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My Latest Oil Report

76K views 164 replies 34 participants last post by  daniel_8888 
#1 ·
You guys might remember my previous oil report from blackstone...

I just hit the 13k mile mark and here is my new report. I think this pretty much confirms that BMW was using a low-zinc break-in oil. What does silicon in the oil have to do with an air filter? I love this car and want to keep it forever. As a result I think I am going to keep with their recommended oil change interval.

Thoughts?

Notes from the report:
This oil was in place longer than the first sample, but wear improved pretty dramatically. This is a good sign that the engine is making its way through the wear-in process. Silicon is also washing out of the system, so we think the air filter is getting the job done. Low insolubles points to good oil filtration. Iron and copper will probably look even better next time. The TBN was a decent 2.6 with anything less than 1.0 being to low for extend use. No fuel or other harmful contaminants were present. Stay around 7,000 miles for now until iron drops a little more. Nice.
 

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#2 ·
I interpert silicon as dirt hence the air filter comment. Initially I've heard it might minor leftovers from casting (hence higher reading on factory fill). Nothing to worry about IMO.

Question: What brand of oil did you use for this sample, and what did you re-fill with?
 
#3 ·
Question: What brand of oil did you use for this sample, and what did you re-fill with?
I got the oil changed at the dealer, both times. At around 10k miles I was a quart low, so I went to the dealer for a top off. Not so funny story, dude tried to top off with oil for a gasoline engine. "I didn't know they made diesel sedans". Good thing I checked.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Your first change was 5470 miles, correct ekay? My own car is just a little below that point now. I was considering doing a "customer pay" change, but since Blackstone confirmed the initial oil is some kind of special "break in" (or otherwise kinda exotic) maybe I might just wait until the one year point comes up and have BMW just do the complimentary "one year no matter how many miles" change...in other words, leave the first oil in for the full interval/or to one year point.

Please tell me what the letters "TBN" stand for?

Interesting how Blackstone commented that your initial oil "had a lot less zinc in it than usual." So yes it does appear to be a special oil. By the way, I have the exact same year/model 335 as the OP. Pretty good chance my sump has the same (initial-first) oil as he, I'd surmise.

Thanks again for the info!

rr-der:)

PS-- Yes, I have also needed a quart of "top off" oil to keep the level at the
top of the dipstick-- and used the specified Castrol CF (diesel approved) product.
That's what will go in at the first change, too.
 
#6 · (Edited)
"Please tell me what the letters "TBN" stand for?"

Total Base Number = TBN

Interestingly they (Blackstone) also does a TAN (Total Acid Number) test but they don't do it for vehicles. I wonder if you can special order that?

The general rule of thumb is that the oil is ready to be changed when TBN (moves downward) meets TAN (moves upward). There's a UOA out there on a X5d which had factory fill analyzed at normal OCI (ie, ~11k miles) and the TAN reading was @ around 4 while the TBN was @ around 1.

I changed out my factory fill at 6,500 miles.

My $.02
 
#7 ·
Silicon can also be present in the oil's additive package when new.

Zinc is also present as it helps the oil hold up to higher pressure, i.e. between moving parts such as bearings and crankshafts.

TBN should be a non-issue since you are running on ULSD. TBN is the additive used to help neutralize the acid forming products of combustion that blow by the piston rings.

In large marine diesels burning HFO, sometimes with Sulphur as high as 3% or even higher, TBN is raised to up to 55. As time goes the additive is depleted and TBN will drop until it reaches an equilibrium point or plateau. This plateau should be reached before 50%of the additive is depleted, or say a TBN of 27.5. If it drops below 50% you need to refresh or change the oil with the higher TBN.

When a diesel engine is burning ULSD, TBN is no longer an issue, there is no more acid forming sulphur to neutralize.

15ppm vs 30,000ppm Sulphur.

TAN is what you should be concerend with I think.
 
