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New study shows Electric Cars counter productive to environment

12K views 35 replies 11 participants last post by  ErnestHouse 
#1 ·
New study shows Electric Cars counter productive to environment

In a blow to electric vehicles (EVs) being the solution to global warming a new study shows that EVs might pollute more. The study, by the Norwegian University of Science and Technology found that green house gases were increased if an EV is charged from electricity produced by burning coal. The study also went on to look at the entire life cycle impact of an electric vehicle. The production of an EV has significantly larger environmental footprint then a conventional vehicle.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about twice that of conventional vehicles."

"It is counterproductive to promote electric vehicles in regions where electricity is primarily produced from lignite, coal or even heavy oil combustion."

"A more significant reduction in global warming could potentially be achieved by increasing fuel efficiency or shifting from petrol to diesel," the report said.

Read the complete article at BBC.co.uk

With 44% of the US electricity coming from petroleum or coal does an EV in the US make sense if the goal is a reduction of green house gases?
 
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#2 ·
"It is counterproductive to promote electric vehicles in regions where electricity is primarily produced from lignite, coal or even heavy oil combustion."

With 44% of the US electricity coming from petroleum or coal does an EV in the US make sense if the goal is a reduction of green house gases?
Yes, as long as electricity generation is also switched to non-CO2-producing methods, be it solar, nuclear, wind, whatever. The growth in wind farms is fantastic in the midwest, and battery charging could be set to occur mostly at low use times.

The EV market is still in its infancy, so give it time. Internal combustion has been refined for over 100 years. The simple answer is there is no one right answer. Its like gasoline vs diesel - there was room for both, only now we've also got electric, hydrogen, CNG, LNG and LPG.
 
#3 · (Edited)
We had studies coming to the same conclusion a long time ago, that using electricity generated from coal instead of using gasoline actually pollute the environment more. The political selling point was that electric cars would pollute (smog) the city environment less than gasoline cars. :eeps:
 
#4 · (Edited)
In a blow to electric vehicles (EVs) being the solution to global warming a new study shows that EVs might pollute more. The study, by the Norwegian University of Science and Technology found that green house gases were increased if an EV is charged from electricity produced by burning coal.

...

With 44% of the US electricity coming from petroleum or coal does an EV in the US make sense if the goal is a reduction of green house gases?
This sounds like fairly typical recurring FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) that is dredged up about EVs every 6 months or so.

*Of course* IF you compare the latest and lowest emission gas engine to one of the oldest coal plants in Tennessee (or some-such) many environmental factors are a draw, and some go one way or the other. Especially if you hand pick an electric vehicle and use it as counter to it's design as possible, all highway miles, for example, to use the most electricity as inefficiently as possible.

*Of course* this is leaving out that people aren't buying EVs to drive 100 highway miles each way in Tennessee.

They are using them *in cities*, where the regen greatly heightens mileage, and that is mostly *in states* which due to population density and pollution concerns have long been very tough on electric generation emissions, such as California. And this will improve even more over time as old plants are retired and replaced with new highly efficient Natural Gas based plants or even greener alternatives.

Under those much more reasonable circumstances EVs can look very good. Though I do still have concerns about the battery and electric motor materials, where they have to come from, the damage done by their extraction and use... (then again, the alternative is the middle-east...)

But I don't need some probably petro-chemical funded "study" from some *Norwegian* university to tell me this!

Next can we have a petro-chemical funded red-herring article about how electric is a dead end, that Hydrogen is the magic beans and is just 5-10 years away (same as the last 20-30 years...)? Make sure it mentions that Hydrogen *can* be broken out of water but entirely skips over the fact that the only economical way to make it... is to break it out of petro-chemicals!

-
 
#5 · (Edited)
No one is claiming H2 is the salvation here, so leave it out. Thank you. If you want to drive a golf cart to work and on your next vacation, go ahead. What a great country. We still have choices. I gave my daughter a Razor 300E, a motor scooter to help promote electric vehicle. I also have a 14" electric chain saw (I'm getting too lazy to adjust those 2 cycle engines now). So, I'm doing my share.
 
#6 · (Edited)
If we buy an electric car, I'm not the least bit concerned about CO2 output from charging.

Our local power production is Nuclear and Wind with a little hydro electric. North Wales is an exporter of electric power. No coal for us.

