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K&N filter serviced, now car stalls with prolonged braking - please help

4K views 17 replies 8 participants last post by  Hiris 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,

I've been lurking for awhile but need to finally post because I have something of an urgent question. I purchased a 2003 M3/SMG (Dinan) about 2 months ago, 24K miles. Not being at all mechanically inclined, I've been reading the forums to acquaint myself with the terminology and issues.

Last week the "service engine soon" light came on, the car was driving fine. I took the car into a local dealership and after three days of diagnostic work they said the air filter was dirty, they cleaned and oiled it and it was ready to pick up. The following day, the car stalled on me three separate times after I was sitting in traffic with my foot on the brake for about a minute - long lights, long line of cars, etc. There was no roughness or light or any indication before the car stalled - it felt almost like it just ran out of gas.

I took the car back into the dealership that day with the stalling issue. They called the next morning and said that they didn't have Dinan software for the diagnostics and that I should take the car to one of two service garages nearby - one an independent, the second another dealer.

I took the car to the independent shop which was about a block away from the dealership. They found a crumpled, "old looking" air filter and a faulty air mass sensor signal. I now need to purchase a new air filter and a new air mass sensor (they thought it looked like there was oil around the air mass sensor).

I brought all of this to the attention of the service manager at the dealership who denies any wrongdoing whatsoever. The technician claimed that he didn't know what a "normal, new" K&N filter looked like, but states that he followed the directions on the package perfectly. He called the independent garage prior to servicing the air filter and states that they told him what oil to use.

The car had never stalled before and the day after they work on it, it stall three times. It seems like the two events are related.

What should I do next?

Could their service work on the filter have caused the stalling?

Should the K&N filter be oiled in the M3?

Should a garage that doesn't have Dinan diagnostic software be authorized to do maintenance, i.e., Inspection I, on my car? That's where it was done May 8, about a month ago.

Also, I don't know, but there may be some cronyism between the two garages (calling up to find out what oil to use???)

I feel like the dealership should pay for this repair.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
There is a cardboard box in the back seat; I presumed it was the K&N filter box and I presume that is the packaging directions he followed. In my hurry to get to the indy service dept, I didn't really look at the box.

The current technician at the independent shop stated exactly what you mentioned about the oil and my brother also mentioned the filter oil issue. Apparently, the filter does get some oil (is that right?), but it needs to dry very well prior to being replaced.

The dealership technician did not refer to the amount of oil they used, but said they dried the filter for 6 hours and the Service Manager at the dealership concurred with him that the filter was most certainly completely dry by 6 hours time when it went back into the car. Also, the tech at the independent shop spoke with the tech at the dealership over the phone and said he "didn't have definite evidence of oil on the sensor", so the current tech didn't exactly help my cause, although I asked him to keep all parts and document all findings.

It was absolutely clear during my conversation today with the dealership technician (he is actually the foreman of the shop; the actual technician who performed the work was not present) and the Service Manager that the technician did not know what he was doing or looking at. Statements such as "I hate Dinan stuff..." and "when I opened the box, that's what the filter looks like at 24,000 miles, rumpled and old, so that's what I figured it looked like at 4900 miles, when the Dinan was added onto the car."

He admitted he had no idea what a new, clean air filter looked like. When I said you need to know normal before you can understand / identify abnormal, he responded with the above statements. Stunning.

The bottom line is, I went in with a great running car (as far as I knew) with a SES light, and came out of that dealership garage with a car that stalls in traffic. And I was charged over $1200 for the privilege. To fix the problem, the indy garage needs almost $800. I don't mind paying for service the car needs, that's what I signed up for when I purchased the car, but something about this just isn't making sense to me.

Should I request a stock BMW air filter rather than the K&N? Is that an option for my M3?

P.S. I use Chevron 92 octane at all times, if that makes any difference to this issue.
 
#4 ·
Brand new K&N filters come pre-oiled from the factory. You're NOT supposed to re-oil them before you put them in the car.