#12 ·
Based upon only my own personal limited experience with the 335d, it has consumed Zero lube oil. This means no make up has been added, so no refreshing. Which in itself is an amazing feat for today's modern diesel engines. I recall having to add a quart of oil about every 1-2k miles, betwen leaks and combustion!:p

So, that means there is only dilution and pollution of the oil, meaning it can only get worse as time and miles go by. The filter, if it is doing it's job, will keep particulates under control, because that is all it does. It can not remove acid or other diluted contaminants.

The additive package of the oil has to then handle the rest, which is water (condensation), and products of combustion which forms acids and sludge. Sludge could be retained by the oil filter, and maybe some amount of water.

In the end it is obviously clear by the 15k oil/filter change interval that BMW has extensive faith in their design to warrant this.

The oil analysis I have seen thus far does not confer that one needs to run out and change the lube oil every 5k miles. If it gives you piece of mind, great. I deem it completely unecessary.

Unless you drive in really dirty, dusty conditions, like West Texas or the dessert.:eek:
 
#13 ·
In the end it is obviously clear by the 15k oil/filter change interval that BMW has extensive faith in their design to warrant this.
Well, it certainly does show that they have extensive faith that it will not cause problems during the warranty period.

FWIW, my X35d asked for, and got, an oil change at 9,300 miles, not 15,000. I commented upon it when I took it in for the change, and the service manager said that while he had never seen a gasoline BMW ask for an oil change that soon, it was not uncommon for the diesel BMW's to ask around 10,000 miles.
 
#18 ·
I did a "Break-in" oil change at 2000mi, estimating that I would change it about every 7000mi thereafter. At just over 9000mi, the vehicle indicated it was several hundred mi away from needing an oil change. I had it changed (as part of maintenance program). My SA said he was seeing diesels every 8500-10,000 mi due to the onboard computer requesting it. I was planning on a 7000 mi interval anyway (which is about what I do on my 5er, and the diesel operates at higher temperatures and pressures), but it is good to see the computer agree.

I'm not sure exactly how the computer recognizes that it needs an oil change. I would think that in addition to oil level sensor there is an oil quality sensor which at least checks conductivity (as the oil degrades I understand it gets more acidic and thus conductivity rises). It is not a simple mileage count like on other makes (e.g., toyota).

As an aside, has anyone seen the new ford super duty trucks? I saw a review on autoblog and noticed that they put the DEF input right next to the fuel input.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-ford-f-series-super-duty-first-drive/#2778910

Seems like that approach makes it more convenient to refill than on the x5/335d.
 
#19 ·
I did a "Break-in" oil change at 2000mi, estimating that I would change it about every 7000mi thereafter. At just over 9000mi, the vehicle indicated it was several hundred mi away from needing an oil change. I had it changed (as part of maintenance program). My SA said he was seeing diesels every 8500-10,000 mi due to the onboard computer requesting it. I was planning on a 7000 mi interval anyway (which is about what I do on my 5er, and the diesel operates at higher temperatures and pressures), but it is good to see the computer agree.

I'm not sure exactly how the computer recognizes that it needs an oil change. I would think that in addition to oil level sensor there is an oil quality sensor which at least checks conductivity (as the oil degrades I understand it gets more acidic and thus conductivity rises). It is not a simple mileage count like on other makes (e.g., toyota).

As an aside, has anyone seen the new ford super duty trucks? I saw a review on autoblog and noticed that they put the DEF input right next to the fuel input.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-ford-f-series-super-duty-first-drive/#2778910

Kestrel,

Did you reset your service interval when you did the oil change? If not the computer has no idea you did change the oil so is still running from zero miles.

We need to get some input on what drives the service interval, but I doubt it will be the oil level or some other more sophisticated oil sensor or oil analysis. I beleive it will just be how hard you drive the "D" in regards to engine rpm, miles, acceleration, and perhaps temperatures (of what I don't know). Acidity should not actually increase since the additive is in there to neutralize it. What you look for is how much excess additive (TBN) is still in there to react with the acid forming products of combustion. That is why typically you don't want the TBN to drop lower than 50% of new oil. Once you deplete the TBN then the acids will be able to attack engine parts.

