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Thanks guys for all your help but leaving BMW

7K views 73 replies 29 participants last post by  jjsC6 
#1 ·
This community has been so valuable, great contributions and advice. Helped me navigate my first purchase an e60 535 sport 6 spd picked up through ED. Then 2 yrs later another ED an e93 M3. Two outstanding cars. A year ago got a new F10 550x M Sport and it was a disappointment in so many ways. Beautiful, yes, a BMW in terms of driving, no way. The steering was numb and non communicative, road feel and handling were sub par at best. Other important features such as seat design took a huge step back from the previous model. (anyone remember how nice it was that the side wings hugged your side when u started the car? You felt ready to drive. The new seat is a far cry from before). And let's not even get started on the RFT failures! I sold the car this past week at a large loss. MSRP was over 81k, dealer offers ranged from 50k at carmax to 55-57 k at 3 different BMW dealers and finally 58k at a Porsche dealer.

I don't and never will buy a car for its ornament on the hood. Just bc there is aroundel on the hood does not fool me into thinking these are the UDM anymore. They have become the ultimate luxobarge machines and are much more Lexus than sport, which is evident on multiple poor reviews on handling. I was invited to an autos how preview prior to it opening and had a chance to speak with a BMW exec from nj and I voiced my displeasure. He admitted they were very well aware of the issues with their new cars and Munich is working on fixing it. I really hope he's right.

So where to next? Not sure. Looking into either a refreshed S4 that came out this month or an S6. Have not driven the later but the A6 is fantastic so let's see how the S6 turns out.

Again thanks everyone. I hope to be back soon once the brand comes back to its roots.
 
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#2 ·
Good luck. Please post here on the new ride you get and the comparisons to the 550.
 
#3 ·
This community has been so valuable, great contributions and advice. Helped me navigate my first purchase an e60 535 sport 6 spd picked up through ED. Then 2 yrs later another ED an e93 M3. Two outstanding cars. A year ago got a new F10 550x M Sport and it was a disappointment in so many ways. Beautiful, yes, a BMW in terms of driving, no way. The steering was numb and non communicative, road feel and handling were sub par at best. Other important features such as seat design took a huge step back from the previous model. (anyone remember how nice it was that the side wings hugged your side when u started the car? You felt ready to drive. The new seat is a far cry from before). And let's not even get started on the RFT failures! I sold the car this past week at a large loss. MSRP was over 81k, dealer offers ranged from 50k at carmax to 55-57 k at 3 different BMW dealers and finally 58k at a Porsche dealer.

I don't and never will buy a car for its ornament on the hood. Just bc there is aroundel on the hood does not fool me into thinking these are the UDM anymore. They have become the ultimate luxobarge machines and are much more Lexus than sport, which is evident on multiple poor reviews on handling. I was invited to an autos how preview prior to it opening and had a chance to speak with a BMW exec from nj and I voiced my displeasure. He admitted they were very well aware of the issues with their new cars and Munich is working on fixing it. I really hope he's right.

So where to next? Not sure. Looking into either a refreshed S4 that came out this month or an S6. Have not driven the later but the A6 is fantastic so let's see how the S6 turns out.

Again thanks everyone. I hope to be back soon once the brand comes back to its roots.
please test drive your next car so in a year's time you wont be signing off from the Audi or Porsche or MB post, essentially lamenting your lack of research.

you say that you don't buy things for the ornament, but you would have been able to judge most of your chief concerns before buying the car (and the others you could have checked the boards on). also, "reviews" of cars are pretty biased and may or may not appeal to your sensibilities. just like movie reviews. i love AO scott personally

sorry you had a bad experience. hopefully you'll be much more thorough so you don't cost yourself thousands next time!
 
#4 ·
I have the same car (although mine has the Dinan Stage 2) and I have to agree that the steering communicativeness, road feel and handling big are all a big step back from the E60. That being said, I am addicted to my car's acceleration and speed which make my E60 550 M Sport feel very slow. I do hope that BMW improves these deficits on the LCI because some of the essence of what makes a BMW special in term of driving feel is not in the F10. Bottom line: the car needs a major diet.
 