We've got 25MW on the island and 150MW of off-shore wind on-line. There is a a huge 576MW off shore wind farm under construction. Several larger wind projects, including an 2.2GW array in the Irish sea are going through planning stages. A few days ago we got an information package in the mail about new transmissions lines. The power from the Celtic Array will come ashore on Anglesey.

http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/12029...-offshore/under-construction/gwynt-y-mr-home/

http://www.centrica.com/index.asp?pageid=984#ourProjects
 
#10 ·
The Tesla roadster is no longer in production but I can still grab a model S, Nissan Leaf or a Volt.
With political debates in the air, the discussion or spin factor away from or toward electric reminds me of US politics. More theory than plans.

I have a diesel SUV with amazing oil burning mileage.
Choice
 
#11 · (Edited)
Study flawed

The study, by the Norwegian University of Science and Technology, is flawed.

They used a stationary industrial electric motor and associated components for their calculations instead of the motor from a typical modern EV.

They greatly overestimated the extra amount of copper used by an EV.

They analysed a battery chemistry not used by any production EV or plug-in Hybrid.

These errors mean the result is wrong.

source:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+RobertLlewellyn/posts/QcZd7My7tYF

And the original paper:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x/full
 
#12 · (Edited)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x/full

I decided to go check for myself.

The Leaf uses LiMnO2,

In the case of the EV, two battery types were investigated (i.e., LiFePO4 and LiNCM)
To be fair, Nissan has said they may use LiNCM in a future battery pack. .

There is a spread sheet attached to the end of the paper and the motor errors are there.

While they didn't put in 1000kg motor mass, they did put in too much copper. For example the authors model the inverter as containing 35.5Kg of copper, when in fact the entire part weighs 5kg.

I suppose the next step would be to rerun the model with updated numbers. -- Anyone want to give it a try?

The paper shouldn't have made it past peer review, but it does happen.
 
#13 ·
I also think the authors overestimated the battery pack life. They used the life of the car, but I doubt the current technology will last that long. From the early reports, I expect the pack in a Leaf to last 5 to 8 years. Oddly Nissan did not design the Leaf with a thought towards replacing the entire pack. Unless Nissan come up with a retrofit, the car's useful life span is greatly shortened. Could be that the cost of a pack is so high that no one will replace them.

Renault has gone a different route with packs that are easily swapped out. Customers lease the battery with Renault swapping the battery back if needed.
 
#14 · (Edited)
New study shows Electric Cars counter productive to environment

In a blow to electric vehicles (EVs) being the solution to global warming a new study shows that EVs might pollute more. The study, by the Norwegian University of Science and Technology found that green house gases were increased if an EV is charged from electricity produced by burning coal. The study also went on to look at the entire life cycle impact of an electric vehicle. The production of an EV has significantly larger environmental footprint then a conventional vehicle.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about twice that of conventional vehicles."

"It is counterproductive to promote electric vehicles in regions where electricity is primarily produced from lignite, coal or even heavy oil combustion."

"A more significant reduction in global warming could potentially be achieved by increasing fuel efficiency or shifting from petrol to diesel," the report said.

Read the complete article at BBC.co.uk

With 44% of the US electricity coming from petroleum or coal does an EV in the US make sense if the goal is a reduction of green house gases?
Due to the reduction in cost of natural gas, more and more U.S. utilities are converting to natural gas for electricity production. Additionally, CA is moving increasing levels of its electricity purchase (internal to CA plus external to CA) to renewable sourcing.

CA is a natural place for EVs.
 
#15 ·
To me it's not about the environment. It's about less dependency on oil.

Good to have alternate technologies. Also, like any emerging technology, you can't use current models and infrastructure to fairly compare. The whole thing will quickly develop and improve to address environmental concerns, be it cleaner electric generation, or more enviro-friendly battery technology etc. It's a step in the right direction.
 
#16 ·
Wow a floored University paper!! How did that happen?
 
#18 ·
Meh. There are valid points in the article. If your electricity is sourced in coal, then increasing the electricity production is going to result in a higher CO2 burden than if natural gas, nuclear or wind/solar was the source of the electricity. At this point, there is no single answer to the question of what is better - EV or Hybrid.
 
#30 ·
The point I made was about the tiny cars makers are forced into when they are trying to get hi mileage without electric assist. Those gas/diesel only cars end up with tiny cabins and gas mower engines. They do not serve the needs of very many people.

A 2012 Prius is a Hybrid and gets 50 MPG combined. A BMW 1 Series 28i gets 33. That's not "slightly less". An Active Hybrid 3 gets 33. Ditto

The diesel infrastructure is there principally for long haulers and construction. Having cars on diesel is piggy backing on it. If you flood the general population with more TDIs then more pumps have to be build or gas ones converted to diesel. Scaling diesel up doesn't come for free. It all adds up to wasting resources chasing something that won't go the distance.
 
