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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #76  
Old 07-07-2005, 07:50 AM
veroushka veroushka is offline
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Location: baltimore, md
 
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Talking Buying..

Your posts have all been very helpful.

I have been living in NYC for 5 years, so I don't drive. Now I am looking to get a car and I love the BMW 325...but my concerns are the same: snow. I will be moving to Chicago, so this is REALLY important.

It seems as though I'll be ok ith RWD if I get winter tires.....is that correct? I am a woman in my late 20's, so saftey is a big concern. Does anyone else have experience in heavy snow with the winter tires?

Budget-wise, I'll probably get a 2005 model since I can get a better price (with the new body type of the 2006, they'll be looking to get rid of the old ones fast).

the other car I am looking at is the H3 (I know- TOTALLY different). The only thing that is keeping me from that car is that maintenance is not included. It's brand new, so there isn't a lot out about it's performance, maintenance, actual costs etc. However, I am sure that this car would be a piece of cake in the snow.

Can anyone help me out....????

thanks!!
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  #77  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:11 AM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Location: MTL
 
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Mein Auto: BMW E90 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreco
I think the question was which system is best, not who's kinkier. Those who know...drive quattro.
This is arrogant BS. I owned a Quattro for three years, and I "know", thank you.
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  #78  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:18 AM
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Sean Sean is offline
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Mein Auto: '88 M3, '01 Z3, '06 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed328Ci
But that's not really a fair comparison. Should really be 325i vs A4 2.0T.

Ed

I totally agree. Gives the 330i a 55hp advantage.
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  #79  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:19 AM
obLu obLu is offline
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Location: Kirkland, WA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
Mein Auto: e90 330 6mt zsp
If this thread hasn't been beaten to death already, I'll pitch in my two bits. I'm in Seattle ... lots of rain blah blah but only occasional light snows. Problem is we have so many steep hills, that even a dusting of snow shuts down the city.

I had two e46's (99 328i and an 01 330cic) before going to Audi (03 A4 3.0 and now an 01 A8L), I'm expecting to put my order in or buy an e90, if they've got a decent one on the lot, here in the next few months. If that tells you anything.

Audi pros: AWD really puts the power down in the corners when it's wet. Interior quality and materials is absolutely beautiful (because they skimp in unseen areas). Snow traction even with summer tires is awe inspiring ... notice how I say traction. That's only GO, quattro didn't help stop or turn so that was downright dangerous when I was caught in a .25 dusting of snow with contisport 2 summer tires. I had to creep along at 5mph because every touch of the brake pedal brought out ABS. But I got up my steep driveway without the traction control ever kicking in.

Audi cons: AWD handling. The engine is still out over the front axle and the front tires are still doing too much work. The result is terminal boring understeer no matter what you do. Even a stiffer rear sway bar doesn't help much balancing the car out. Ride quality in Audi's suck. You either get stiff and floaty with the standard suspension or stiffer and floaty with sport suspension. Maybe they've fixed it quite a bit since my 03, but I'm still reading stuff in the rags saying Audi's suspensions are just too stiff for what you get handling wise. To sum it up, it's rock hard when it doesn't need to be, and too soft when you don't want it to be. They just don't spend enough time or money developing the suspension for real roads. After 3 hr's of driving on our crappy freeways I'd be more beat up from my stock sport packaged audi than I was my H&R and Bilstein e46.

Buy the BMW, and buy a set of studless winter tires like the pilot alpin 2 or similar and find wherever you can to store them. I know you're resisting because you don't want to deal with it, but with either car if you can't stay home when it snows you really should. The biggest thing is, German cars are heavy and they take a lot to get them stopped when traction's bad. M&S all seasons will help just a tiny bit over summer tires, but they're still a compromise. If you're buying a BMW why compromise?
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  #80  
Old 07-08-2005, 08:31 PM
maxreco maxreco is offline
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Location: Cape Cod
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 59
Mein Auto: 1994 325ic
Quote:
Originally Posted by veroushka
Your posts have all been very helpful.

I have been living in NYC for 5 years, so I don't drive. Now I am looking to get a car and I love the BMW 325...but my concerns are the same: snow. I will be moving to Chicago, so this is REALLY important.

