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#1 · (Edited by Moderator)


The latest episode of "Head 2 Head" from Motor Trend is a battle of the little luxury sixes, looking to see which of these $50,000 sport sedans, all equipped with automatic transmissions, can lay the largest claim to your money: the 321-horsepower, six-speed Cadillac ATS 3.6, the 302-horsepower, seven-speed Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport or the 300-horsepower, eight-speed BMW 335i.
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/motor-trend-goes-head-to-head-to-head-in-cadillac-ats-3-6/
 
#6 ·
It doesn't matter.

Motor Trend is in the magazine business. You sell a lot more magazines when you print a controversial story, and there's nothing more predictable than BMW winning a sport sedan comparo.

The F30 is a bigger, softer version of it's prior forms and it's to be expected that so-called "enthusiast" rags won't see the value in it. BMW has built the car to the specs that it's customers want, and clearly their customers want a softer ride with a boatload of creature comforts. No such comparo for that.

BJ
 
#3 · (Edited)
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future. :)
 
#10 · (Edited)
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.
You should of seen this coming when they introduced the F01 7 series. It was only a matter of time that it trickled down the line. The average age of BMW owners is somewhere around 47. I think BMW is exactly where it wants to be for awhile. They've completely changed their cars to signify this.
 
#4 ·
I think BMW should have left the 3 and 5 Series alone, and continued their traditions as sport sedans. If they wanted to attract buyers who want a more comfortable ride, and things like Luxury line models, then they should have introduced that with the 4 Series, the redesigned 6 Series and the 7 Series.
 
#8 ·
I think BMW knows what it's doing. They have decades of sales information, millions of datapoints, they know how to build the precise cars that their customers want.

Last time I looked, the F30 was performing very well, the MB is no different than it was in years past, and the ATS isn't selling.

Every curve, every dimension, every feature on the F30 is there because that's what BMW's customers told them they wanted. Do not question the car or it's intended buyers. You aren't one of them. You're not the target audience. If you liked the car, it would be a shock. The fact that you detest it is precisely what's supposed to happen.

BJ
 
#5 ·
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/motor-trend-goes-head-to-head-to-head-in-cadillac-ats-3-6/
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ
 
#7 ·
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.
I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ
Just checked KBB for the value of my car with 5,000 miles. It's still worth more than you paid for yours. $50,603
 
#14 · (Edited)
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right? Check out "Competitive Benchmarking" section in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS

More articles from MT interviewing Cadillac

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2012/1112_2012_detroit_2013_cadillac_ats_first_look/

The review hits on what the previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback has been on the F30.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package. :)
 
#16 ·
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right?

The review has been hitting the forum readers previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package. :)
Yeah, The M Sport stuff will help make the steering feel go from 'light and boring' to 'give your muscles a work out and boring'. :thumbup: :rofl:
 
#24 ·
sorry but part of why i buy a car depends on looks too. the benz on the inside is still ancient, i can't get past the ATS's ugly dated body, and i would get the 335 in a heartbeat. followed by the benz, and stick in a volvo (yes i said volvo) or audi before the ATS. all in the same class of course.
 
#50 ·
I've owned at least one of each from the E30 on. I had 2 E46's, including a 330i and an M3.
I don't think the E46 was the pinnacle at all. The E36 was lighter and had a more connected feel. My E30 was simple, very light, and a blast to drive. It came standard with limited slip diff. The I6 (post ETA) engine had some of the best mechanical sounds ever. My E46 330i had a lot of problems; all of them well documented by others on these boards. As a whole, I'd say it was a solid car, but kind of boring. My M3 was a great track car but poorly suited as a daily driver. My E92, one HPFP not withstanding, has been by far the most reliable of all the BMW's I've owned. I also found it capable of filling the shoes of both my old 330 and my M3. Not perfect, but pretty darned good. IMO, each generation has had its strength and weaknesses, but on the whole, the 3 series has moved forward and kept up with the times and mostly ahead of the competition throughout the years. I'm sure BMW will make appropriate adjustments to address the points of the MT comparo(such as they are). It isn't the first time a 3 series lost, and usually by the next model year, they were right back on top.
 
