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2009 Carrera S or F30 M3

27K views 115 replies 30 participants last post by  GVIFlyer 
#1 · (Edited)
Here we go again. The last time I posted something like this, 2005 Carrera S vs E90 M3 there were a lot of good discussions, pros and cons. Well, I ended up with the '05 Carrera S because the M3 lacked low end torque for its weight, and it would have been a gas hog, a real turnoff. Eventually, I sold the Carrera S because it was just too much car for where I live in TX. Surrounded by big TX trucks the Carrera S looked like a toy. But, I really missed that car so now I'm thinking of getting one again, but the gen 2 version with 385 hp (~$70K) rather than the 355 hp in the '05 (~$48K) model. Scratch off the new 991 Carrera with the Boxster engine because it is too green a car for my liking, and with only a slight increased in power over the 997 Carrera, it does not entice my curiosity. The question is once again, which would be a better car to get, the 2009 gen 2 Carrera S or the pending F30 M3?
 
#50 ·
You're making some "red herring" arguments there, as I'm only talking about the Ferraris of TODAY, and no, I've never driven on the track with a 458 but the reviews and the lap times speak for themselves. For that matter, the cover story of one of the new British car mags compares the new 991 to the Audi R8 to the Nissan GTR to the M3 and concludes that while the M3 is great for what it is, it isn't even in the same league as any of those other cars: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Commun...nd-the-scenes-of-CARs-Porsche-911-group-test/

What do "my ring times" have to do with anything? (And I've never driven the 'Ring, anyway.) Again, we're discussing the CAR and not the DRIVER.

You're right in that the GT3 RS is around $150,000 while the Ferrari, of course, is north of $200,000... my mistake there.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Hey, all good here, just having fun

But for me, the car is my tool, I'm not its tool. As such what is important to me is how I like it and intend to use it, not what some guy who writes for $$$$$ says. The tests they employ bear little resemblance to my driving habits on all but the best and most open of roads. And, I don't care anyway, I'm not Walter Rohl.

Years of racing have brought me to the point where public road speeds are calm and relaxing and I have no desire to street race under any circumstances. I do gas-it now and again but only when the way is empty.

My "road test" parameters concern items they ignore or give little note. That's OK with me. Owned a GT-R long enough to flip it for a profit when they first emerged. Awful car for my (and many others') purposes. Never driven an R8, looks good from some angles, but not practical for me except as a fourth car, and if I owned a forth it likely would not be that one. 991? Well already said what the plans are for future P's. So while I would agree all those cars would produce better lap times, none of them would suit my purpose as well as an M3 Cab. So for me, the M3 wins the test.

What's wrong with saying that?
 
#54 ·
>>...after driving the M3 and a new 997 Porsche Carrera back to back, I concluded in terms of performance, that both cars were evenly matched... attached is a Car and Driver test that speaks for itself.<<

That test wasn't the Carrera S, though, which is what I thought we were discussing. For that matter, the new Boss Mustang is at least the M3's equal on the track and has an awesome engine note of its own. (It's a shame about the crappy interior, but I guess that's where the "missing $30,000" went).

>>In terms of the 991, I understand performance has been enhanced at the expense of driving entertainment and "visceral" feel - I look forward to a face off on US soil.<<

"Car" magazine (linked in my earlier post) has an excellent face-off on British soil. If you think "the soil" matters, well, okay.

>>I find both the M3 and the 911 Carrera to be very different experiences but equally entertaining... Both offer individual unique charms...<<

And I find my M3 to be way too heavy and rather "charmless," albeit with an awesome engine (and whatever "charm" ANY convertible has on a nice day when the roof goes down). I got it because I wanted a sporty convertible with usable back seats, but if I had to do it over again I probably would have gone Porsche as you can cram two thin adults back there for short trips (I've been there myself) and that would have been enough for me. When this lease is up in the spring of 2014, that's probably what I'll do.
 
#61 ·
Interseting discussion. For those who have driven both, what are your thoughts on the r8 vs a carrera s? I know a few die hard car guys who own r8s and absolutely love them (these are people who have owned fetraris and porsches) And they're not much more than a comparable carrera. no I can't afford either one, but I may have the opportunity to take each one out for a day.
 
