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101K views 1K replies 56 participants last post by  bayoucity 
#1 ·
So, has Cadillac really cracked the 3 Series' code?

http://www.totalcarscore.com/car-reviews/comparison-tests/entry-luxury-sport-sedan-comparison-test

"Shadowing the BMW 335i in terms of both intuitive feedback as well as overall ride quality and handling confidence is the 2013 Cadillac ATS. If you think you might have misread that previous sentence, go back and read it again - slowly. Just to be 100 percent clear, Cadillac has created a sport sedan that is, dynamically, right on top of the BMW 3 Series. How close is it? The ATS is closer than the previous challenger to the 3 Series' supremacy when it comes to sublime handling finesse - the Infiniti G37. Again, we're talking shades of gray here, shades we could only uncover because we drove all three in such close proximity to each other. The G37's extra weight is the likely culprit in placing it third, as it still feels like a first class sport sedan...unless you drive it aggressively right after driving an ATS or 3 Series, aggressively."
 
#8 · (Edited)
There are proably a lot of younger buyers who do not remember the abominations that Cadillac was building 30 years ago.



They definitely have an image problem to overcome but it is not insurmountable. You never know what the future will being. In another 30 years BMW may be considered an old persons car and Hyundai and Cadillac may be the status brands.

They certainly lost their way and built some real crap over the years but the brand has a gear heritage and they built some wonderful cars in the past,





CA
 
#11 · (Edited)
So, has Cadillac really cracked the 3 Series' code?
Definitely some great product in the history books. I get the sense GM understands this and knows the brand could be great again...if it's given its due.
As noted in the article Infiniti has been at it for ten years and has not succeeded. And, as noted, they started out really well. I remember well the headlines, "Will the G25 be the Bimmer killer?" Well, it turned out not to be.

I have A LOT more confidence in Infiniti's ability to stay focused than I do in Cadillac's and it turns out keeping that focus has been very difficult for them.

I think Audi will continue to be BMW's fiercest competitor. Caddy will probably end up as another "also ran". Their ATS interior is already much more Lexus-like than Teutonic and Cadillac is a much more natural competitor to Lexus than they are to BMW.
 
#14 ·
There are tell tale signs that the ATS will do very well in an instrument test comparison. For example, all the first drive reviews commented how well the ATS was balanced and composed at turns and cornering.

It just so happened in two of the first drive videos, they showed the ATS pulling 1.0+ g. I was surprised to see the numbers, because I recalled when C&D did the test among four competitors, the F30 328i only pulled a 0.87 g.
 
#15 ·
The ATS is getting attention here because Cadillac has made it very clear that it is taking aim at the 3 Series and from the early reviews it appears that they have come up with a very good car.

Let's face it there are always going to be some here who would rather have a diaper pail with a BMW roundel on it than a Ming vase with a Cadillac crest.

We don't know how the ATS will do in the marketplace but it appears that Cadillac is off to a good start.

CA
 
#17 ·
The ATS is getting attention here because Cadillac has made it very clear that it is taking aim at the 3 Series and from the early reviews it appears that they have come up with a very good car.

Let's face it there are always going to be some here who would rather have a diaper pail with a BMW roundel on it than a Ming vase with a Cadillac crest.

We don't know how the ATS will do in the marketplace but it appears that Cadillac is off to a good start.

CA
LOL, I love the whole post, but the highlighted area just cracks me up and is so true...
 
#19 · (Edited)
This isn't related to performance, but rather interior accommodations. The rear seat of the CTS is really bad. Because of the super wide C pillars and the low seating position it is like sitting in a hole. The cushion is short and low, so there is no thigh support and your knees are up around your chin. The rear seat of the E90 is much better. In fact, I consider it the best in class. The Audi is very close and some like it better.

This comparo already says the ATS' rear seat is smaller than the F30. The ATS has basically the same super wide C pillars as the CTS, so I expect the rear seat is virtually the same and it may be worse.


I haven't driven the current CTS, but I did drive the first one. It wasn't nearly as good as the E90. I went to a big GM driving event during the run of the first CTS where GM had lots of their competitors. In the segment where they had the CTS they also had a BMW E90 325 (this was late summer/early fall 2005) and a Merc C Class. There were two cars people were lining up to drive repeatedly - the BMW and the Merc. No one (other than me) got in line to drive the CTS multiple times.
 
