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Steering e36 greater than F30

15K views 318 replies 38 participants last post by  bmw325 
#1 · (Edited)
So I've had my F30 for about a month.

I was in denial about reading everyone whining about the steering, it couldn't possible be THAT bad, could it?

I have to say, when compared to my e36, I'm slightly let down.

You all know the story so I wont beat that horse.

I just wanted to share with you guys that the ultimate driving machine I thought I would be buying... I already owned.

The F30 has given me a new found respect for my e36.

While its slower, older and louder than the f30, its by far the car that is more fun to drive. When I get in the e36 my body just has a feeling of "now its time for some fun".

If you are a true bmw enthusiast you understand, other than name, these are completely different cars in every respect, so much has changed. Land vehicle Vehicle Car Coupé Sedan


My next bimmer WILL be an e30. When I'm driving down the road and see a well preserved one I get so excited, my friends think I'm nuts.

...or maybe an F23

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#114 ·
Lastly, now since it is down to your opinion vs mine in both E9x & F30 cars. I simply asked you a question..... since you disagree with my assumptions....please show me the majority of major publication or sources who do this for a living verify your claims. I know my opinion is further validated by most major publications and folks that do this for living.

Bottom line is that F30 does not have a better steering feel or better feed back then E9x no matter how you dice it or what DHP you add to it. The inherent flaw is in the EPS setup that robs the feedback and feel and has yet to be cured and that is a simple fact not a myth.


So F30 and E9x E46 owners....we may have to wait for the next negeration of EPS (2016 maybe) ... in the meantime we move on
 
#115 ·
Bottom line is that F30 does not have a better steering feel or better feed back then E9x no matter how you dice it or what DHP you add to it. The inherent flaw is in the EPS setup that robs the feedback and feel and has yet to be cured and that is a simple fact not a myth.
Kayani- If forced to buy a new car right now what would you pick? And for fun lets say that it cant cost less than 30,000 or more than 50,000.

I really like my old e90 328i. It never felt heavy to me. The hydraulic steering that has been left over in the X1 almost convinced me to go that direction. I remember reading an article about how the F30 and e90 are extremely similar in almost every way--- except steering feel in which the F30 receives 60% less road feedback. But I think you are blowing this all out of proportion. I think that when you look at the current models of the options out there, its hard to say that BMW has lost its way. Maybe Infinity and Cadillac are making sportier sedans, but Infinity is making it exceedingly difficult to get a manual transmission and Cadillacs are ugly as sin. So what car would you pick?
 
#116 · (Edited)
I am not so sure if Infiniti is on the right track either. The new Q50 is horrible with its new electronic drive by wire technology being sold with marketing kool aid "developed by F-1 driver Vettle". From all accounts the new Q50 is one step forward and two backwards in comparison to the G37 Sport.

The Cadillac ATS is still the better among both 3 series and Infiniti when it comes to steering feel and feedback. The ATS suspension is also done right. As for the inline-6 turbo engine and 8-speed transmission etc.....BMW F30 still has all the right ingredients, I also prefer the I-drive. By no means I am saying that F30 is trash. However, it is sad that a legendary 3 series subbrand that once was known as a dedicated sports sedan is now superseded by others in an area where it excelled such as steering feel and feed back. To me that is the most important relationship of a driver with the car. As it transmits what is happening where the tire meets the road. All fun to drive and great drivers cars have a great communicative steering. I doubt anyone can disagree with this. As it allows driver greater confidence to push the car to its limit easily without over doing it. This is what they mean by a saying "when you and car become one and are connected". That is why the prior GT3, M3 GTS, Lotus, and Ferrari cars were so confidence inspiring on or off track. It is not a video game point and shoot, if you spin hit the reset button and say "oops". I did not know it was going to do that. Because a car with proper steering setup will talk and tell you that it is at the mere edge of its performance limits and will take you there and back safely all the while putting a grin on your face. A communicative car is fun to drive.