#30 ·
I have the same car (although mine has the Dinan Stage 2) and I have to agree that the steering communicativeness, road feel and handling big are all a big step back from the E60. That being said, I am addicted to my car's acceleration and speed which make my E60 550 M Sport feel very slow. I do hope that BMW improves these deficits on the LCI because some of the essence of what makes a BMW special in term of driving feel is not in the F10. Bottom line: the car needs a major diet.
thank goodness it wasn't just me - I test-drove the F10 last Saturday - and I got out thinking "hmmm... not sure I like that" - after 5 minutes back into my E60, I was sure - the F10 just didn't "do it for me" - yes, it is a nice car, but I felt so disconnected... and with any mode apart from Sport+ it felt "floaty"... I am so glad to hear others say similar things.

On the acceleration I test drove the same as I have - a 535i xdrive compared to the same in F10 - I wasn't "blown away" by the off the line compared to mine... it felt maybe a hair faster... but not *that* much... of course the 550 is a completely different kettle of fish and I can't speak to that comparison.

I'm actually thinking that in a couple of years I'll just that the '10 model M5 and wait for them to fix the F10 issues LCI as you mentioned.
 
#7 ·
It is very sad but BMW is no longer the ultimate driver's machine like the older e39 fives. That is why so many of us are holding our old fives as long as we can afford to. No amount of research will let know how your new car will be on a daily basis. I drove my 2000 528 over 100 miles on five test drives, I discovered things not shown on the test drive. 12 years later I still have the car!!
 
#8 · (Edited)
a quick look at the specs (for the weight) and a drive (to get a sense of the steering, road handling) wouldnt give this guy the added understanding that this happens to be a different car than an e60 or e39??

i swear, sometimes ignorance deserves to be punished
 
#9 · (Edited)
good luck
S6 probably will be be much sportier than 550 xi M/ i looked at preliminary reviews on line/
and may be overall better car to drive time will tell
i hope than in LCI BMW will listen to their base and drop weight in 550 xi version/very nose heavy/ in particular to make it more worthy competitor of s6
 
#14 ·
also look for a 2003 540 , not an m-5 but a very good car, those are still around. Not the performance of an m , but at least as good as the f-10. Most likely better from a driver's perspective.
Well I actually had a 2003 550i M Sport. And now I have a 2012 550xi M Sport with Dinan stage II. My E39 540i M Sport was a much more fun driver's car. Certainly nowhere near as fast as my F10 but so much more driver involvement and road feel. To meet the E39 was the best five series BMW has ever built. And that's coming from someone who has owned a V8 E39, E 60 and an F10.
 
#12 ·
Just to be clear, mikeriley is not one of my pseudonyms...

It seems from reviews that the F30 is good. Might be worth a test, it could be a decent ride while waiting for the new M3 and Porsche Pajun. Personally I think Audi's steering is sh*t so pay attention to it while evaluating the Audis.
 
#13 ·
haha i think many believed that to be the case. and the other guy too. but the pajun is what? 2015? and new m3 is... 2014 earliest?
 
#15 ·
This community has been so valuable, great contributions and advice. Helped me navigate my first purchase an e60 535 sport 6 spd picked up through ED. Then 2 yrs later another ED an e93 M3. Two outstanding cars. A year ago got a new F10 550x M Sport and it was a disappointment in so many ways. Beautiful, yes, a BMW in terms of driving, no way. The steering was numb and non communicative, road feel and handling were sub par at best. Other important features such as seat design took a huge step back from the previous model. (anyone remember how nice it was that the side wings hugged your side when u started the car? You felt ready to drive. The new seat is a far cry from before). And let's not even get started on the RFT failures! I sold the car this past week at a large loss. MSRP was over 81k, dealer offers ranged from 50k at carmax to 55-57 k at 3 different BMW dealers and finally 58k at a Porsche dealer.

I don't and never will buy a car for its ornament on the hood. Just bc there is aroundel on the hood does not fool me into thinking these are the UDM anymore. They have become the ultimate luxobarge machines and are much more Lexus than sport, which is evident on multiple poor reviews on handling. I was invited to an autos how preview prior to it opening and had a chance to speak with a BMW exec from nj and I voiced my displeasure. He admitted they were very well aware of the issues with their new cars and Munich is working on fixing it. I really hope he's right.

So where to next? Not sure. Looking into either a refreshed S4 that came out this month or an S6. Have not driven the later but the A6 is fantastic so let's see how the S6 turns out.

Again thanks everyone. I hope to be back soon once the brand comes back to its roots.
The only car that is going to give you the kind of ride you're looking for a is a Porsche Panamera - it gravitates towards the sporty side of things. Only catch is that its damn pricey.