Oil level most likely will only active your SES or Check Engine light, i.e. an idiot light.:slap:

As for the DEF, I think BMW did this as an after thought since they weren't originally making these cars for the US Market, no DEF in the rest of the world.

The Ford was made for the US Market from the get go.
 
#20 ·
I stand corrected! :slap: See info below from a user's site

Some vehicle manufacturers estimate oil by using mathematical algorithms. The oil monitor keeps track of hours of engine operation, temperature, distance traveled and so on to estimate how much oil life is left. When a certain point is reached, the oil service reminder light comes on.

BMW uses an “adaptive” strategy to compute estimated oil life based on how much fuel the vehicle has consumed (which BMW says is more accurate than tracking the number of miles driven and hours of engine *operation). The CBS system also considers input from an oil quality sensor in the bottom of the oil pan. The oil quality sensor measures the electrical conductivity of the oil. As the additives in the oil wear out, the *resistance of the fluid changes.



The maximum service interval on late-model BMWs with this system is 25,000 km (15,500 miles, which the driver information display rounds up to read 16,000 miles). As the CBS system tracks fuel usage, it deducts mileage in 1,000-mile chunks from the remaining oil life. When there is an estimated 1,250 miles of oil life left, or if the oil quality sensor indicates a change is due sooner, the service reminder light comes on, and the oil status indicator changes color from green to yellow. Keep in mind that the 15,500-mile oil change *interval is based on using BMW’s High Performance 5W-30 synthetic oil, not ordinary oil. Also, most of these engines hold 7, 8 or 9 quarts of oil, depending on their crankcase capacity.

It isn’t clear whether BMW takes into consideration wear factors that accumulate with normal driving. A 15,500-mile oil change interval may be okay for a low-mileage engine with no piston ring or cylinder wear, but what about an engine with 100,000 or 150,000 miles on the odometer? Such long oil change intervals with a high-mileage engine that has more blowby and wear than a new engine may be asking for trouble.
 
#22 · (Edited)
IThe CBS system also considers input from an oil quality sensor in the bottom of the oil pan. The oil quality sensor measures the electrical conductivity of the oil. As the additives in the oil wear out, the *resistance of the fluid changes.
Actually, the sensor BMW uses measures permittivity via changes in the effective capacitance, not resistance.

While I am certain of the capacitance, having read it in BMW service documents, I am not 100% sure of their sensor source, but I believe it is a version of Continental's QLT Sensor:

(Page 83 of this catalog)
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automotive/general/contact_services/downloads/passenger_cars/powertrian/common/pow_powertrain_products_pdf_en.pdf
 
#27 ·
Don't want to start another oil thread...
Today, on my usual way to work, I got low oil warning. Pulled to the parking lot turned of the engine, gave about 5min and checked with the dipstick; the oil shows fine - mid point between max/min. Warning went away after restarting, wonder what's up with that.
 
#28 ·
Sounds like intermittent sensor or wiring harness issue(s). Which is why I personally want to have an oil dipstick - to confirm whether I have a real problem or just a virtual one. I bet you weren't exactly stressed out over the warning once you were able to check the real oil level.
 
#30 ·
It would seem in this day and age of high tech gadgets, we often get these false warnings, they either reset themselves or when you reset it manually it goes away. You tend to lose confidence in the technology.

I wonder what the pilots of these high tech drive by wire airplanes must go through?:dunno:

Generally you want to beleive the sensors are right, but when it is intermittent, that can really throw you off.

If I got the low oil alarm and my actual oil was midway between H and L, I think I would be tempted to go ahead and top it off to be on the safe side.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I got my latest analysis... I guess I am not too worried. the numbers are so low that it is probably okay to get an oil change every interval per the computer.

Running this oil 11,355 miles may have been just a little too long. Iron accumulated to the point that it may have become abrasive to aluminum and lead, the softer metals in your engine. Aluminum typically comes from pistons and lead shows bearing wear. The good news is that neither metal is so high that your engine will have suffered too much as a result of the excess wear. The oil itself held up nicely. The viscosity is still normal, and the TBN shows active additive left at 1.9. Probably ~10,000 miles will be the optimal oil change for this BMW.
 