#63 ·
carrera S and R8 are not in the same league.
Sure both can get you a speeding ticket, but R8 will get you the ticket faster.
I like the weight of the carrera s. :thumbup: The appearance too :thumbup:
 
#72 ·
According to Car & Driver, the new car *gained* 77 pounds. In fairness, though, according to some other specs I've seen, the weight is unchanged. Regardless, 3591 pounds (the C&D figure) are at least 200 too many for a small sedan in this price range, but BMW obviously would rather enjoy their fat profit margins than use more aluminum. ("More aluminum" is what Porsche did.) Hey, it *is* a business they're running and not a hobby, but they've been increasingly living off their performance reputation from long ago rather than moving the bar forward, and every year the comparison tests between their models and the competition get closer and closer and they're losing more of those tests than ever before.
Agree somewhat but Porsche has a much bigger margin to play with on the 911. Will be Intersting to see what BMW does with the m3.
 
#74 ·
Agree somewhat but Porsche has a much bigger margin to play with on the 911. Will be Intersting to see what BMW does with the m3.
I'd say BMW has the larger opportunity for improvement, given how light the P cars already were.

But I don't expect it. I expect larger, softer cars throughout the range.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Bimmer App
 
#62 ·
Well .... I have driven them. The R8 is a very wide car. It definitely has a nice driver feel and appeal. It performs well too. Compare that to Nissan GT-R; both are fast big and furious. Neither are like the 997 IN MY VIEW.
My M3 is a fantastic car, somewhat of an inbetween size & performance.
The discussion goes on and on.
 
#64 ·
If you want about the same measurable performance, with moderately useful back seat and way more comfort, then M3 is the answer.

If you don't need the back seat, can take the pounding, noise and abruptness, and want that feeling of a more direct connection to the car/road, then the Porsche fits better.

I certainly like the Porsche better as an occasional car, but not for anywhere near every day or for commuting.

Maybe I'm getting old ...

:)
 
#65 ·
If you don't need the back seat, can take the pounding, noise and abruptness, and want that feeling of a more direct connection to the car/road, then the Porsche fits better. I certainly like the Porsche better as an occasional car, but not for anywhere near every day or for commuting.
:)
Sadly, based upon what I've read about the new electric steering and various electronic suspension gimmicks in the new 911, you might find it all TOO comfortable for commuting. (And hey, the back seat is now a little bigger, too!)

I can only hope that by the time my M3 lease is up:

a) Porsche has switched back to hydraulic steering (or really figures out the electric thing), and

b) I can somehow afford a new Carrera S cab, because those slightly bigger and more comfortable back seats make it more useful to me than a 997, and the weight savings and vastly improved folding roof are nice, too.

If (a) and (b) don't both occur, I may just buy my M3 when the lease is up, as the new one-- if the weight of the new 335i is any indication-- will apparently be almost 100 pounds heavier than my current porker.
 
#66 ·
Originally Posted by bmw325
Interseting discussion. For those who have driven both, what are your thoughts on the r8 vs a carrera s? I know a few die hard car guys who own r8s and absolutely love them (these are people who have owned fetraris and porsches) And they're not much more than a comparable carrera. no I can't afford either one, but I may have the opportunity to take each one out for a day.
carrera S and R8 are not in the same league.
Sure both can get you a speeding ticket, but R8 will get you the ticket faster.
I like the weight of the carrera s. :thumbup: The appearance too :thumbup:
BS

If the R8 4.2 is AS FAST as the new Carrera S, it's an accomplishment. To suggest it's not in the same league is absurd or ignorant.

Further, similarly equipped, the R8 4.2 is still significantly more expensive.

Lastly, the discussion is about M3 vs Carrera S, specifically because they're two cars reasonably close in performance but one is small/light/raw, while the other is more powerful yet bigger/heavier. Just like the R8.

Obviously of the three, I'd buy M3 (already bought E90 M3), but 911 is way further up the list than R8 4.2.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Bimmer App
 
#73 ·
i saw a 991 (S) one on the street this weekend. it is a dazzling looking car. it also is MUCH more expensive than an M3, and theres that whole new model year thing along with the new steering thing, and the no trunk thing. but the little changes are so evolutionary and well done, it's hard not to admire.
 