5 series is refined, I'm glad they refined it - if you want more involvement, try the Panamera. No sedan drives like it, but its not as refined as a 5 series, its very involved. Which can get annoying after a long day/or a going for a 5 hour drive.
 
#17 ·
This community has been so valuable, great contributions and advice. Helped me navigate my first purchase an e60 535 sport 6 spd picked up through ED. Then 2 yrs later another ED an e93 M3. Two outstanding cars. A year ago got a new F10 550x M Sport and it was a disappointment in so many ways. Beautiful, yes, a BMW in terms of driving, no way. The steering was numb and non communicative, road feel and handling were sub par at best. Other important features such as seat design took a huge step back from the previous model. (anyone remember how nice it was that the side wings hugged your side when u started the car? You felt ready to drive. The new seat is a far cry from before). And let's not even get started on the RFT failures! I sold the car this past week at a large loss. MSRP was over 81k, dealer offers ranged from 50k at carmax to 55-57 k at 3 different BMW dealers and finally 58k at a Porsche dealer.

I don't and never will buy a car for its ornament on the hood. Just bc there is aroundel on the hood does not fool me into thinking these are the UDM anymore. They have become the ultimate luxobarge machines and are much more Lexus than sport, which is evident on multiple poor reviews on handling. I was invited to an autos how preview prior to it opening and had a chance to speak with a BMW exec from nj and I voiced my displeasure. He admitted they were very well aware of the issues with their new cars and Munich is working on fixing it. I really hope he's right.

So where to next? Not sure. Looking into either a refreshed S4 that came out this month or an S6. Have not driven the later but the A6 is fantastic so let's see how the S6 turns out.

Again thanks everyone. I hope to be back soon once the brand comes back to its roots.
Go to Lexus, never thought I would say that. They do make a better and more reliable luxobarge that comes without the horrible RFTs.

My 335i has 10,000 miles on it and the RFT are now making a horrible noise, after the runaround from the tire manufacture and BMW I was offers anew set at a 75% discount.

I will NEVER buy another one of these cars if this RFT crap continues. If I choose to get regular tires there is no place for a spare.

The best we can do is voice our displeasure by looking elsewhere and I will go Lexus or Audi next time.
 
#18 ·
#19 ·
People in general are resistant to change. Often they equate BMW's changes to an isolated incident when in fact the entire automobile industry is changing due to many pressures including MSRP, MPG, and competition.

I would encourage folks to embrace change rather than be miserable the rest of your life due to a lack of understanding.

As with any car built, the BMW F10 is a result of focus groups helping BMW develop the car. It was not done in a vacuum. That is why sales are still off the chart.

If you don't like the way BMW is going, guess what, I can find the same sentiment on any car forum. It comes down to your ability to accept change.
 
#20 ·
Well this has been tried on many fronts and again this is change we can't believe in. :rofl:

Like all kings of industry who lose their core values and try to appeal to the mainstream they end up failing. See Cadillac. Once the Standard Of The World they tumbled hard after resting on their laurels and banking on their former reputation. It works for awhile but eventually catches up to them. Fanboys will never see fault unlike enthusiasts and now even the journalists have come to realize. Audi and now even Lexus are building better drivers cars and this is not going unnoticed.
 
#22 ·
M.R.

Sorry to hear the 550xi didn't work out for you. The 550xi isn't a perfect car, but I think it is a pretty good car and I'm quite happy BMW built one for me. ;)
 
#27 ·
As good as the Lexus GS' reviews are, for the month of May 2012, Lexus only sold 1996 units while BMW sold 6100. The numbers doesnt tell the whole story, but it is a strong indicator of how well the GS will do against the 5 series.
I use to own a C7 A6 and test drove the 2012 GS350 before buying the 535xi. The GS does handle a bit better, but the engine is not as nice as the 5 series, the A6 had the best powertrain of the three. My biggest problem with the GS is the front end, it looks like it has been in an accident :)
None of the three cars are perfect, each have their strong point and their weak. The 5 series was the most balance meaning it compromise comfort and performance the best.
 
#31 ·
Not yet.

Supply still quite limited on the GS. Look for second half of year numbers, or even 4th quarter, to tell the tale.
 