Since the new generation 3 series has lost that key ingrident then I am not happy with it. I will voice my opinion and ask others to join. The louder the voice the sooner BMW will respond. After all they will not be here without us buyers who buy their cars. If the EPS is going to be used then BMW needs to invest larger amount of resources to fix its inherent issues. If it can't be fixed then return the proper steering setup back into the 3 series. It is unacceptable in its current state and I think we all should voice our displeasure with it. The problem comes with people who have no clue what a good communicative car is to begin with or they could care less to be botherd by it. They buy a car to go from point A to point B. If someone says anything negative about the car they bought despite a valid concern they start seeing red. The end goal is if F30 can be turned into a better car then it is today by BMW. Then it will benefit all of us who love and desire 3 series sub-brand so much. The F30 needs to be improved in the steering dept badly. As owners and future buyers we need to show our disapproval of this life less steering trend that has plagued the industry as a whole.

The newer trend of EPS setup in pure performance or more visceral dedicated cars is alarming to me. I am not against technology......just against technology that has not been perfected yet. The car companies listen to consumer complaints as the porfits they make come from our pockets. If we want the 3 series to be legendary for times to come. Then owners of F30 will have to put their purchase based blinders aside and complain as loudly about fixing the life less steerings.

As of right now I have a car outside in my driveway with a EPS setup a KIA Optima Hybrid as a daily drivier faimly sedan. Do I dislike the EPS steering in it "YES" oh so much.....but can I tolerate it in a car that is not a dedicated legendary sports sedan "YES".....because its function is to be a mere good smooth, relaxed, daily driver, with plenty of gas mileage. It is by no stretch of imagination a dedicated sports sedan. I would not buy a BMW 3 series sport line or M-sport with EPS setup. Because it does not suit the nature of the car. It takes away from it. So untill this technology has been refined and honed to belong in such a legendary sports sedan....why put it there.....just to save 1 mpg. Bottom line is EPS has its place but not in performance sedan or cars unitl it is good enough to be in them. For those that want to go from point A to point B in luxury or comfort real fast or want vast amounts of of gas savings. There are plenty of options.....why do these people want to make a legendary 3 series sports sedan watered down.......what are they trying to accomplish by such. To me it comes across as a posure effect like sticking go fast stickers on a car so everyone can feel you have a real sports sedan/car. If you want a sports sedan then get it the way it is suppse to be viscreal, a bit raw and more dedicated peformance machine kind of like how 1M turned out. How do we go from making a car like 1M to the current F30 sports sedan.

At the end I know I take a lot of heat for my stand aginst EPS in its imperfect state. But then again taking a stand in what you believe is the "right" thing... does not always come easy. So I am willing to take the heat from F30 owners.

If you forced me to buy right now. I could honestly not pick any sports sedan out there for sale. As each one comes up short in one area or another. I would buy a CPO E9x M3, in case of gas concerns I would go with E9x 335is with N54. If I was limited to new cars I would ideally like to add a Lotus Exige S. But since it is almost impossible to register it here legally as a daily driver. I would probably go with C7 stingray. At least its EPS steering was ranked higher then the Porsche 911 C4 S. The C7 is also very lightweight and vastly improved in interior, exterior, suspension and performance. Thus, that might be the route I might go if I will have to go with an EPS setup car. I also have hopes tied to the new M3/M4/M235i/M2. Maybe BMW will wake up from a giant sleep and fix the issues for once and for all and shut people like me up. Then I will go buy one happily :)
 
#117 ·
What is the point of this thread? Did you not test drive it before you bought it?

Your argument is a bit contrive. If car companies never made technological changes, we'd still be driving around 4speed cars with carbureted engines. Every older gen car is going to feel lore "raw" than a modern car. My 1993 NSX without power steering has the best feel ever, but I challenge you to turn that steering wheel with one hand in a parking lot


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#127 · (Edited)
I really like the NSX. You have a fine machine. :thumbup:

My question is why would you need one hand in a parking lot in such a car? I would gladly use both hands to not lose the steering feel and feedback it provides.

Not against technology just against one that has not been perfected. :thumbup:

What is the point of this thread? Did you not test drive it before you bought it?