#80 ·
driven the "new" 911 twice now

sorry, but any increase in size of the rear seat is very very small indeed.

IMHO Porsche (err. VW) screwed the pooch with this one. I have owned many 911's. This car is notable for nothing particular, and as with the 996 the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Open the door and you'd think you were in a Caddy. MEH

Will be keeping my M3 cab. No thanks to the triple-charged 6. Looking for a fun 91-97 Turbo Porsche for a Sunday car.

yeah, magnesium roof, just like a hardtop.... Right! the most notable thing about the new 911 will be the profit it makes for VW
 
#81 ·
driven the "new" 911 twice now

sorry, but any increase in size of the rear seat is very very small indeed.

IMHO Porsche (err. VW) screwed the pooch with this one. I have owned many 911's. This car is notable for nothing particular, and as with the 996 the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Open the door and you'd think you were in a Caddy. MEH

Will be keeping my M3 cab. No thanks to the triple-charged 6. Looking for a fun 91-97 Turbo Porsche for a Sunday car.

yeah, magnesium roof, just like a hardtop.... Right! the most notable thing about the new 911 will be the profit it makes for VW
Isn't the m3 cab also a "fun Sunday car" though?
 
#84 ·
Where is Dave:dunno: Has he decided.

I have only seen and sat in the 991, the good and bad news is apparently it is easier to drive fast than the 997. And if they did increase the rear seat room it would be just to make it more tolerable for the kids, and now there are Latch points.
 
#102 · (Edited)
No 997.2 or 991 S here. My new ride is a 2007 911 Turbo (997.1), 6 spd. Had it shipped here from CA. This beast is FAST. It's amazingly fast. I can't prove it, but it seems like everyone at the stop light next to me wants to see me light it up. :rofl: The local Houston Porsche dealer handed me the key to a red 2013 Boxster S with PDK. Yes, the PDK shifts fast. It is nice to have both hands on the wheel all the time. The 991 S PDK was out that day so I will go back for a test drive soon. From what I hear the 991 S is 8 seconds faster then the 997.2 S around Nordschleife, which the latter time was under 8 minutes. Never felt 911 buyers care about back seat space, but Porsche did try to advertise that it is also weekend car to go to the likes of Home Depot to pickup a few pieces of 2x4s. :) I don't like all the electronic gizmos in the new cars, including the Porsches. I think the real driver's car is the Porsche GT3 RS, something to drool for at the Porsche dealer next to the museum this last May. BTW, Porsche doesn't know how to present the history of their cars. My opinion, if you want to see a real car museum, the MBZ in Stuttgart should be on the top of your list. The video/audio presentation gives you not only the history of MBZ, but also how the company was an integral of Germany and the rest of the world. Hitting Germany again in early December to purchase some handcrafted gifts at the historical Christmas markets, and next April and August, 2013. Early retirement is really rough.



 

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#85 ·
I drove the 991 yesterday and the changes are quite sweeping.
The car has nice low end torque, seems fast and well footed on the highway.
For the price, I am not worried the M3 will go away at all.
I am very interested in the 991 GT3 and the turbo S. Watch out GT-R!
 
#86 ·
you bring up an interesting point. How will these cars appear in sport dress?

put a wing of size on these pups and they will appear as large as a '64 Impala. But I'll reserve true judgement until I see it.

Between the uninspired rear end, the flatter looking sides and the drone cone non-exhaust note literally piped into the interior (good grief, I never expected them to think the simulacrum of an exhaust would suffice for an enthusiast) I'm very disappointed in what P/VW thinks of the intellect and sense of style of the typical consumer.
 
#88 · (Edited)
Interesting conversation***8230;.As I previously mentioned, I grew up in a family that worshiped 911s and I drove Porsches for a number of years. I have always considered Porsche to be a psychological touchstone when evaluating sports cars. I anticipated I would be returning to Porsche last year with the purchase of a 997 Carrera PDK. Evaluating my M3 back to back, I exorcised my 997 demon. Initially I was taken aback by the M3***8217;s weight, but I found the weight to be a non-issue. The M3 is heavy but the car possesses billet like solidity and very secure predictable handling. The M3***8217;s defining V8 and sublime song reinforces the M3***8217;s ***8220;athletically robust***8221; tactile feel.