#35 ·
The LF-A is a halo car, it doesn***8217;t have to sell a lot to draw attention to the brand. Unfortunately, the GS is not in that class. Like many hot selling Lexus before the GS, such as the CT200h or the last gen GS, the sales numbers will fall off after the initial surge. The GS is a nice car, but it just doesn***8217;t look like a $60000 car. In order for the GS to do well, it has to not only match the Germans but exceed them. As good as the GS is, it is not better than the 5 series or the A6.
 
#37 ·
The LF-A is a halo car, it doesn't have to sell a lot to draw attention to the brand. Unfortunately, the GS is not in that class. Like many hot selling Lexus before the GS, such as the CT200h or the last gen GS, the sales numbers will fall off after the initial surge. The GS is a nice car, but it just doesn't look like a $60000 car. In order for the GS to do well, it has to not only match the Germans but exceed them. As good as the GS is, it is not better than the 5 series or the A6.
Maybe and maybe not. It's still way to early to know if this is a success or not for Toyota. It's an important test for sure since the other decent cars the IS and the LF-A has been new cars, this is the first existing car that gets the enthusiasts treatment, let's hope it becomes a success and Toyota continue down this path, it can only get better and they have the resources to compete with the usuals.
 
#36 ·
Seems like the biggest setback for most F10 owners is the handling. Bmw made the car more isolated and smooth while the trade off is a more disconnected feel compared to the E60 for example. The rest of the car seems to be a major improvement compared to the E60.

Easy solution - ACS springs ($500)

It is hard to make a car satisfy everyone's preference but a simple swap of the car's springs will transform it back towards sporty over a luxury cruiser without sacrificing ride quality too much if at all. Pretty simple solution to "fine tune" the way you want your car to handle for very little cost.

My dad has the 2013 GS350 Fsport and it indeed is a very good handling car. More bmw like than lexus for sure. Awesome brakes and feels light on its feet. One of the best interiors all around and very well done. Not better than the F10's interior but just different. More modern. My problem with it is the styling. The front is too aggressive while the rest of the car is as boring as a camry. The engine also felt underpowered to me. Feels fine if you floor it but under normal day to day driving it doesn't feel as fast as the Bmw with its peak torque hitting at about 2K rpm while the lexus doesn't get to its sweet spot until after 4K.

I also got a chance to check out the Audi A6 and although i'm a big fan of the exterior of the car, I can't get myself to like the interior. Seems like audi tried too hard to make it stylish or something and things are just oddly placed with weird curves etc... Another problem is also with the updated A4 out, it looks nearly identical to the A6 and seems like there is no separation between the different class cars now. Didn't get to test drive it but all the reviews says its a tad quicker than the 535 so i'm sure its pretty awesome.

Just for me there isn't another car out there now that blends size, sport, luxury, power and class better than the F10. Sure you might need to fine tune the car to your exact taste but for me thats not a problem. I've always like to make the car "my own" anyway.

Alan
 
#43 ·
I think worldwide sales wise, the 5 series, A6 and the E350 are very close, the GS350 is way behind. Lexus is a player in the US, but their problem is worldwide sales, they just cannot compete with the Germans.
For every F10 owners here who complains about the performance of the F10, there are more owners who actually like the compromise of performance and luxury, the sales numbers reflects that statement.
 
#46 ·
Having recently owned a GS350 and was active on the forum, I will say that it was not nearly as performance oriented forum as BMW. Discussions revolved more around problems with the car, which wheels to bling the car out with, how features worked, and how unreliable any German car is.

The new section for the recently introduced 4G is more about what color to buy, how good does the ML stereo sound, what price are you paying - that sort of thing. No question what they are doing is going to bring in more performance enthusiasts, but I do tend to agree that the forums are very different.
 
#54 ·
As a former owner of a second gen GS, my experience with Club Lexus was very good. I found that plenty of people were doing lots of stuff to their cars, and there was a nice bit of enthusiast drivers out there. And just like right here, while we talk about performance, we also talk plenty about what goes wrong.

While we have the epic RFT thread, they have threads on enhanced exhausts, custom springs, ceramic brake pads, etc. Really, a lot of the same stuff we talk about here.

As Dr. Evil once said, we're not so different you and I.
 
#56 ·
FWIW, I drove a GS350 Fsport today. It was really impressive in terms of interior quality detail AND performance. The handling was much improved in comparison to the F10 and very similar to the E60. Really, it was great. Salesman did however give a lot of BS of how these cars are doing very well, no discount, yada yada.
 