#31 ·
The point I made was about the tiny cars makers are forced into when they are trying to get hi mileage without electric assist. Those gas/diesel only cars end up with tiny cabins and gas mower engines. They do not serve the needs of very many people.

A 2012 Prius is a Hybrid and gets 50 MPG combined. A BMW 1 Series 28i gets 33. That's not "slightly less". An Active Hybrid 3 gets 33. Ditto.
Shall I repeat the post about the 320d. The 320d gets BETTER mileage than a Prius, and will outrun one easily with 163hp and a lot of torque. That's no mower engine.

Want more fun? Look at a 123d - a bit more boost, and 204hp and even more torque - and still almost the same mileage as a Pious.

Too bad these cars aren't sold in the USA because the majority believes as you do. I've driven them in Europe, and they're quite fun.
 
#32 ·
According to Fuelly, the best 320d is 41mpg but the majority is 34. The gas models are high 30's and the majority is 41.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/diesel

The best 123d is 43 but the majority is in the 30's. The gas models are hi 30's:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/123d/diesel l4

So for all that C02 and particulates from diesel, a gas hybrid with an even smaller gas engine in those cars would deliver the same performance with less fuel and emissions. And, anything that's done to make the car lighter or have less drag helps the hybrid. No matter the car, a hybrid version of it will deliver flat out more mileage/less emissions with the same performance.

My statements about diesel were based on the US infrastructure.
 
#33 ·
#34 ·
They call them Diesel H4. Mostly in the 30's here:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2012

Doesn't matter. Take any engine and you can get the same performance with a smaller hybrid for less fuel and emissions. Or, for the race car wannabees on the drive to the office, add a hybrid drive train to the engine you have for another 50bhp of performance and beat that Prius off the line at the red light:D.
 
#35 · (Edited)
They call them Diesel H4. Mostly in the 30's here:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2012
There are several versions of the F30 320d. The ED version is supposed to use about 11% less fuel. Fuelly doesn't seperate them by version While the sample size is small, (12) the distribution is interesting.



I looked at the individual cars. A couple are F30 M Sports.

This one (http://www.fuelly.com/driver/moonster98/320d) is an e90! At 30.1 MPG it is at the low end of the range. I'm going to throw that one out since it isn't an F30.

With the e90 removed, the distribution is:

29: 1
31: 2
32: 1
36: 2
38: 1
41: 1
42: 1
44: 3

Other interesting things I noticed. The two UK cars are both in the 44 slot. 4 of the 5 cars from Malaysia are at the low end of distribution. Then I went and looked at the BMW Malaysia website --> http://www.bmw.com.my/com/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2012/showroom/technical_data/index.html -- The 320d EfficientDynamics isn't on the Malaysia website. The specs only show the regular 320d.

None of the 5 Malaysian cars are a 320d EfficientDynamics. Taking those cars out changes the distribution to mostly 40s but the sample size is getting very small.

THen I decided to look at some other cars:

There are only 2 current generation MINI Clubman D's on Fuelly. 43 and 46 mpg-US.

I couldn't find any BlueMotion Golfs on Fuelly. I did find 3 BlueMotion Polos. 45, 50 and 54 MPG.

Yes, the Prius does a little better than these cars. But the Prius isn't a driver's car. Neither is a Leaf which is one of the main reasons we don't have one.

Doesn't matter. Take any engine and you can get the same performance with a smaller hybrid for less fuel and emissions.
Maybe. If someone sold it. Here in the UK, I can buy a 320d ED for £28,410 On the road. Cars are priced "On the Road" and including all taxes and fees. A 320d M-Sport is £31,410.

An ActiveHybrid 3 SE is £40,565 and and ActiveHybrid 3 M-Sport is £43,565.

Apples to Oranges of course. The Active Hybrid is faster and uses far more fuel than the 320d. A fair comparison would be a 335i. 0-60 times are essentially the same. A 335i M-Sport lists for £37,870. Is the Hybrid really worth an extra £5700??

Peugeot and Citroen have started selling a few diesel hybrids. I haven't paid much attention to them as they power cars I'm not that interested in.
 

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#36 ·
I think my point stands. EV AND Hybrids are the way to go. Hybrids CAN be drivers cars. Petrol will be always be cleaner than diesel. Petrol based Hybrids will have lower emissions than Diesel ones. By definition, engine only pursuits will fall short (in both consumption and emissions) of those same engines in a hybrid configuration. EV AND Hybrids serve both owner and population/environment. Engine only pursuits serve only the owner. One could use the word selfish I suppose, but I won't. :angel:
 
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