BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

Automatic Transmission Fluid - Lifelong or NOT?

154K views 66 replies 37 participants last post by  gunyvw 
#1 ·
So my bmw x5 has 87,000 miles on it. . running well. no problems. went it to get oil changed today and discussed with my nice german mechanic Hans topic of automatic transmission fluid.
He thinks better NOT to change it ever as it is "lifetime fluid" but then he said "nothing is a lifetime."
I called BMW and their service people said "you shouldn't change it until earliest 100,000 and even then there is the risk that you can have problems with transmission after your change it .."we warned you"
Looking online most blogs say you should change it every 30,000 and the whole "lifetime transmission fluid" is a conspiracy by BMW ("whose cars are high maintenance but they now don't want people to think their cars are such so they are using lifetime fluids") to sell more cars ...and also conspiracy not to change fluid so that mechanic ends up doing transmission work later on in life..

THings online talk about flushing the system which makes sense but even then you may move "sludge" around from a place that it was not causing problems to a place that now is causing problems ...

What do you think? Surprisingly Hans and BMW dealership said not to do it .....................

Your thoughts are always appreciated. The car is paid off so I'd like to keep it as long as possible...
 
See less See more
#2 ·
At the very least, I would change the filter. Doing so would require you to drop the pan and replace the fluid that was the pan, which is a safe way to change out 50% of the fluid rather than a flush. You have to remember that "lifetime" doesn't mean the life of the car. It's really the lifetime of the transmission. Will changing out the fluid help extend the transmission life, one would never know since there are so many variables that can cause a transmission to fail...one being clutch pack wear, which would happen whether you change fluid or not.

So, it's really up to you to determine whether it's worth the effort. According to my owner's manual, it states that the fluid should be changed at 100k miles. If BMW deems it "safe" to change it at 100k, I would assume that it is safe to do it earlier as well. Afterall, what's so magical about the 100k mark?
 
#3 ·
Un-frigging-believable.

Regularly fluid changes, say 20-30-40k are essential. But once the damage is done and crud is present, your options become limited.

A passive drain and fill should be fine- just get new fluid in there. (Why do forums go nuts about "I change my oil every 5k" and "I change it every 2500", yet they all blithely leave the ATF sit for YEARS!)

People give BMW engineers' way too much credit... they (the bean counters) don't care at all about the tranny, they don't want to pay for a change under either the 50k maintenance or 100k extended maintenance....

It is laughable that people actually think they are getting technical advice from Consumer Relations....

A
 
#7 ·
There is no answer to that question: each dealership is independent of BMW. So "BMW" actually does not service any car. Figure an hour at your dealers rate, plus fluid.

There is ZERO need to go to a "BMW Dealer"
 
#9 ·
Same fluid for all 2001 X5 4.4s...mileage doesn't matter.

Here:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/7957-transmission-fluid-change-diy.html

http://www.xoutpost.com/articles/x5/engine-transmission/9478-bmw-x5-fluid-maintenance-guide.html

Search is amazing...

I have a 2001 MDX that I use as the beater ski car... finally replaced the tranny at 208k miles. I did full "3x drain and fills" on that car every 40k miles: Drain out 4L, fill...drive to hot... repeat. in 3x cycles you get essentially 95% of the old fluid out. This retained my factory warranty/extended warranty since I did not do a 'flush'. I found it pretty easy to do, and just kept it up past 100k. Given the horrendous reputation those first year MDX trannies had, I think this was admirable longevity.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Transmission Fluid Change

Just as many of you are wondering about changing Transmission Fluid or to better leave it alone, I've been researching this issue for some time now.

I am pleased to read many of these threads as they are very informative. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help out others. My e36 is a manual (140,000 miles), and I have heard that it is easier to do the flush (perhaps there is no filter in mine being a manual?)

I've asked/consulted with over a dozen people/tech, and I got nearly a 50:50 reply (changed it ASAP:at this stage don't touch it, just top it if needed)

Of course I don't buy into "lifetime" being lifetime of the vehicle. I agree with the people on here saying it is a marketing maneuver etc. I am a scientist (chemist), and I know about oil composition, metal particles, catalysis, heat effects, etc. Someone posted the ppm content of the metals and it is obvious that after 70K miles, the chemistry of the fluid is different. However, the difference is remarkably modest considering the length of time/mileage the fluid has been through. So the term "lifetime" certainly testify to the chemical resilience of the fluid, but not to its being consistently the same throughout the "lifetime" of the vehicle. I bet you that if someone tests the fluid after 12K they would find out that it has progressed toward deterioration already, and clearly a change may not be necessary at that stage.