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#44 · (Edited)
Well as we're showing each others, here is mine. Blackstone also completely mucked up the engine info on mine listing it as a 3.5L M30 gasoline. This was 6700 miles on the oil, 16K on the engine. Eveything well in spec except Iron and Copper which are high due to still breaking in. Blackstone is suggesting once fully broken in the oil is good for the 13K mile interval. And that very well may be true, but for about $70 for a mid-cycle (DIY) oil change on a $50K+ car, I'll sleep just a little better.
 

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#46 · (Edited)
My Aluminum, Iron and Copper #s were 11, 49 & 7. But that's on an engine with 44K miles, (after 7120 miles on the oil) so I think you can discount the break-in theory.

My TBN was 2, and viscosity and everything else was fine.

Anyone have any theories about the high metallic content in these samples? Seems like the oil is lasting well but what's up with the wear? Should we running a higher viscosity?

Got the revised report: "Amended report showing correct engine type. Wear metals are a little higher than universal averages in this sample, but there's not anything here we'd consider a problem at this point.
Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about 5,700 miles on the oil. This oil was in use longer than that, which would certainly explain some of this extra wear.
The viscosity was mildly thick for 5W/30, but that usually doesn't hurt anything. The TBN was 2.0 showing plenty of active additive; less than 1.0 is low. Try 9,000 miles on the next oil."
 
#49 ·
I'm no expert (neither are the "comments writers" at Blackstone), but these UOA's look very good to me. I don't know why exactly but the passenger car diesel UOA's I've seen (here and on the BITOG oil forum) always show relatively high wear metals, particularly when the engines are breaking in. Tighter tolerances? Different metallurgy? And based on what I've seen on the VW TDI diesel forum, the break-in period seems to be rather long - - around 50-60k miles.

If you're UOA-anal, there is a sticky on the VW TDI forum here - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=154548. About 170 pages of diesel UOA's. Start at the end and work backwards to see the UOA's of diesels (around 2009 and later 2.0 liter TDI's) that are the most similar to our 3.0 six in the BMW.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I disagree with the oft-stated view that our BMWs are not up to the oil change interval spec'd by the factory. This is the view held by most of the folks on the various forums for gas BMW's where anybody that goes 15-18k miles on a oci is viewed as some sort of cretan whose BMW will surely self-destruct by the time it hits 50-75k mi. Exactly the opposite view is held on the TDI forum where anybody that shortens the 10k mi factory oci on a TDI is viewed as a paranoid idiot. Keep in mind that the sump capacity on the 2.0 liter four cylinder TDI is only four liters of oil. In Europe the factory oci on the same car running the same oil is 18k mi. (30,000 kilometers). I came across a UOA for a euro TDI that was done at 17k mi (27k km) and the car had 120k mi (190k km) on the clock. The lab thought it looked great, too (ppm iron was only around 130+)!

I think our 335d's can do a 10-13k mi oci without even breaking a sweat. Trust in the cbs monitor.

FWIW, I'd recommend not doing an early "break-in" oil change to wash out wear metals, if you haven't already done so. It's no big deal if you have. There's a chance that the factory fill has some special additives - - a break-in oil in other words. The factory fill on our 335d's is a FUCHS oil. FUCHS is known in Europe as the "factory fill specialist" (they were chosen to formulate the oil for the Rolls Royce engines in the Concorde - - one of the most powerful jet engines ever and they only made 63 of them - - that's really being a fill specialist). The tell-tale is the lack of any zinc in the BMW factory fill - - deliberately so as to keep unwanted deposits down. Somehow FUCHS has figured out how to separate the zinc from the active anti-wear agent phosphorous in the zddp. Someone on the TDI forum who visited the VW engine factory in Germany was told that the diesels were filled with a FUCHS oil and was advised not to change the oil before its first scheduled 10k oil change. So, I'd recommend not trying to second-guess BMW's oci's.