Your argument is a bit contrive. If car companies never made technological changes, we'd still be driving around 4speed cars with carbureted engines. Every older gen car is going to feel lore "raw" than a modern car. My 1993 NSX without power steering has the best feel ever, but I challenge you to turn that steering wheel with one hand in a parking lot

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#138 ·
Good article and nice read even though I agree with some and disagree with some. I agree that some times BMW nails it so right that you swear there was no better manufacturer out there better then BMW as was the case with E9x M3, E46 M3, E39 M5, or 1M.

Thank you for posting:thumbup:
 
#145 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s
The E90 handled like a truck.


what drug are you on ?

I know a good doctor... call me
 
#146 · (Edited)
The 3 Series is the car that popularized (but contraty to common belief did not originate) the concept of the "Sports Sedan".

A sports sedan is closer in concept and character to a Grand Tourer (GT) than it is to a sports car. Grand Tourers are generally two seater coupes or have a 2+2 configuration. Both Sport Sedans and GT cars are automobiles that are capable of high speed or spirited long distance driving in comfort and style. Ideally a Sport Sedan or a GT should mix luxury and performance without putting so much emphasis on one that it severely compromises the other. Sports cars are generally highly oriented toward performance at the cost of comfort and practicality although the distinction between sports cars, luxury cars, GT cars and Sports Sedans has become very blurred.

In my opinion this delicate balance of comfort and luxury is what most 3 Series buyers are looking for. If you are interested in all out luxury or all out performance you will probably be disappointed in 3 Series. It appears that with the E9x and with the F30 BMW has had some issues achieving that balance. The sport suspension on he E9x was overly (and unnecessarily) harsh which compromised comfort, and to a certain extent also compromised performance. It appears, from what I see in this forum, that for many people BMW may have gone too far in the other direction with the F30 as there are a number who have posted here mentioning excessive body roll on turns and a loss of steering feel compared to earlier models.

There is no reason why a driver's car can't be a luxury car or why a luxury car can't be a driver's car. If BMW strays too far from eitther there is a good possibility that it will hurt them in the long run particularly if other manufacturers build cars that offer a better balance of luxury and performance (and it appears that several manufacturers are nipping at BMW's heels in this regard.

The question that I ask is would those who buy the F30 for luxury and comfort be less inclined to do so it had more steering feel and less body roll with little or no loss of comfort, practicality or luxury? If the answer is no then there is really no reason for BMW to not improve on both of these. I posed the same question to someone from BMW North America and he acknowleged that they have gotten a lot of feedback about the steering and suspenison of the F30. He acknowledged that BMW may have overreacted to complaints about the harshness of the E9x. I have also spoken to people from Lexus and they said that Lexus is interested in developing cars that are more driver oriented while still maintaining the characteristis that built the brand such as comfort, build quality and reliability,

Witth the technology available today there is no reason why a luxury car can't be a driver's car as well and the base versions should to a large extent be both with options available for more performance, more luxury or more performace and more luxury.
 
#147 · (Edited)
The 3 Series is the car that popularized (but contraty to common belief did not originate) the concept of the "Sportts Sedan".

A sportts sedan is closer in concept and character to a Grand Tourer (GT) tjhan it is to a sports car. Grand Tourers are generally two seater coupes or have a 2+2 configuration. Both Sport Sedans and GT cars are automobiles that are capable of high speed or spirited long distance driving in comfortt and style. Ideally a Sport Sedan or a GT should mix luxury and performance without putting so much emphasis on one that it severely compromises the other. Sports cars are generally highly oriented toward performance at the cost of comfort and practicality although the distinction between sports cars, luxury cars, GT cars and Sports Sedans has become very blurred.

In my opinion this delicate balance of comfort and luxury is what most 3 Series buyers are looking for. If you are interested in all out luxury or all out performance you will probably be disappointed in 3 Series.