So I am with all of you on the issue of it NOT being a lifetime (unless lifetime is set at 50K or even 100K miles; considering that most of us are not the type to own the vehicle for 36K miles and swab it with a newer one, otherwise we probably would not bother posting/reading on here!) However, I am a bit concerned that since mine was never done, it is quite possible that flushing it all out with brand new fluid may actually cause some additional issues, aside from progressive wear possibly caused by not having changed the fluid this far. I bought 2L of MTF-LT2 from the dealer, and I am considering "baby-ing" the change gradually. Perhaps a comical coincidence, but the 50:50 response I got is tempting me to do just that! Change 50% of the fluid. Any comments on this? Or perhaps in slower steps (much like one would change water in a fish tank!) You do not want to change 90% of the water or else you may shock the fish. I know the transmission does not have cells, however, it has been "used to" that oil which gradually deteriorated to its current state, and perhaps it behooves making a "gradual revert" to cleaner fresher oil, rather than a sudden change. If I had a brand new transmission, I would have changed the fluid at least every 30-40K miles.

Sorry for the long thread, but I appreciate if anyone has an opinion on 1. Manual vs. Automatic, 2. gradual change 3. or other comments!

P.S. I am not sure how to refer to a different thread on this forum other than copying the link in here, but I thought I should make a reference to where I saw the helpful chemical analysis kindly posted by @csmeance.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509990
 
#15 ·
Of course I don't buy into "lifetime" being lifetime of the vehicle. I agree with the people on here saying it is a marketing maneuver etc. I am a scientist (chemist), and I know about oil composition, metal particles, catalysis, heat effects, etc. Someone posted the ppm content of the metals and it is obvious that after 70K miles, the chemistry of the fluid is different. However, the difference is remarkably modest considering the length of time/mileage the fluid has been through. So the term "lifetime" certainly testify to the chemical resilience of the fluid, but not to its being consistently the same throughout the "lifetime" of the vehicle. I bet you that if someone tests the fluid after 12K they would find out that it has progressed toward deterioration already, and clearly a change may not be necessary at that stage.
Wouldn't this support the argument there is little risk to changing the fluid?

With that said I'm now just over 122K miles on my X5 and not a single problem with the transmission since changing the fluid 15 months and 14K miles ago.
 
#14 ·
i dont think it is an issue with manual trans, in the 60,s and 70,s we never ever changed manual gearbox oil, and not a real lot has changed in there design in that time ( yes i know they are improved for a whole host of reasons but the statement stands) even an auto trans from the 70,s maybe got an oil change once in the cars life time

however with the hi tech nature of todays autos and all the electronics and electro magnet solenoids etc, im of the opinion that changing the oil at regular intervals is a smart move

my personal experience with my 05 3.0d is that the fluid change at about 70,000 km dramatically helped / cured the dreaded lurch, along with software up grade

i,m also of the opinion that in stating that the oil is designed for the life time of the vehicle is also true in the eyes of BMW as i dont believe they care a toss after the vehicle has done 100,000 km or once the wty has expired.

they want you to trade it in and buy a new one.

its just us who want better value for our dollar that insist in running them for years, and in my view changing all fluids regularly can't hurt
 
#16 ·
Sometimes changing the fluid and filter brings about transmission problems that previously didn't exist. The new fluid is thinner than the old sludgy fluid, and with the less pressure running through things start flaring up. Most likely the problems would have been an issue in the near future anyway.

This has been 2 out of 50 or so cars that have had transmission services dealership over the past few years that drove fine before, but not after the fluid change. Both were imports (Jag XJ8 and Mercedes E320), both "sealed for life" and we used the OEM filter and fluid.

Overall, I'd take a 4% chance versus what would most certainly happen eventually if you do nothing.
 
#17 ·
Sometimes changing the fluid and filter brings about transmission problems that previously didn't exist. The new fluid is thinner than the old sludgy fluid, and with the less pressure running through things start flaring up. Most likely the problems would have been an issue in the near future anyway.

.
THIS IS PRECISELY WHY REGULAR, EARLY MAINETANACE IS NECESSARY!

So you never GET 'old sludgy fluid'!

Do it at 20, 25, even 40k intervals and you'll be humming along at 120k with a smile....and not thinking 'crap, that tranny sure feels sloppy'....
 
#18 ·
isn't that the truth in all of it, gotta do the service. pay a little now or a lot later, you choose.

thats why i struggle to understand the logic in the service interval indicators that can let a car go
for 15 / 20,000 kilometers between oil changes.

i have the 3.0d and was told that diesels motors in general will go for ever, just one thing change the oil and filters regularly
and 10,000 km to me seems like long enough

same with diff and transfer case oils, mine will be done at the next service at 110,000 km (about 66,000 miles) low cost today
but if it saves the components down the line i,ll be laughing
 
#19 ·
I have owned multiple BMW's. My oldest is a 1996 328i. I have never changed the transmission fluids. I presently have 250k miles and counting. I hope this helps. I just changed my transmission fluids,pan,gasket seal from independent mechanic at the cost of 760.00. I had no choice because it was leaking(650i).
 
#22 ·
I have researched this issue a lot on various forums. My conclusion is to change the auto trans fluid every 50,000 miles including filter. If one is already way over that, the post above suggesting to just change just the filter and trans oil in the pan makes sense to me.