#38 ·
I was driving in my car with the top down today (which has a black interior) and was thinking how much I liked it over the lighter options that have several colors going on in the interior and kinda look too busy.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52) :rofl:

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Track comparisons are good up to a point but IMO the way the behave drive on public roads is far more relevant to the way these cars will be driven in the real world.
 
#44 ·
#47 ·
Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Florida dealers have been playing that game for years. I think they call it the "Black Book". Most dealers that I've dealt with here in PA work off of KBB dealer trade prices for a clean well maintained car (aside from negotiating for the price of the new car). They will only offer auction prices for cars that are less desirable. If I were to sell my BMW, I would sell it to a private party. I also have the extended warranty which would make my car more desirable.
 
#54 ·
#55 ·
OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Stop touting it as some kind of drivers car.

My OLD E36/7 has tons of feel, feedback, sound, and has no driving aids other than ABS if you want to call it that. It's still heavy at 2950-3050lbs. But it's pure and nothing E9x without a roof can touch it. I am not even factoring in straight line as my 13lbs of boost has really skewed the equation. Looks, the E93 also gets slayed. I see them all day driven by women. My M Roadster was not even offered with an automatic and the lines, oh how well they have aged. I have had people ask me if it's "The new Z" semi-regularly.

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Whatever floats your boat, but, I thought the M Roadster was a "girls" car as they were the only ones who could fit comfortably? M Roadsters for the girls and Corvettes for the men!

We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.
 
#59 · (Edited)
I have never put down the F30 as I have never driven one. Even if I did my opinion would certainy carry no weight since the fact that I have an E93 (M3) that does not have an MT outs me as a non-enthusiast.

I am sure the F30 is a very good car but the fact of the matter is that a large number of professional car reviesers have commented that the F30 has lost a some of what they considered to be traditional BMW feel. Perhaps they are full of crap but I think this is a subject that warrants discussion as a significant number of people who drive E9x will be on the market for a new car in the near future and will certainly be looking at the F30 and its competitors.
 
#63 ·
I have never put down the F30 as I have never driven one. Even if I did my opinion would certainy carry no weight since the fact that I have an E93 (M3) that does not have an MT outs me as a non-enthusiast.

I am sure the F30 is a very good car but the fact of the matter is that a large number of professional car reviesers have commented that the F30 has lost a some of what they considered to be traditional BMW feel. Perhaps they are full of crap but I think this is a subject that warrants discussion as a significant number of people who drive E9x will be on the market for a new car in the near future and will certainly be looking at the F30 and its competitors.
That's all well and good.

It's fine if the F30 has lost a bit of that feedback.

But that can be said for EVERY generation since the E30.

I can find flaws in every car I have ever driven. It's ok.

But at least I have driven it, and or a lot of cars that it competes with before spouting my judgement.

Reading a magazine and then making statements of your own as fact is very annoying around here.

I am not saying you are doing it, but keep in mind between 2-3 forums there are 30 threads like these.
 
#72 ·
James is playing out of his league.
 
#92 ·
Input from someone who has recently been car shopping.....with an open mind.

I drove new leftover '11 E90 335i....fell in love with it.

They wouldn't lease the '11, so I drove 2012 F30 328. Meh. It was good "for a 4 banger"...but it needed that qualifying statement.

Dealer finally gets F30 335....back in love. Rocket ship. Tight handling. Quiet when it needs to be....beautiful music when you want it.

Read accolade after accolade about the ATS...wait and wait. Dealer finally gets one in. Much much better looking in person than in pics....but I am sorry - it still has too much "old man" aura about it....tied in with a pinch of "plastic-ey feel" that gives American cars such a bad reputation. The handling was quite good - but far from great.

I enjoyed getting back in my IS350 to leave the dealer....much more fun to drive than the ATS. Conversely....when I left the 335 test drive....I was yearning for a new car.

Drove A4....enjoyed the hell out of it....but their leases are similar to a 335....with 100 less HP. The leases on an S4 were not in the same realm as the BMW....by a long shot. (the Audis depreciate much faster....hence the larger payments)

MB wasn't in the picture - for me - I still think of old people when I think of Mercedes (just like Cadillac). I appreciate both brands....but I think both are fighting to change that image . Neither has won that battle yet. I am their demographic - 44 year old male.