The Porsche experience is usually defined in terms of "visceral". If visceral means less comfortable, more Spartan interior finishes, less smooth shifting PDK, less interesting exhaust note, in general, a less substantial feel, than the 997 was more visceral. I should note, when I test drove a 911 Cab v. an E93 335i MT a few years ago, I was also underwhelmed by that Porsche experience. The BMW was solid while the 911 exhibited cowl shake.

I recently viewed the new 991 -- 911 redefined for a new age. There was always a cadre within Porsche that wanted to go beyond the limits inherent in the 911 but the market's support for the 911 ruled. Porsche has transformed the 911 into a car that will have a broader appeal beyond die hard 911 enthusiasts. Perhaps the 991 represents a Faustian bargain - Porsche gains market share but loses it's soul in the process?
 
#92 · (Edited)
Interesting conversation&#8230;....As I previously mentioned, I grew up in a family that worshiped 911s and I drove Porsches for a number of years. I have always considered Porsche to be a psychological touchstone when evaluating sports cars. I anticipated I would be returning to Porsche last year with the purchase of a 997 Carrera PDK. Evaluating my M3 back to back, I exorcised my 997 demon. Initially I was taken aback by the M3's weight, but I found the weight to be a non-issue. The M3 is heavy but the car possesses billet like solidity and very secure predictable handling. The M3's defining V8 and sublime song reinforces the M3's "athletically robust" tactile feel.

The Porsche experience is usually defined in terms of "visceral". If visceral means less comfortable, more Spartan interior finishes, less smooth shifting PDK, less interesting exhaust note, in general, a less substantial feel, than the 997 was more visceral. I should note, when I test drove a 911 Cab v. an E93 335i MT a few years ago, I was also underwhelmed by that Porsche experience. The BMW was solid while the 911 exhibited cowl shake.

I recently viewed the new 991 -- 911 redefined for a new age. There was always a cadre within Porsche that wanted to go beyond the limits inherent in the 911 but the market's support for the 911 ruled. Porsche has transformed the 911 into a car that will have a broader appeal beyond die hard 911 enthusiasts. Perhaps the 991 represents a Faustian bargain - Porsche gains market share but loses it's soul in the process?
Great insight! I lot of folks thought the M3 lost it's soul when it moved from inline 6 to V8.
I hear the next M3 might be tri-turbo. Remember several years ago when the head of the M division said M cars will never be turbo charged?
I think it's cool that the next M3 is evolving and putting in a turbo will not make the next M3 less of an M car.
It's interesting point of view that the interior of the 997 is spartan, "less substaintial feel" than a E92 - I thought just the opposite :D
My E92 was loaded but didn't feel no more special than my wife's E91.
I think my favorite exterior and interior M3 design is the E46 - I think it's a timeless design :thumbup: I wished we would've kept it!

Personally, I like that cars evolve. And each new model, the cars have better technology, use better materials, better performance and continues to be refined based on customer feedback. With the exception of Honda/Acura, every car maker I think, has done a good job of evolving their cars... sorry Honda/Acura - your biggest problem is boring exterior design! Look at the shnozzle on the TL/MDX/RDX...:dunno: Good 'ole days of NSX, Legend are gone!
 
#89 · (Edited)
I've had all them all at one point... various generations of M3, 997.1 Turbo and 997.1 C4S
My favorite is the current 997.1 C4S - best blend of power, performance and daily living.
Honestly in my opinion, you really can't compare a standard M3 to a 911 because the 911 is purposely built as a sports car whereas the M3 is a hybrid - it starts the chassis creation for the global masses, then tweaked and updated to appeal to sports car enthusiast.
Ok... if I was to compare stock for stock, my C4S will run circles around any of my M3's in overall performance (not just 0-60)
I took both cars to the race track and the dominance of the C4S shows up fairly quickly - it's able to handle the onslaught of the track much better.
The 997.1 Turbo was insanely fast with sportschrono and will run circles around both.