It seems as though I'll be ok ith RWD if I get winter tires.....is that correct? I am a woman in my late 20's, so saftey is a big concern. Does anyone else have experience in heavy snow with the winter tires?

Budget-wise, I'll probably get a 2005 model since I can get a better price (with the new body type of the 2006, they'll be looking to get rid of the old ones fast).

the other car I am looking at is the H3 (I know- TOTALLY different). The only thing that is keeping me from that car is that maintenance is not included. It's brand new, so there isn't a lot out about it's performance, maintenance, actual costs etc. However, I am sure that this car would be a piece of cake in the snow.

Can anyone help me out....????

thanks!!
There are no hills in Chicago, at least when comapared to Pittsburgh (the original writer's hometown), so the RWD limitation isn't as big of a deal. I say get what you love.
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  #81  
Old 07-08-2005, 08:47 PM
maxreco maxreco is offline
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Location: Cape Cod
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Mein Auto: 1994 325ic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
This is arrogant BS. I owned a Quattro for three years, and I "know", thank you.
Congradulations! My first one was a 1986 purchased new after a test drive on a snowmobile trail in the mountains. 3 more have followed since, as well as 3 BMW's and a Merc, all driven in snow. I apologize if that sounds arrogant also, however it blows my mind to hear rwd and quattro compared equally on the topic of traction. There is only one answer to the original question. He should get the Audi.

Max
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  #82  
Old 07-09-2005, 06:38 AM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Location: MTL
 
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Posts: 2,892
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Sir, you are an excellent bull****ter.
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  #83  
Old 07-09-2005, 07:21 AM
aloyouis aloyouis is offline
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Location: MI
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 157
Mein Auto: 2006 530i
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreco
Congradulations! My first one was a 1986 purchased new after a test drive on a snowmobile trail in the mountains. 3 more have followed since, as well as 3 BMW's and a Merc, all driven in snow. I apologize if that sounds arrogant also, however it blows my mind to hear rwd and quattro compared equally on the topic of traction. There is only one answer to the original question. He should get the Audi.

Max

Hey I remember that dealer! He let me test drive one going the wrong way on the interstate during a blizzard! NOT!

Your full of it.
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  #84  
Old 07-09-2005, 10:02 AM
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xspeedy xspeedy is offline
mmm... carbs!
Location: Austin, TX
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,055
Mein Auto: 2007 E90 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueguydotcom
Wait a second...tight budget yet you got cold weather, navi, bmw assist and automatic? WTF?
And PDC? I second the WTF response. Those are pretty worthless options.
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  #85  
Old 07-09-2005, 06:58 PM
maxreco maxreco is offline
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Location: Cape Cod
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Mein Auto: 1994 325ic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
Sir, you are an excellent bull****ter.
Thanks!
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  #86  
Old 07-09-2005, 07:01 PM
maxreco maxreco is offline
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Location: Cape Cod
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 59
Mein Auto: 1994 325ic
Quote:
Originally Posted by aloyouis
Hey I remember that dealer! He let me test drive one going the wrong way on the interstate during a blizzard! NOT!

Your full of it.
Flynn Audi, Pittsfield, MA.

Just stay off the trail.
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  #87  
Old 07-10-2005, 10:42 AM
OneLuckyPuppy OneLuckyPuppy is offline
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Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2004 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by obLu
If this thread hasn't been beaten to death already, I'll pitch in my two bits. I'm in Seattle ... lots of rain blah blah but only occasional light snows. Problem is we have so many steep hills, that even a dusting of snow shuts down the city.

I had two e46's (99 328i and an 01 330cic) before going to Audi (03 A4 3.0 and now an 01 A8L), I'm expecting to put my order in or buy an e90, if they've got a decent one on the lot, here in the next few months. If that tells you anything.

Audi pros: AWD really puts the power down in the corners when it's wet. Interior quality and materials is absolutely beautiful (because they skimp in unseen areas). Snow traction even with summer tires is awe inspiring ... notice how I say traction. That's only GO, quattro didn't help stop or turn so that was downright dangerous when I was caught in a .25 dusting of snow with contisport 2 summer tires. I had to creep along at 5mph because every touch of the brake pedal brought out ABS. But I got up my steep driveway without the traction control ever kicking in.