An over-oiled filter can deposit oil on the mass air flow sensor and it's been known to happen. Why would the dealership put in a aftermarket part in your car?
 
#5 · (Edited)
Brand new K&N filters come pre-oiled from the factory. You're NOT supposed to re-oil them before you put them in the car.

An over-oiled filter can deposit oil on the mass air flow sensor and it's been known to happen. Why would the dealership put in a aftermarket part in your car?
I may have misled you - even I'm getting confused about what they did at the dealership because it's getting me so annoyed.

Apparently the technician and foreman both looked at this "crumpled up and old looking" K&N filter, cleaned it and oiled it and dried it for 6 hours, and put it back into the car. They did not mention a new K&N filter. They cleaned and oiled what was previously there, according to our discussion yesterday.

I don't know what the cardboard box is in the backseat, sorry, I just assumed it must have been a part that was installed, but that's not what they stated in our conversation.
 
#6 ·
K&Ns can be cleaned and reoiled. You must also ensure that they don't get over oiled because they can ruin the MAFs. You best bet is to chalk it up as a learning experience and get a new MAF (buy online and save $$$s) and get a stock BMW air filter and throw the K&N away.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanks for your help and suggestion - I'll let the indy garage know I'd like a stock BMW air filter and not a K&N. As other threads have maintained, I know that I won't feel the difference when driving the car.

I really wish I had some recourse with the dealership.

1. They're clearly incompetent at servicing my car.
2. They sent me out into traffic with a car they knew was stalling, endangering me and the other drivers around me. I've been driving for almost thirty years and never has a mechanic knowingly released my car to me with a serious problem like that.

Complete disregard all the way around. Lesson learned.

PS.
Just spoke with the indy garage; they ordered a Dinan air filter that is not oiled (I think K&N is a distributer for these as well, but he emphasized it's not a K&N filter). Because of the airbox set-up, I cannot just purchase a factory air filter and use that.

Thank you again for your help!
 
#8 · (Edited)
The grease monkeys who decided to "service" the filter instead of recommending reinstallation of the factory air filter housing and filter element should be reviewed and evaluated for mental disability. Multiplicative and Additive values are affected if the air filter and the housing are modified. There is an S.I.B. published and it's about 4 years old which describes mixture faults in relation to air/intake modifications. It is shameful that these technicians with birth defects allow their defects to get in the way of what they are trying to accomplish. By applying the proper procedures from diagnostic through repairs and adhering to what I always refer to as PROTOCOL, these things won't happen. The air box and the filter are designed for the motor in particular. If you noticed, it's not the same as the ones used on any 3 series motor (or any other motor). Leave well enough alone please, how much additional gain in horsepower multiplied by failures would equal common sense? That equation is applicable to all makes and models. These escapees from the local mental institution should be captured and caged. They should be sold as exotic pets that fetch things and perform simple tasks with voice command prompts. They shouldn't be allowed to think for themselves. For all this, I apologize. As a New Yorker, Id have to say......"screw those guys". Forgeddabout it !!! (translation: forget about it)
 
#9 ·
BMW Tech:

Do you happen to know where I can find a reference for that SIB from 4 years ago?

The indy shop tech is replacing only the air filter and the air flow sensor, not the airbox.

Just to clarify: are you saying (and does the SIB state) that I should replace both the Dinan airbox and airfilter with BMW stock parts?
 
#10 ·
S.I. B12 12 07 states that when attempting to diagnose any mixture faults and the air mass sensor (HFM) signal deviates from specification at idle, to check one of the following:

Induction system diffuser is missing or removed changing velocity or direction of induction air path

Activated carbon filter removed or modified

Aftermarket unapproved air filter/cold air kit

Induction system air path disturbance, holes, cracks, separation of air duct

Redirection of the induction air path, collapsed, blocked, etc.

A velocity increase in the induction air path, air duct removed, missing, etc.

Modifications made to any part of the induction air path including the duct work mounted in the front bumper and grille area.