It appears that with the E9x and with the F30 BMW has had some issues achieving that balance. The sport suspension on he E9x was overly (and unnecessarily) harsh which compromised comfort, and to a certain extent also compromised performance. It appears, from what I see in this forum, that for many people BMW may have gone too far in the other direction with the F30 as there are a number who have posted here mentioning excessive body roll on turns and a loss of steering feel compared to earlier models.

There is no reason why a driver's car can't be a luxury car or why a luxury car can't be a driver's car. If BMW strays too far from eitther there is a good possibility that it will hurt them in the long run particularly if other manufacturers build cars that offer a better balance of luxury and performance (and it appears that several manufacturers are nipping at BMW's heels in this regard.

The question that ask is would those who buy the F30 for luxury and comfort be less inclined to do so it had more steering feel and less body roll with little or no loss of comfort, practicality or luxury? If the answer is no then there is really no reason for BMW to not improve on both of these. I posed the same question to someone from BMW North America and he acknowleged that they have gotten a lot of feedback about the steering and suspenison of the F30. He acknowledged that BMW may have overreacted to complaints about the harshness of the E9x. I have also spoken to people from Lexus and they said that Lexus is interested in developing cars that are more driver oriented while still maintaining the characteristis that built the brand such as comfort, build quality and
reliability,

Witth the technology available today there is no reason why a luxury car can't be a driver's car as well and the base versions should to a large extent be both with options available for more performance, more luxury or more performace and more luxury.
The 3 series needs to be a well rounded-jack of all trades.

It is not a sports car and I cringe when some have made it out to be, in any previous generations.

I find issue when looking back creates excessive glossing over of facts.

The E90 did SOME things poorly enough where enthusiasts like me passed on the purchase. It obviously did some things well or I would not have been to the dealer once a year 4 years in a row tempted to make a purchase.

Fact is, there has been some reshuffling and the F30 improved on SOME of those things, ones that mattered to me-hence making the purchase. BUT, at the expense of some other qualities that again fall on the SPORTS or LUXURY side of the spectrum.
 
#149 ·
Bj-

A few questions-
-if the 3 series is the luxury family car of choice for those with a 5 million + net worth...what's the 5 series for? And 7 series?
-if enthusiasts are such a minority and only high schoolers buy used bmws why have cars like the e30m3 and 1m gone up in value?
-What would cause you to not lease a bmw in the future? And what would you have leased if the f30 had not been luxurious enough?



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#153 ·
Bj-

A few questions-
-if the 3 series is the luxury family car of choice for those with a 5 million + net worth...what's the 5 series for? And 7 series?
-if enthusiasts are such a minority and only high schoolers buy used bmws why have cars like the e30m3 and 1m gone up in value?
-What would cause you to not lease a bmw in the future? And what would you have leased if the f30 had not been luxurious enough?

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Who cares, don't feed the troll.

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#167 ·
I bought my E36, E46, and F30 because I can only afford one car for road and track--and my wife owns her side of our two-car garage. Each of my bimmers have been wonderful cars on the road and just as comfortable--and happier--on the track. Not many cars can do both so perfectly!
 
#171 ·
I love BJ's sig: "Trophy Wife/Rolex/Beach House/Status Package". The guy doesn't take himself too seriously.:thumbup:
 
#173 ·
I'm going crazy too...Mr. BJ.... Mr. BoJangles this is for you

I knew a man Bojangles and he'd dance for you in worn out shoes
Silver hair, ragged shirt and baggy pants, that old soft shoe
He'd jump so high, he'd jump so high, then he lightly touch down?
Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, dance.

I met him in a cell in New Orleans, I was down and out
He looked to me to be the eyes of age as he spoke right out
He talked of life, he talked of life, laughing slapped his leg stale
Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, dance.

He said the name Bojangles and he danced a lick all across the cell
He grabbed his pants for a better stance, oh, he jumped so high and he clicked up his heels
He let go laugh, he let go laugh, shook back his clothes all around
Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, dance, yeah, dance.

He danced for those at minstrel shows and county fairs throughout the south
He spoke with tears of 15 years of how his dog and him but just travelled all about
His dog up and died, he up and died, and after 20 years he still grieves
Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, dance.