Drove my IS350 (very under rated car) home and placed an order for a 335 Xdrive which is on the Rigel Leader as we speak.

Sold my Lexus and took my time in my research (2 months or so).

If you are a 'leaser' BMW is by far the best bang for the buck - IMHO. They depreciate the least of ALL the competition.....which makes for a more competitive lease. If I was buying the car....the S4 would have entered into the picture much more heavily.
 
#97 · (Edited)
We own a 2011 S4 and it is a great car. I don't agree that they depreciate faster than the 3 Series BMW because Audi does not make many of them. BMW subsidizes leases by providing a higher residual which is the reason why you get cheaper lease rates. Audi does not.
 
#96 ·
side note: The guy in the review falls much more into the "hipster douche" category than the "motor head" or "enthusiast" category. I give him zero credibility. He drove the cars on different days (different shirt on in different cars). He probably had too much Hummus in his egg white and tofurky omelette on the day he drove the Bimmer

The Carlos Lago Motor Trend Review on You Tube is much more in tune with reality
 
#111 ·
side note: The guy in the review falls much more into the "hipster douche" category than the "motor head" or "enthusiast" category. I give him zero credibility.
Well said !!! :thumbup: Any reviewer who rates a C350 ahead of a F30-335i is an ignorant fool. Until recently, my wife owned a C350 and now drives a 2011 E93. When comparing driving dynamics, the C350 doesn't even come close to either E9X-335i or F30-335i. The C350 is a capable highway cruiser, but it is most certainly not a car for enthusiasts.

As for that Cadillac, I would not wish to be caught dead in one. Having driven BMWs since 1984, I admit I'm slightly biased, but I recognize ugly styling when I see it ! One of many reasons why the ATS is not flying off the lot !

Meanwhile, sales of F30 are increasing and my BMW shares are appreciating ! Bravo to the designers and engineers of the F30-335i M Sport ! It is a truly fabulous machine ! :thumbup:
 
#100 ·
CTS sales nosediving thanks to new ATS, so GM will cut output

Cadillac designed the compact ATS to compete with the BMW 3 Series, but GM says the new Caddy is also cutting into CTS sales. Edmunds.com backs that up with data showing potential buyers are cross-shopping the ATS with the CTS as well as the BMW.

Automotive News spoke to the head of Cadillac sales, Chase Hawkins, who admits The General expected the ATS to cannibalize sales of the CTS. But Hawkins says a plan is in place to deal with the drop in CTS sales: make fewer of them.

"We've planned for ATS to take some CTS customers out of the market who we otherwise would have seen," Hawkins tells AN. "We definitely are going to be producing fewer CTSes next year to create some of that space for ATS."

The next-generation CTS is expected to be larger and costlier, which should better separate the two stablemates in the marketplace. As the two models find their own niches, AN speculates a few more import buyers to come back to the iconic American brand.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/25/cts-sales-nosediving-thanks-to-new-ats-so-gm-will-cut-output/
 
#103 ·
Cutting and pasting what I posted in the E46 forum on 1 of the threads regarding the 3 series evolution. Care to agree or disagree?

This probably sums it up on the 3 series line of evolution in regards to US models:

E21= great entry into the sport compact luxury line, a smaller version of the 3.0 csl. Underpowered with the I4 but still a great chassis. Lots of quirks and rattles. Typical of a new model entry. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E30= huge leap in technology and refinement going into the 80-90s, took advantage of better EFI, abs, LSD, disc brakes, chassis tuning. IMHO, the crown jewel & best 3 series from BMW in terms of authentic driving experience with no artificial driving assists. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E36= another leap in technology, design and refinement, took advantage of OBD I & II, I6 engine only, VANOS. Carried over most of the technology advancements from the E30. The last mostly mechanical/hydraulic 3 series BMW built.