---Air path disturbance can be defined as any modification to the induction system from the point where the air is entering the front of the vehicle to the cylinder head intake ports.

Eventually, fault codes (FC) 174 and 175 Fuel System Diagnosis will be set and Service Engine Soon will be lit.

Known Symptoms :

Rough idle

Engine idle observed higher than normal (approximately 900 RPM)

Hesitation while accelerating

Poor fuel economy
 
#11 ·
Also K&N oil doesn't "dry". You put on a small amount and allow it to soak to fully coat the filter. It is like putting a large drop of water on a paper towel, it takes time to soak in and spread out.

If they COVERED the filter with oil, it was over oiled. And the indy shop should be able to tell if it was over oiled and if oil coated the MAF sensor. If so, the shop that did the work originally owes you a new MAF, and the cost of cleaning and PROPERLY oiling the filter.

And the only oil that should be used on a K&N filter is K&N oil.

Not that I believe in CAIs for M3s, the stock system is a CAI.
 
#12 ·
The indy shop finished the work Monday; I've had the car for two days and it drives like a dream, as it should!

The report back said this:

1. Faults stored for #146, oxygen sensor control bank 1
2. Fault #145, same fault for bank 2
3. Checked mixtures, they're too rich; engine is attempting to take fuel away at idle and cruise.
4. Fault #144, air mass sensor signal implausible.

Checked air mass sensor operation, not working properly on scope. Checked air filter, has some oil and damage, very soft. suspecting from cleaning. Recommend new air mass sensor and air filter and retest.

These were the parts that were replaced:
1. 14699 O-ring HFM
2. 14698 Hot Film air mass meter
3. 14700 Dinan air filter

Thank you for the generous responses.

I have the dealership's General Manager's name and am going to write him to explain the details and request reimbursement for work improperly performed in the dealership service deparment.

As he is probably the individual who hired, or at least tolerates, the incompetent service department and the "good old boy" Service Manager, I'm not expecting to get too far with him. In that case, I'll just move up the BMW customer service ladder and see what happens.

Thanks again for the advice. I'll follow up as details emerge.
 
#13 ·
thats the first thing i look at when i get a car in with mixture faults and rough running. i probably have a stash of 10 k/n filters under my box. hey bmw tech did you finish your ACT test? is it me or this year was the easiest so far.
 
#14 ·
too much diesel questions, test questions are different depending on your level or qualifications I guess. so far test 2 has been smooth and i finished it in less than 30 mins. because the PC at work takes forever to upload the .pdf version of the training manuals.
 
#15 ·
That K&N was 'overoiled'.

I use K&Ns on my own cars as well as cars that we performance tune, and if they are properly taken care of, are brilliant, and they do improve air flow. But just like anything else, if the operator who is doing the work is clueless, guess what happens!
 
#16 ·
level 1 since 2006,
 
#17 ·
i do the act test for the model car, can't win again till my 08 335xi lease is up in 2 years
 
#18 ·
Just wanted to follow-up on this and thank everyone for the help.

After sending a letter with documentation to the dealership General Manager, I received a conference call from the tech, Service Manager, and someone else whose name and position I wasn't familiar with.

They denied all wrong doing on their part, but offered to refund the cost of the K&N filter service to retain me as a customer. When I stated that the MAF was ruined due to their negligence, the technician claimed the car stalled for him prior to the K&N filter service ever being performed.

That was the first I'd hear of that - the car only stalled for me after they oiled the filter.

Anyway, I felt I had two choices: 1) call him a liar and push forward for more of a refund, or 2) accept their offer and accept they're trying to save face, and move on. I chose the latter.

I'm still out a few hundred dollars, but here's how I look at situations like this: they can keep my $400 now, but that's a short-sighted approach. In the next few years when I'm ready to drop tens of thousands on a new vehicle, well, let's just say it's highly doubtful I'll be writing out the check at that dealership. I've never understood why companies can't figure that part out....

Anyway, thank you very much for your responses. I feel like some justice was served!
 
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