Audi cons: AWD handling. The engine is still out over the front axle and the front tires are still doing too much work. The result is terminal boring understeer no matter what you do. Even a stiffer rear sway bar doesn't help much balancing the car out. Ride quality in Audi's suck. You either get stiff and floaty with the standard suspension or stiffer and floaty with sport suspension. Maybe they've fixed it quite a bit since my 03, but I'm still reading stuff in the rags saying Audi's suspensions are just too stiff for what you get handling wise. To sum it up, it's rock hard when it doesn't need to be, and too soft when you don't want it to be. They just don't spend enough time or money developing the suspension for real roads. After 3 hr's of driving on our crappy freeways I'd be more beat up from my stock sport packaged audi than I was my H&R and Bilstein e46.

Buy the BMW, and buy a set of studless winter tires like the pilot alpin 2 or similar and find wherever you can to store them. I know you're resisting because you don't want to deal with it, but with either car if you can't stay home when it snows you really should. The biggest thing is, German cars are heavy and they take a lot to get them stopped when traction's bad. M&S all seasons will help just a tiny bit over summer tires, but they're still a compromise. If you're buying a BMW why compromise?
Excellent comment, Audi has a AWD with front biais which means that it is primarily a front wheel drive until there is a spin, this is when the rear wheels are solicited. Also engine weight and most of tranny weight over the front axle which renders the car light from the rear. The fun about BMW's is their 50/50 weight and RWD, creating less understeer and throttle oversteer upon demand. So if my choice was beside an Audi with Quattro, and BTW I live in Canada where I see six month of snow, or a BMW with RWD I would got toward the BMW in a heartbeat (which I did previously)! If I lived in Pittsburg ( was once there on business), with houses clinging to cliffs, I would be tempted to go towards the Subaru Legacy GT (AWD), and before anybody comments or flame me make sure you have tried the car. In MT form it has 50/50 differential setting and plenty of HP and torque (250, 250). The only change I would make to the car is the springs and sway bars (STI). This car with this setup is the closest to a 3 series that I have tried for cheaper, fun to drive and absolutely better going up a hill and cornering (AWD), lower priced with better secondary market than an Audi and a better reliability track record than Audi, and a heck of a sleeper too!

All of that being said nothing replaces good quality winter tires! As interesting as it can be, there are a multitude of winter tires for different applications and most people by based on third party recommendations when their weather patterns are totally different then the individuals that has made the reference. Make sure that the treads on your tires are adapted to weather in your area and driving style.