#58 ·
Toyota is being very careful in this launch, they are keeping production number low to artificially create high demand. My Lexus salesman offer me $500 off MSRP, I didnt like the car enough to buy it even if I could have had it for invoice price. Sure the handling is nice, the interior was ok, but the exterior styling and the engine is what killed it for me.
 
#60 ·
This community has been so valuable, great contributions and advice..... A year ago got a new F10 550x M Sport and it was a disappointment in so many ways. Beautiful, yes, a BMW in terms of driving, no way. The steering was numb and non communicative, road feel and handling were sub par at best. Other important features such as seat design took a huge step back from the previous model.....And let's not even get started on the RFT failures!......I don't and never will buy a car for its ornament on the hood. Just bc there is aroundel on the hood does not fool me into thinking these are the UDM anymore. They have become the ultimate luxobarge machines..... which is evident on multiple poor reviews on handling......Again thanks everyone. I hope to be back soon once the brand comes back to its roots.
I agree with your sentiments fully. This is a great forum and an excellent source of information. After driving nearly every model of the 2012 BMW's over the past several months I arrived at the same conclusion that you did, and for many of the same reasons. In my case, I moved to the 2013 GS350, and so far, am very happy with the choice. It is a fantastic car. No run-flat tires, no start/stop "technology," a non-turbo, direct injected six cylinder engine putting out 306 HP with instant acceleration that equals or exceeds that of the 535i with NO hesitation problems, responsive steering with good road feel, aggressive styling with a quality interior and a Nav and stereo system that blows BMW away. I am finding a pleasure in driving this car that was lacking in the new BMW's. I have kept my 2008 E60 so am still enjoying the best of both worlds. Best of luck in finding a car that will be the UDM for you. I will continue to watch all the forums, hoping that BMW will return to designing The Ultimate Driving Machine in future models.
 
#63 ·
Have ever you test driven F10 with software update? I have not test driven GS350 yet, I am curious about GS350 steering feel compared to F10's with software update.

F10 steering feel has improved a bit since the software update (prod date after Feb 2012). From reading mags, GS350 does not have great steering feel either :cry:

I thought to buy GS350 F-sport as a temporary replacement until the new M3 comes out assuming GS350 is much more fun to drive than F10 just like E39 or E60.
 
#61 ·
The F10 is a great car, but everyone has different needs/wants and every car is a compromise on those. Audi makes some nice cars, as does Mercedes and Lexus. My second choice would be the GS350...if I did not have a GS430. The GS350 is a terriffic car, don't get me wrong, but after being spoiled by the V-8, the GS350 just doesn't have enough punch for me, which is why my next car is the 550i (decided to not go with x-drive).

If you are looking at a 535, 528, E350, etc, I would recommend you look at the GS. It's a nice car, with luxury touches at the touch points. There is not as much torque, and less torque down low in the RPM range, and I don't think the MPGs are as good, but the weight is less and acceleration is about the same IMO as the 535. Road feel is also pretty good (drove the non-Fsport), about the same as my current GS430 with Pilot Sport A/S tires. That said, I don't think it corners as well as the F10, stays as flat, and it definately does not have the same push back into the seat acceleration as the 550, but again, when you buy a car to drive, you are making a compromise. Price, acceleration, cornering, safety, road feel, reliability, style, seat comfort, etc. We would love to have a score of 10/10 in each category and a price out the door of $100, but it just isn't realistic. The best we can do is make the best compromise and hope for the best. Good luck with your new car. I hope it makes you happy.
 
#62 ·
I sold the car this past week at a large loss. MSRP was over 81k, dealer offers ranged from 50k at carmax to 55-57 k at 3 different BMW dealers and finally 58k at a Porsche dealer.

So where to next? Not sure.
Ouch! That's one big loss!

That's one of the reasons that I like to lease my cars. I look at the lease as an extended test drive.:)

When my E60 535xi lease expired in 2010, I wanted to try something new, so I opted for an E350. That lease expires in October. I will be test driving the usual suspects - and including the GS350 (even though the looks are probably a deal breaker for me).

I really like the A6 but unfortunately Audi never has attractive lease programs. The F10 is a strong competitor, however, I'm not of a fan of the RFT - and I still can't get over the fact that my E60 had superior steering.

I don't want another Mercedes but it's tempting because You can walk in the door at most dealers and they will not flinch at offering $10K off MSRP.

Bottom line is that there are several good options - but no perfect car. Gotta decide what appears the most to you and your wallet.
 
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