E46= great refinement above the previous model but not a leap. Fixed the quirks and rawness of the E36 such as the rattles and loose parts that would occur over time. Took advantage of Double VANOS, more advanced and refined suspension nannies- asc/dsc, abs; however it eliminated the LSD on everything except the M3. Fly-by-wire technology added which detracted the linear response of the older mechanical/hydraulic system; added a delay in response and precision but was minimal compared to the E9x with variable steering. IMHO, this was the best and most refined compromise for an authentic classic driving experience with minimal electronic nannies assistance. Used I6 engines only.

E9x= target market -> mainstream, totally different path towards the evolution of the 3 series. Took advantage of FI engines- turbocharging, variable steering, adaptive suspension, stiffer chassis even if the body got longer, bigger and heavier. The FI engines are great masterpieces, best part of the E9x evolution. They responded similar to an 8 cylinder engine with the fuel economy of a 6. The stiffer chassis made great improvements in limit driving & safety; however, the driving experience became too harsh with not enough refinement or feedback (whole car dynamics was skewed). It felt like they couldn't find the perfect balance with the engine, chassis & suspension that the E46 perfectly refined from the E36. Suspension tuning was geared for the more aggressive, probably to also compensate for the FI engines. Steering input added variable steering which added to the non-linear feel of the fly-by-wire along with more loss of precision; probably over compensation by the new tech. The interior was revamped to the more common driver oriented full controls vs the all passenger concept of keeping all the controls accessible from the center of the car. Since it was their first foray it was expectedly low quality for a first effort. Cabin insulation also seemed to be increased so external decibel levels weren't as high; numbing the sensory experience. However sometimes you need to hear the tire squeals and engine revs as a confirmation of what your hands and feet are feeling.

F9x= target market -> even more mainstream Lexus crowd. New technology are turbocharged I4, adjustable situational settings, regenerative braking, auto start/stop, dynamic handling (variable steering assist & adaptive suspension). The F30 is the closest thing to a Swiss Army knife BMW, it allows you to customize your ride depending on your driving style an mood. Unfortunately, due to this please all target it compromised on the BMW driving experience of old- the sportiest setting isn't close to the ultra aggressive E9x or the perfectly refined E46 or raw E30. It sort of falls in between the E90 and E46; imho, this is due to the extra size and weight gain of the car. The current F30 is as big and heavy as the old E39 5 series from the early 2000s. The dynamic handling package is great for people who don't make the driving experience a priority and rely on the electronic nannies to make them a better driver. The interior has improved with the F30, way better than the E90. All in all the F30 is a good all around car which just needs improvement on the top end sporty experience.
 
#114 · (Edited)
We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked the C250 at Palm Beach International Airport. It would have been about $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed.

FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30. But overall it is a very nice car that I am sure most of those who own one are happy with.


CA
 
#115 ·
We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked up my car. I inquired about it but it would have been close to $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed. FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30.
You should have rented a Corvette. I used to take my ZO6 to Stuart and up through Melbourne and would get people waving and giving me the thumbs up everywhere I went. Those areas are largely populated by fans of US performance cars. :thumbup:
 
#134 ·
lol, Consumer Reports. Written by the Elderly, for the Elderly. Their recommendations match their business model- stuck in 1993.

The same joke Annual Car review editions which recommend Toyota for purchase which they haven't tested not have even been delivered to the US yet. And the massive Toyota recalls, what are those? Who was the last to figure out the disastrous Civic changes, Yep CR. After all if it was good in the 90's it still must be good. Thankfully most knowledge buyers under 60 ignore CR altogether now.
 
#137 ·
lol, Consumer Reports. Written by the Elderly, for the Elderly. Their recommendations match their business model- stuck in 1993.

The same joke Annual Car review editions which recommend Toyota for purchase which they haven't tested not have even been delivered to the US yet. And the massive Toyota recalls, what are those? Who was the last to figure out the disastrous Civic changes, Yep CR. After all if it was good in the 90's it still must be good. Thankfully most knowledge buyers under 60 ignore CR altogether now.
CR has a big say among those who veiw cars as appliances and which ones give them most value. The majority of the drivers out there view a car as another appliance. This is in part why Toyota is one of the best sellers, and continues to increase sales ahead of other brands. It was not just good in the 90's, it is good today, and into the future.

Fortunately for BMW and many other brands, there are a lot of people who view their cars more than just appliances.
 
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