He said, "I dance now at every chance at honky-tonks for drinks and tips.
But most of the time I spend behind these county bars, 'cause I drinks a bit"
He shook his head, yes, he shook his head, I heard someone ask him, "Please,
Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, dance, dance, Mr. Bojangles, dance."
 
#175 ·
I think BJ gets off on this crap. I have a tech that works for me in Texas that just bought a 2009 911S for 60k. he reasoning? I always wanted one. he makes 75k per year. Isn't America great? you get your chips and put it all on black sort to speak.

There isn't anything difficult leasing a car for 800 per month or less if you are employed with decent credit. You maybe living with 5 roommates but hey, its a free country.
 
#176 ·
If I was single, living in Texas, and say had no debt other than a $800 apartment, I could justify a 911 on $75k a year.

$150-200k in metro NY/NJ does not mean much in comparison when expenses and cost of living gets so much higher.
 
#211 ·
Are there currently aftermarket options for a sport exhaust for the f30?
 
#218 ·
Steering aside, what's your overall take on the two cars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
may have to wait for LCI.... 2016 perhaps

driving the latest Golf GTI the steering a much better than F30
__________________
- Robert A

I take F20 M135i

VW Interior plastic is poor

I can see bits falling off in 3 years

DSG is jerky..... felt like driving a car with a faulty gas pedal
 
#228 · (Edited)
At idle and cold start. Its the direct injection, not heard when actually driving. When you live with the car, you realize how silly statements like yours are. My friends N55 clatters as well, just less pronounced. Welcome to direct injection.

Let me guess...does it have anything to do with a Rogue Catback/AFE intake scoop set-up?:D This set-up won't change the engine sound, but how does it affect the exhaust sound and why do you think it's worth the money?


afe-exhaust-bmw-f30-328i-er3

List Price :
$1,225.00
Our Price :
$1,159.95


afe-intake-scoop-f30-328i-er
List Price :
$62.00
Our Price :
$54.95
www.modbargains.com
Car sounds completely different with the catback, actually has a personality as opposed to being quiet as a church mouse. The AFe scoop likely does nothing. The Rogue cutback put down 20ft lbs more to the wheels, 7whp-the torque gain was noticeable.
 
#237 ·
I've very much like to hear a good sounding F30 four, cause sound is the #1 thing holding me back. Otherwise, i love the idea of a turbo four - less weight over the front wheels, great mpg, cheaper etc.
 
#238 ·
I have nothing to gain by thinking CERTAIN exhausts sound good IN PERSON on the F30.

Fact is, the car has no sound, no personality stock. Fact.

I can also tell you that soundclips are meaningless, it is why I had not posted any.

The reason why the Rogue catback is not on the market is because we have been very particular as to the sound and look. I/we want it to be better than what it is out there.

Fact is, the setup I had and currently have while awaiting the latest changes, sounds more exotic, more rich and expensive than what you hear on other 2.0L 4's whether it be Japanese or German. That is a very good thing. It is also a bit customizable with the manual and electric cutout being offered. On the dyno with the cutout open, it sounded MEAN-but might be too much for DD-so close the cutout!
 
#241 ·
One point of interest is, does the N20/N26's sound "muted" due to the inherent flat power band? How does surging power band like M54's affect the sound? My layman's perspective is the amount of exhaust gas generated by the engine affects the sound, but it is not obvious to me if that is related to power band flatness.
 
#242 ·
It sounds muted because a turbo is a sound dampener, sort of like a silencer way before getting to the muffler. The N55 is muted too compared to an NA 6, but the sounds that do come through are more appealing than the N20 due to 4 vs 6 characteristics.
 
#281 ·
Styling is in the eye of the beholder, and most beholders will disagree with you about the ATS.

Also, ATS' backseat and trunk area is not significantly different from that of an E46.
 
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#295 · (Edited)
This sounds like good news to me.