I drove the new 991S for 20-30 miles, amazing car. It takes daily super car expectations, to new levels.
The latest PDK is utterly butter smooth and extracts most out of the engine at any speed.
The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned.
If money is no object, I would get a properly equipped 991 version, over many other sports car.
In a couple of years probably trade in my 997's, and move to a new 991 C4S but its probably going to be $130K+

If I was in the market for a 2011+ 997 in any flavor and with a budget of $100K+, I would be patient and get either a used 991 or 991S!
And for those who haven't driven a 997 and 991 back to back...they are both good drives, the 991 is more refined and allows you to extract more performance at the limits. With that said, I will probably never be able to extract the full potential of my 997's - it's that good.
 
#90 ·
Well Mark, with the slightest wink to hyperbole I would agree with most of your assesmsnt.

However, after two test drives you and I diverge on the 991;

First, would challenge that you took a 991 to its "limits" on a test drive. If you did, I'm happy that I wasn't anywhere near. I find this especially difficult to swallow considering your last sentence...

Second, I'm confused as to: "...The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned...". What did you mean? Honestly, I'm not sure of the context. Could you expand?

Finally, let's get serious. Every gen from now on of every car commonly available will be dictated first by bean counters. A prime example is the new 991. Do you think, for a NY minute, that that car is actually more expensive to produce than say, a 993 in today's dollars (Euros)? Do you think the interior (shamelessly derived from a Panamera and Cayenne) is more, or less expensive than previous designs. Cross-platform parts are just that, and decease costs considerably.

The 991 is a very competent car. NOT a supercar. No way, no how.

Sadly, the new M3 shall be the same, no doubt.

Yes, it may be faster, and the ringers may take it around the 'Ring faster (which would be important if I drove the 'Ring... fast) but I'm sure things will be lost too.
 
#91 · (Edited)
Well Mark, with the slightest wink to hyperbole I would agree with most of your assesmsnt.

However, after two test drives you and I diverge on the 991;

First, would challenge that you took a 991 to its "limits" on a test drive. If you did, I'm happy that I wasn't anywhere near. I find this especially difficult to swallow considering your last sentence...

Second, I'm confused as to: "...The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned...". What did you mean? Honestly, I'm not sure of the context. Could you expand?

Finally, let's get serious. Every gen from now on of every car commonly available will be dictated first by bean counters. A prime example is the new 991. Do you think, for a NY minute, that that car is actually more expensive to produce than say, a 993 in today's dollars (Euros)? Do you think the interior (shamelessly derived from a Panamera and Cayenne) is more, or less expensive than previous designs. Cross-platform parts are just that, and decease costs considerably.

The 991 is a very competent car. NOT a supercar. No way, no how.

Sadly, the new M3 shall be the same, no doubt.

Yes, it may be faster, and the ringers may take it around the 'Ring faster (which would be important if I drove the 'Ring... fast) but I'm sure things will be lost too.
No...absolutely I didn't take the 991 to its limits but I was implying based on my own test drive and from other 991 owners feedback on 6speedonline.
I took it out for 20-30 miles with the rep and push it a little but not much.
I certainly know the difference between my 997's and the 991.
The 991/991S may not be super car status - perhaps follow on iterations of the 991 will have super car status...like the GT2, Turbo S.
The current Turbo S from the factory runs 0-60 in about 2.7 sec.

Attention to detail - My own personal opinion... I like how the 997 is designed (and 991), it has a single purpose of being a great all around sports car and the interior reflects it. My 997's are the best quality cars I've personally owned. No rattles, interior / exterior bits and pieces fit and finish is excellent (knock on wood)
I had good experience with my E46 M3 as well. Not so good with E92 - transmission and interior rattles that BMW couldn't really fix.
My wife's current 2011 E91 wagon has been good so far. We love the practicality and AWD of the E91

In terms of bean counting... I believe Porsche wants their interiors to have some sort of cohesiveness across all their cars... plus the current design is really nice. Name a a car company that doesn't do this?

By the way, I'd be curious to know your definition of "super car". The easy ones that come to my mind are Veyron, McLaren, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche GT2/GT, etc. come to my mind. When you drove the 991, what was your impression? (You did test drive it?)
 