Cheers
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  #88  
Old 07-10-2005, 10:59 AM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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Location: New York
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,683
Mein Auto: Depends on the day!
AUDI:
Under ideal conditions power is split 50/50 front to rear. But in extreme cases up to 67% of the engine's power can be directed to a single wheel. The benefits to the driver are safety, performance, power, and control in copious amounts.When cornering, all four wheels of a car must cover varying distances. The task of the center differential is to compensate for the differences between front and rear axles, and to distribute engine power between front and rear wheels. The center differential is the heart of Audi's permanent all-wheel driveline. Depending on the driving situation and road conditions, the system automatically regulates the distribution of power within milliseconds. This takes place by means of either (depending on model) the Torsen® differential, Haldex™ clutch, or hydraulic multi-plate clutch. Influencing parameters in the control process include engine speed and torque, wheel spreads, and longitudinal and lateral acceleration.
Thanks to the continuous and situation-related distribution of power via the center differential, quattro® all-wheel drive ensures excellent propulsion at all times. Advantages result in all driving situations, whether the driver is on snow and ice, towing a trailer, or on an ideally surfaced road in optimal weather, quattro truly sets new standards in terms of driving safety and handling.
The locking function of the center differential and the Electronic Differential Lock make sure that an Audi with quattro® all-wheel drive can still pull away with only one wheel able to transfer engine power to the road.
The principle is simple: in the same way that four brakes ensure better deceleration, four driven wheels enable better acceleration and cornering stability. Legendary Audi quattro® all-wheel drive is the systematic application of this basic physical principle.
But that's not all. Depending on the driving situation and road surface, quattro technology also distributes drive power continuously between the front and rear axles. Especially on slippery surfaces, this means better traction and safe progress, even in conditions in which two driven wheels of a vehicle are no longer able to grip.
The division of propulsive power between all four wheels is the basis of the excellent handling and safety of Audi models with quattro. The potential of this drive concept is further optimized by a series of control systems for brake and engine management:
The Anti-lock Brake System (ABS)
Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD)
Electronic Differential Lock (EDL)
Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR)
All of the above assist in increasing traction when accelerating or braking. Furthermore, when cornering, the standard Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) increases directional stability by comparing target and actual physical driving forces.Here's how it works: If one of the wheels on an axle loses grip and starts spinning, propulsive power has to be diverted to the other wheel by the axle's differential. Previously, a mechanical differential lock enabled this to take place. Now, the Electronic Differential Lock has replaced the mechanical lock, effectively transferring the excess power of the spinning wheel to the other wheels with better traction.
On an Audi with quattro, if both wheels on an axle start spinning, the continuously controlled locking of the center differential ensures that most of the torque is transmitted to the other axle. In this way, propulsion is guaranteed in almost all situations.
BMW
The intelligent all-wheel drive system xDrive delivers maximum driving dynamics and traction by distributing engine power between the front and rear axles variably and instantaneously. The central element is an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch which reacts in a split-second to any change in road conditions.
The higher pressure on this clutch, the more power is transferred to the chain-driven front axle; the lower the pressure, the more distance there is between the clutch plates, and more power is transferred to the rear axle.
This variable power distribution system has a positive influence on the self-steering behaviour of the vehicle equipped with xDrive. In contrast o conventional all-wheel drive systems, xDrive uses the sensors of the Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system to constantly gather important information about the vehicle's performance, such as the rotation speed of the wheels, the angle of steering or position of the accelerator. This information is processed immediately, enabling xDrive to ascertain if your vehicle is about to over- or understeer, and it takes corrective action if necessary.
If xDrive identifies understeering on a bend, i.e. the front wheels of the vehicle are beginning to drift towards the outer edge of the bend, the system reduces the amount of power reaching the front axle and raises the amount reaching ystem reduces the amount of power reaching the front axle and raises the amount reaching the rear wheels. If a vehicle is oversteering, i.e. it could spin around completely because the angle of steering is too acute, xDrive channels power away from the rear axle to the front axle.
The result? Increased directional stability, better roadholding, more accurate steering and easy control even in extreme situations. DSC is activated only when xDrive cannot maintain stability by itself: DSC cuts engine output and activates individual wheels as necessary.
When travelling on surfaces with contrasting road-holding conditions, e.g. alternating between packed ice and loose snow, drive power is variably transferred to the axle with better traction. This ensures the best possible performance and excellent handling regardless of the prevailing conditions, and optimum control is guaranteed even on slippery surfaces.

Both system utilize brakes and engine management (ESP/DSC) the real difference is Audi's ability to always transfer power, not just when slipping, this aids in cornering and traction when starting off. Audi can also put the power to one wheel if necessary. Audi has no electronic contol mechanism for the actual AWD, BMW relies on slipping electronics and is chain driven. Oh yeah and the AUDI is NOT FRONT BIASED, it is constantly adjusting !!!
Hope that helps!
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  #89  
Old 07-10-2005, 06:36 PM
maxreco maxreco is offline
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Location: Cape Cod
 
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Excellent work mate! You obviously KNOW quattro! If any additional info is desired about the Torsen differential, go to http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf for an ASME white paper on traction control. In it you will find that there are many additional bebnefits to the system used by Audi Vs BMW such as not being influenced by ambient temperature or wear.

Mapezzul, I think what oneluckypuppy might have been getting at was the front weight bias, which is true. Everyone has a preference, and I enjoy driving rwd on dry roads as much as awd. It takes time and practice to learn how to get the most from awd, it's not as easy as rwd (read "boring" from obLu). It's a matter of personal preference, and if you can't decide you can always own one of each, as I do.

Audi's quattro racing record speaks for itself.
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  #90  
Old 07-11-2005, 07:53 PM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
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Regarding Audi's ability to transfer power to 1 wheel--BMW also has the same "electronic differential lock" type of feature. In both cases, they use the brakes to transfer power from side to side; not a real limited slip differential.
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