Here's a link to a FUCHS oil that is probably pretty close to the factory fill - http://www.thedieselstore.com/template/productOutput.php?partNum=VWA452491A&VehNum=1117792. It carries the BMW LL04 approval and might be worth a try after the free BMW oil changes run out. It's very clean - - would form very low level of deposits (good for the turbo).
 
#50 ·
I'm no expert ......

I think our 335d's can do a 10-13k mi oci without even breaking a sweat. Trust in the cbs monitor.....
M6pwr, You say you're not an expert but sounds like you know more than many of us (including the lab rats at Blackstone).

I agree that the BMW OCI is fine for some driving conditions such as for those who drive a lot, and routinely get the engine good and hot to burn off moisture and impurities. But if you are one to drive the car 5 miles each way to work every day and that's about it, the factory recommend OCI will only result in a badly sludged engine.

And while the engine is quite tough and durable, not so sure the turbochargers (bearings) that share that same oil are. So back to my original statement; the extra changes are probably not needed, but on a $50K+ car, it certainly will not hurt, and gives me a little more piece of mind.
 
#52 · (Edited)
Hold on. I was just giving the 5 miles each way as an extreme example, that's not how we drive the car :yikes: Right now we are in the order of 15K miles a year.

Actually my commute is 14 feet. I work from home :thumbup:

Unless the newest BMWs are different, the OCI is not all that sophisticated. I know for our 10 year old BMW's it's based on fuel consumption. The harder your drive the car, the shorter the OCI mileage will be. It seems as at least my D, is based purely on mileage as it is tracking to be exactly 13K miles.

I have been using the in-between oil changes for a decade on our gas BMWs. When the valve covers are pulled, they are almost sparkling clean inside. They are both at about 145K miles now.

And I am using a mighty-vac topsider for oil changes. It does require that you fix them when new before you can use it, so not necessarily a recommendation.

Cheers
 
#53 ·
Well, you really had me going on a tear. I'm afraid I get down in the weeds when it comes to lubes - - a fascinating subject for me.

I used to do shortened oci's too for a long time (18 BMWs), back in the good old days of dino lubes and bias ply tires, and before BMWNA when the Monroney sticker on BMWs said Hoffman Motors. But man's understanding of how oil performs inside an internal combustion engine has improved significantly since then. Just remember that when you change the oil you are dumping lube that has reached an All-Pro level of performance with one that is a rank rookie that will take several thousand miles before it can figure out which way is up, particularly in combating wear - http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. But, don't worry - - BMW motors are tough - - they can take the abuse of too frequent oil changes!

I believe in keeping the All-Pro in the lineup as long as possible.

Are you an F 1 fan? You plan on going to the Weehawken Grand Prix next year? I hope it takes place. The sound of a naturally-aspirated motor twisting at 19,000 rpm is unbelievable. And that'll be the last year for that sound. They're going to go V-6 turbos in 2014. The organizers of the F 1 race to take place this year in Austin, TX just announced ticket prices: grandstand tickets start at $2500. They must think it's the Super Bowl. I'll miss that one.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Can't think that far ahead to consider the Weehawkin GP (about 35 miles from where I live). But if tickets are $2500, I do not have to think about it at all!

Back to oil. I fully agree the oil, in itself, is good for the mileage indicated by BMW. But it's what the oil is holding, which in the case of the diesel includes suspended soot, that I am concerned about. Have seen way too many examples of OCI driven oil changes with short driving distances to yield an engine that is nothing but a solid block of goo when the valve cover is removed. And as I said before, we now have delicate turbo bearings to worry about. I might be convinced to do 10K miles, but 13K is getting past my comfort zone.

I maintain my cars as if I will be keeping them forever. I buy, do not lease, When maintenance is all on me, I may do the 10K. But for now when there are the included changes at 13K, if going to do extra ones, makes most sense to do it 1/2 between.