Is it a cure? Doubt it. But hearing an improvement to these late production cars of 2013 is very encouraging.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=920568

Hey guys,

I know the F30 steering feel/weight has been the source of much discussion on the boards and because the steering is electronic, it's really about finding the right digital "recipe" to get the perfect feel/weight. Porsche has done a great job finding the recipe while BMW is still searching.

So after I got my car back a few weeks ago from service and ECU update, I started to realize how stiff and heavy my steering is in sport mode. I'm wondering, is there a chance that BMW updated this recipe in the latest ECU update that smooths out the AUTO START STOP (ASS) feature?

This is by no means a scientific discovery, just something I realized recently and wanted to ask the other forum members.

Could they have quietly updated the recipe as to not admit fault? Is it possible they recalibrated it based on what they found in the development of the F32/M3/M4?

UPDATE:

Okay so I did some extensive driving and testing today and found somewhat of a startling discovery. With my current ECU software version, there is a definite stiffness/heft difference between SPORT and SPORT+. Try driving in an empty parking lot and make turns switching between SPORT and SPORT+ and you'll totally feel the difference. Not sure that was the case before with the old software but I thought the consensus was that steering was the same from SPORT and SPORT+.

I feel about a 15-20% difference in heft between the two sport modes. It feels like it takes about 1-2 seconds for the steering heft to change once you switch to SPORT +.

If this is the case, then there is indirect confirmation that BMW is continually improving the steering feel via updates.
I can chime in on this; yesterday I handed over my car to the dealer for some warranty fixes (rattles etc) and I also got the latest firmware. Got it back today and lemme tell ya, the difference is clear! Something has been done with the steering, much firmer in Sport, and I was really happy with it before even coming from an E90. Nice :)

And btw, i after the rattle tweaks its now much more solid and less road noise is entering. I complained bout the inner window frames rattling from music (the ones tthat have the front HK-tweeter hpusong incorporated in them) and they put some felt marerial inside them since theyre hollow, it drastically minimized the wind/road noise. Oh and I got those new drip things that are on the putside of the windshield, on both sides. Sweet :)
 
#296 ·
This sounds like good news to me.

Is it a cure? Doubt it. But hearing an improvement for late production cars of 2013 is very encouraging.
At this point you likely won't shut everyone's kasetorte hole until it becomes a user customized option configured through the OBC, and even then you'll likely have someone still whine that the lightest setting is too heavy, or the heaviest setting is too light. :)
 
#297 · (Edited)
As for F30 I know you are the biggest defender of it and I dislike it very strongly. You and me will not agree except once in a blue moon when you will actually admit that the N20 sounds bad or that base F30 sucks and drives no better then a Toyota Camry. The difference in our opinion is that you believe that magically DHP fixes the F30 and its horrible steering. I am firm in my belief that no amount of DHP or sports or M-sport fixes the inherent flaws of the EPS setup. Honestly you are in la la fantasy land where magically the F30 overcomes its inherit issues just cause you own the car. The reality is most people who do this for living like car mags disagree with you. Now you will say they never tested the one with DHP/FHP/CHP/THP/LHP....blah blah.....my reply is dude none of those things will bring more feedback and feel into the inherently flawed EPS system. You claim to work with cars closely yet refuse to accept simple well known facts about the EPS setup.
I am pretty certain that Jameson doesnt even have DHP... He seems to like the car just fine.
Kayani, you seem like the kinda guy that will be bragging about his F30 in 5 years. I know you wont agree with me now. But just try to remember, five years from now, when you find yourself attacking the engineering and design of the new iSomething that runs on a Ion/3 cylinder, that you were once vehemently opposed to the N20 engine and the F30 suspension. Remember that all of the "inherent" flaws that you have so graciously pointed out are the result of a steering system that is used by every car on the road. Maybe you can even reminisce about the good ole days when you thought that the e9x was proof that BMW had lost its way after the perfection of its previous models. Five years from now, do you think you will have picked the sport suspension or DHP? My money is on DHP (you know, because of the steering feel)

You strike me as the kind of guy that fights change. I bet you used to wear baggy pants.
If you actually believed half of the things you say you wouldnt be on this forum every other day.
 
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