#209 ·
This isn't related to performance, but rather interior accommodations. The rear seat of the CTS is really bad. Because of the super wide C pillars and the low seating position it is like sitting in a hole. The cushion is short and low, so there is no thigh support and your knees are up around your chin. The rear seat of the E90 is much better.
Mystery: Urge to sit in a 3's back seat

Be advised: CTS has limo-like comfort compared to an E93's rear seating, in which one might insert a suitcase, grocery items, or dog, but no human we are friendly with. I consider it a roadster with mid-ship storage, accomodation for top down operation.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Honestly, if I thought I could have found an ATS 2.0 Premium with manual to drive, I would have waited before ordering my F30. With the magnetic ride and turbo 4 I have a feeling the ATS would be even closer, if not better, than the F30. I trust Karl Brauer's assessment in his review as I've been reading his work for over 10 years. I get where he's coming from and if he sees the ATS as a hair behind the 3, he's probably right. He's handled more awesome cars in his life than most of us will ever dream of touching. Given the feature of the ATS and the way Caddy supports their CTS, the ATS will undoubtedly be a steal compared to the 3. An ATS-V will surely be a beast...for much less than the next M3.

No matter now, my F30 is built and enroute. But gotta say BMW hooked me in with the various discounts on the BMW now and my familiarity with the brand. Next time...I will give the ATS a shot just like MB, Audi, Infiniti got a shot this time.
 
#26 ·
I'm glad Cadillac is giving BMW serious competition. Bottom line is that BMW has gotten too comfortable being "#1" and while their entry level prices are reasonable, adding levels of gear that are standard from other makes often pushes BMW $5,000-$10,000 over competitive products.

Can't wait for more shootouts to show up.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Anyone considering a Cadillac I'll do you a favor and ask you a question that a co-worker and friend of mine asked me when I was seriously considering a CST-V about a decade ago ... "How long do you think it will be before parts start falling off it? You may want to consider the extended warrantee"

When saying that, he had no idea that a decade before that, my wife and I were given a Seville by my wife's mother, who got it from her father. It was two years old with 5000 miles on it when my wife's mother got it, and they only drove it for one year; my wife's grandfather would get a new Cadillac every year or two since when he won one in a lottery in the 1950s and alternate passing the old one down to each of his two daughters. So it was only about 3 years old, with like 15,000 miles on it when we got it. We had the car a few years and put a few tens of thousand miles on it. Now I don't know, maybe it's just me. But I don't think if I have a few years old car and it's only got a few tens of thousands of miles on it at the time, that [multiple] interior trim pieces are supposed to fall off, glove compartment no longer close, leather seat on the passenger side start disintegrating, or blinker just decide to detach itself from the car and stay in your hand one of the times you use it...

So I'll ask anyone considering a Cadillac ... "How long do you think it will be until parts start falling off of it?"
 
#33 · (Edited)
Anyone considering a Cadillac I'll do you a favor and ask you a question that a co-worker and friend of mine asked me when I was seriously considering a CST-V about a decade ago ... "How long do you think it will be before parts start falling off it? You may want to consider the extended warrantee"

When saying that, he had no idea that a decade before that, my wife and I were given a Seville by my wife's mother, who got it from her father. It was two years old with 5000 miles on it when my wife's mother got it, and they only drove it for one year; my wife's grandfather would get a new Cadillac every year or two since when he won one in a lottery in the 1950s and alternate passing the old one down to each of his two daughters. So it was only about 3 years old, with like 15,000 miles on it when we got it. We had the car a few years and put a few tens of thousand miles on it. Now I don't know, maybe it's just me. But I don't think if I have a few years old car and it's only got a few tens of thousands of miles on it at the time, that [multiple] interior trim pieces are supposed to fall off, glove compartment no longer close, leather seat on the passenger side start disintegrating, or blinker just decide to detach itself from the car and stay in your hand one of the times you use it...

So I'll ask anyone considering a Cadillac ... "How long do you think it will be until parts start falling off of it?"
There is no question that Cadillac had a reliabilty and build quality problem. That does not mean that it still does but that is a very legitimate question. JD Powers give the 2012 CTS-V a good rating for reliability.