This is what I am talking about. My 2000 328i with 140K miles (which I recently gave to my son making room for the D), BMW synthetic every 8K miles. Nothing was cleaned for the picture (cover gasket still stuck to the head)



 
#57 ·
I just re-read some of the uoa's in this thread and think they are great. Ekay's uoa (the oil was run to 11,355 mi.) is particularly of interest and confirms in my mind that taking the oil out to the cbs oil change interval is possible. Ekay's uoa is really very good. That oil was in great shape and still had reserve TBN. I'd bet that if Ekay had done a uoa on this oil at around 3 or 4k, it would have been substantially the same, except with higher TBN of course. Just my theory. I'd take Blackstone's comments about the wear metals with a grain of salt. As someone noted above, interpretation of wear metals can be tricky. Even so, the wear metals look great - - even the ppm iron (you should see some of the iron counts on the VW TDI board on euro TDI's which are run to 18k mi oci's).

I hope I wasn't out of line, but I sent an email to the forum admin recommending that this thread be made a sticky, as a central place so we can continue to post our uoa's.
 
#59 ·
I have to reiterate, I'm no expert, but I'll try to explain what I know. The short answer is no - - the TBN should never be allowed to reach 0 and the TAN starts to build well before the TBN ever reaches 0.

TAN is the concentration of acid products in the oil. It is not a measure of the acidity of the oil as if it were an acid bath. Nevertheless, if TAN gets high enough, corrosive wear can take place. With modern oils, fresh, unused oil can have an acid number/TAN right out of the bottle because it contains some acid products - - some of the additives are acidic, particularly magnesium which is being used increasingly as an antacid in place of calcium (which lays down more unwanted deposits). In addition to these acid products in the oil, the acid number begins to build as soon as the oil is in use. Oxidation and nitration will raise the TAN as the oil ages.

TBN or total base number is a measure of the reserve alkalinity of the oil - - its ability to neutralize or take up acidic components in the oil. The TBN starts to drop as soon as the oil is in use.

Now comes the question of how do you use these numbers (and other key indicators in the used oil analysis) to figure out when to change the oil (the so-called condemnation point). By coincidence there's an article on just this topic in the May issue of Tribology and Lubrication Technology magazine. The bottom line: there's no agreement at all on this. There are three "players" in this discussion: the oil analysis labs, the lube mfrs, and the engine mfrs. The labs will give you their cp's when they do your used oil analysis (uoa). The labs don't all agree on the same cp's. The engine mfrs and the lube mfrs do a lot of collaborative testing/research to come up with their cp's for a specific engine but these are not widely published - - they are in effect hidden in the oem's prescribed oil change interval and the oil life monitors/software, if so equipped. The oem's cp's are probably the best.

There's an interesting discussion of this topic here - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1675009. Doug Hillary (one of the commenters in the thread) is a very experienced euro-based lubrication engineer who has decades of experience with Castrol and Mobil. He knows some of the oem's cp's. The cp Hillary uses for TAN/TBN "see saw" as he calls it is TAN = 6, TBN = 2.
 
#63 ·
Guys,

I've contacted Blackstone Oil Lab and spoke with Ryan Stark about gathering up all of the 335D and X5D oil analyses. He would look into it and advise.

Meantime, if you have done any oil analysis, please post them here so we can start gathering the data and compare in a more scientific manner.

And if you are thinking of doing it, let us know and let Ryan Stark know you are from the Bimmerfest Diesel Owner's Group.:thumbup:
 
#65 ·
Senna,

How are you taking your oil sample? You have a pump kit?

I just ordered one from BS for $30. key is to take the sample while the engine oil is still hot.

I'm at about 600 miles since my last oil change so waiting to reach 1,000 miles to take my first.

Your sample looks pretty good but i'm a bit confused about your oil viscosity. Was it too high to be a 5W30 or was it closer to a 10W60?

The high Iron may really not be an issue given the high miles on the oil. Iron is going to gradually accumulate over time and i suspect it might even be a bit linear based on miles on the oil. The key is really particles, size, and distribution, which this analysis doesn't really look at.
 
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