My 05 3.0L auto calls for a change at 100,000. I did it at 58,000 for about $350 at an indy. It currently has 70,000 miles. Given the potential for catastrophic repair issues on the X5, I am hesitant to keep one beyond about 120,000 miles or less. I would never buy a high mileage X5 unless I knew that it had been very well maintained. Mine was a CPO purchased at 44,000 miles. My 3rd BMW, all purchased used. So far, because of circumstances, I haven't kept one beyond 100,000. I am "on the fence" about every owning another one because of reliability and maintenance costs. There are a lot of great cars out there. But, none drive like the BMW.
 
#23 ·
What do you think? Surprisingly Hans and BMW dealership said not to do it .....................

Your thoughts are always appreciated. The car is paid off so I'd like to keep it as long as possible...
I think Hans and BMW dealership make a living fixing broken transmissions. They might not be the best source for advice on this subject.

I have heard the BS about how changing the fluid can cause problems but I don't believe it. I have owned over a dozen cars and the ones that I neglected to change the ATF in caused me problems. The ones that I changed the fluid/filter every 40K miles went for years without a problem. It just makes sense. Of course you have to use the correct type and amount of fluid or you can cause problems.

Good luck.
 
#26 ·
I think Hans and BMW dealership make a living fixing broken transmissions. They might not be the best source for advice on this subject.

I have heard the BS about how changing the fluid can cause problems but I don't believe it. I have owned over a dozen cars and the ones that I neglected to change the ATF in caused me problems. The ones that I changed the fluid/filter every 40K miles went for years without a problem. It just makes sense. Of course you have to use the correct type and amount of fluid or you can cause problems.

Good luck.
That's exactly what it is. I changed the transmission fluid in my 2001 X5 at 108K miles. I had zero issues with the transmission when I traded it in at 126K miles last October. That's 18K miles over 18 months without a problem.
 
#28 ·
I've done an awful lot of reading on this subject over the years and have also come away without a definitive answer. Seems to be a 50/50 split of opinions.

However, knowing that new fluid has a detergent effect, it makes too much sense (to me) to avoid doing a complete change on a high mileage vehicle. I'm afraid of a piece of gunk breaking off and creating problems by lodging in a valve orifice. An AT is just too sensitive to that.
But, I'm old school. I'd much rather do the changes every 60K or go with partial changes at higher mileages. Is it overkill? Perhaps. But I tend to keep my vehicles a long time and it helps me sleep a little better.
 
#29 ·
BMW barely can't stated that the engine oil is also life time fluid. Everyone knows what is the color of the engine Oil in the bottle at fill up,
And so what is the color of the same Oil at Oil change??? (Same for the Transmission, while everyone knows exactly the color of the ATF.
which is a (LIGHT RED SYRUP). And what is the color of it when it comes out of the transmission pan??? (Same as motor oil).
I hate when people keeps saying that: The New ATF Oil will shock or cause problem in the future; this is a dozen pieces of metals running all alone.
Nearly the same like the engine components running all together with Oil spilled all around them. So if you think twice to change your engine Oil,
Why not thinking as twice to change your Old transmission fluid?
While some people still talking (CRAP) about NOT to change the Transmission fluid, this going to be my 2nd. time fluid change on my (01 X5 4.4i):dunno:which is now:122,126miles.
And the 1st one was done at: 75,000miles ago. Every since, I haven't notice anything except more power.
 

Attachments

#33 · (Edited)
And you are on your original trans and transfer case?
OK, I guess there is hope for some of us owner of E53, I flushed my trans twice now and hitting 80k miles on original trans + xfer case.

BTW, as far as flush if you are @100K on original fluid the concensus seems to be leave it alone, you may make it to 150K w/o flush. but if you are @50K do it right (correct tools, parts and procedure); you'll be fine.

BTW, on X5 if you have 3.0 engine it's GM made and 4.4/4.6 uses ZF, different fluids; so make sure before you flush which trans you have.
 
#35 ·
HPIA4v2,
I have a 4.6is 02 with 137k on original fluids. But I have noticed that when coming to a stop..there is a thump (like you have been rear ended) from 2-1, and also have noticed power loss when overtaking. Any ideas??? there are no SEL warning.

Does anybody no of a trusted shop where I can take it to get it evaluated in the Chicagoland area?

thanks
 
#36 ·
HPIA4v2,
I have a 4.6is 02 with 137k on original fluids. But I have noticed that when coming to a stop..there is a thump (like you have been rear ended) from 2-1, and also have noticed power loss when overtaking. Any ideas??? there are no SEL warning.

Does anybody no of a trusted shop where I can take it to get it evaluated in the Chicagoland area?

thanks
The 5HP24 on 2000-2003 4.4/4.6 V8 are ZF-lifeguard5. Green label on the trans pan.
http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=product&id=14&parent=57

As far as rough shift from 2-1 on stop, that is the telltale sign of torque-convertor problem. I heard from ZF master tech that if you replace the TC now you can save the trans, if something break in TC it'll send sharpnel of metal and the trans need to be rebuilt as well. I'll say look for a good shop specializing in ZF trans, don't go to dealer for TC only replacement. GL.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Dexron VI is usually associated with the ZF trannys...transmission pans that have the black label on them.

Click this link for more info...and take note of the info and links that steer you toward data/info about recommendations for the tranny mfg you have (green label or black label): http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5546574&postcount=2
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top