#93 ·
Sadly, the latest issue of "Car" magazine pretty much eviscerates the 991 (relatively speaking, of course, as even they acknowledge that it's still a great car), blaming it on the electric steering and the (optional) dynamic chassis control. Although the latter can be deleted, the electric steering is what it is (at least for now), and has completely turned me off to the car (as well as to the new Boxster, the steering for which has had equally bad reviews). The "alive feeling" of the steering in a 911 had always been one of its best features, and it seems that in an attempt to save a few bucks Porsche may have truly alienated its most loyal group of buyers. Unlike a $40,000- $60,000 BMW 3-series which has become equally "softened" as time progresses and yet has picked up hundreds of thousands of "mass market" buyers, a 911 is a $100,000+ car for which true enthusiasts probably make up a significant slice of its buyers. I doubt that by deadening the steering Porsche will pick up a single "conquest sale" from, say, a Mercedes SL or Jaguar XK, and yet it may very well LOSE its most important core group of buyers. Now we'll just have to see if those engineers in Weissach can refine that new steering mechanism enough to put some real life back into it, or if they instead decide to go back to the hydraulic system. Meanwhile, I guess I may be keeping my M3 a lot longer than I thought I would, as that new 911 no longer seems worth its 60% price premium to me.
 
#94 · (Edited)
Yeah, I agree to some extent. When I drove the 991, it didn't feel any less than my 997's. In fact, I thought the 991 steering was quite good. I think 98% of the drivers out there including myself :D, will never really know the difference. I think the difference can only probably really felt on track or when the car is taking to it's limits. One thing is for sure, the new 991 is much more quieter and refine than my 997's. But I love my 997 (see attachment)

I a lot of new 991 owners including those who track their cars, say the 991 is just as good...check it out 6speedonline.com.

Hang in there, I hear the next M3 should be good...lighter, turbo, etc :thumbup:

I'm curious, if you were in charge of designing the next M3 and 911, what would you have done?
 

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#98 ·
Mark, yes drove the 991 twice. Felt the same. I don't really damn the steering separately. It's "OK". It's numb though

As far as an Elise vs. anything.... different feel entirely due to the unique physical characteristics (mass and roll centers) of the car. Nothing is like an Elise.
 
#99 ·
I recently got to spend a little time with a 991 Carrera PDK.

The 991 from all outward appearances is a 911, but the stretched wheelbase and significantly wider track, have endowed the 991 with the comfort of a luxury GT. The interior finishes have been significantly upgraded. I am 6"3" and the 991 has room to spare. The ride remains firm but is less punishing. I could not really push the car, but the car gave me the impression it was fast. One of the defining characteristics of past 911s was their braille-like steering feedback - the 991 does damp out some of the "graininess" of prior 911s. I agree with many that the 991 maybe slightly less "visceral" but I view it as a more refined car generally.

Even among Porsche faithful, the BMW M3 is often regarded as a better daily driver, but is deemed the lesser sports car. (After test driving a 997 and my M3 back to back, I preferred the M3 as both daily driver and as the more engaging sports/GT). I notice on Porsche Forums that many are bemoaning the 991. Most complain about its less visceral, less challenging, driving experience, and especially the steering. In general, IMO the 991 is less "raw" but remains an engaging car, and is a more viable daily driver than the 997.

The 991 looks like a 911 but I’m not sure it really is a “911”. It seems like it has morphed into its own unique thing. In a weird way the 991 seems more BMWish. I prefer the real deal.
 
#100 ·
>>In a weird way the 991 seems more BMWish. I prefer the real deal.<<

The first part of this is (sadly) undoubtedly true, but your preference for "the real deal" when "the real deal" underperforms the 991 in every metric except "rear legroom" doesn't make sense to me (assuming that we're leaving "price" out of the equation, which I admit is a huge assumption).
 
#101 · (Edited)
Your right - my conclusion is not logical, but sports cars in general are less about logic and more about passion.

I find that I uniquely "connect" to my M3 on the level of passion. Aesthetically and dynamically, irrespective of cost, I consider my M3 to be sublime. My M3 exquisitely addresses my needs and desires. In the past, only my modded 930 engendered such passion. What can I say...I like it.

When my lease is nearing its end, the 991 will be on my very short list. Alternatively, I may keep my M3. No bad choices.... :D
 
#104 ·
bumped
 
#108 · (Edited)
Boxtsers are fun... raw as hell. The c2s is the better be if you take care of it. You'll be able to get more for it on the backend if you dont rockstar it into a tree or a pool.

sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker
 
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