FWIW there are not many BMWs at the top of the reliabilty ratings. My 07 335i has been very solid (other than its appetite for tires and rims) but you need a larger sample that one car to determine reliabiity.

CA
 
#35 ·
Acttually, from an auto racing perspective at least, its easier to lead. That is why race drivers compete for the pole,

CA
 
#45 · (Edited)
I think an issue that will hamper Cadillac for the long term is that at the core GM is still run by bean counters (I believe; I don't believe that has fundamentally changed), whereas BMW is still a company run by engineers (even though they may have to fight the bean counters).
 
#46 ·
I think an issue that will hamper Cadillac for the long term is that at the core GM is still run by bean counters (I believe; I don't believe that has fundamentally changed.) whereas BMW is still a company run by engineers (even though they may have to fight the bean counters).
You're missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicle, the ride, the experience, or the price. This has everything to do with brand.

And when it comes to brand, BMW is atop the pile and Cadillac isn't even close. In order to understand the product you have to think like the customer. And in this case the customer is two very different things. White-collar America aspires to own a BMW. Only blue-collar types want to own a Cadillac. Car ownership is all about bagging the girl. Just like cavemen in ancient times, whoever carries the biggest stick gets the best woman. Your Ford F150 owner needs a Cadillac to bag his barefoot babe at the pig roast. Your Volkswagen GTI owner needs a BMW to bag his trophy wife at the country club.

The streams do not cross. Ms. Cute College wants a man-in-a-suit who drives a BMW, Ms. Dirty Toes wants a man-in-a-jumpsuit who drives a Cadillac.

As such, Cadillac can never take a bite out of BMW. Cadillac can grow its own market share, take sales away from the likes of Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Audi and the other wannabe luxury brands, but BMW is something special. Cadillac and the other frauds aren't status-symbols. They're just luxurious cars. That's the difference. If you pretend racecar drivers would take your heads out of your aspirated asses, you'd see that.

BJ
 
#55 ·
I don't usually peruse these threads, but I would like to comment by saying that there is no comparing a Cadillac to a BMW. I know people have bought CTS-V, and the new ATS is being hyped by many, but there is no way that I personally would ever place a Caddy in the same league with a Bimmer...

:dunno:

Just last week I had yet another CTS-V malcontent wanting to trade (read: un-burry himself) and get back into a BMW, complaining about all of the annoying little squeaks and rattles.

Granted, GM has made significant strides in the last decade, but (to me) there is simply no comparison. This is most obvious to those of us in the car business. Two more words: Resale Value.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Regarding resale value, it seems true GM does not give high residuals to the CTS leases, but their incentives and low lease rates make the CTS leases a lot less than even the 3 series.

If the ATS is as good as the initial reviews, I will consider leasing one, but only if they offer very competitive lease programs. You are right I don't want to deal with long term ownership of an ATS yet.

I am still hoping BMW steps up and address some of the complaints of the F30 so I can look forward to the improved F30. I don't think it is too much to tune the EPS to have a tighter feel in sport mode. They can leave the soft steering in the ECO mode to keep BJ happy.

And give the 328i a more lively exhaust, make the sport mode more aggressive like in the E90, best of both worlds.
 
#58 ·
Cadillac has one advantage no one has mentioned. It's American, which appeals to some patriotic types.

Cadillac's aren't just popular with old people, they're also popular with professional athletes, gang bangers, and Japanese mafia. It's a pretty diverse customer base actually.
 
#64 ·
Totally agree penarai. it really comes down to the engineers and the bean counters. The problem with GM for the longest time the bean counters were winning that argument, maybe just maybe that is changing. However there is no question about it Infiniti/Nissan. They are on a mission to go back to the producing some very solid driver's cars and they got the technology to make some noise in this market segment.
 
#72 · (Edited)
At first I didn't like it, and I still haven't seen one live but I like the looks of the F30 (check out the pics the BJ posted). The styling is evolutionary so it is immediatly recognizable as a BMW 3 and it has a strong family resemblance to the 5 and the 7. I am curious about how the coupes and cabrios will look but from a sales standpoint I think the looks of the F30 will be a plus and appeal to most customers.
 
#77 · (Edited)
ATS does soften the look quite a bit, which should appeal to some European buyers.

In the following order:

ATS
XTS
CTS
328i
535i
7 series
 

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