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  #1  
Old 06-25-2005, 08:08 PM
bdbdbd bdbdbd is offline
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Fee's

About to put down a deposit for a 325i . My question is , they are charging me $180 TRAINING FEE ( the salesperson told me its charged to every car in the US) , and the other fee is $278 DEALER ADVERTISING GROUP Co-op advertising ( also told me this fee is charged to every car sold by dealers in the LA area). Adding another $45 for Documentation

Did anyone else have to pay for those fee ???
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2005, 08:49 PM
Steply Steply is offline
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I think the 180 fee is actually incorporated in the invoice price (when I discussed this with my sales person, we found that the ivoice base price should include this. The $300 or so "california" fee is negotiable (unless you already negotiated a really low price) I reduced my "over invoice" offer when I found out about that fee, and my sales person was cool about it...
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2005, 08:55 PM
CJsCar CJsCar is offline
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The training fee is legit, I have seen it on the invoices, but the advertising is a regional thing. Many times like brands in a market will pool their moneys into a collective advertising account. Not all dealerships will blatently try to recoupe it from a customer though.
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:23 PM
bdbdbd bdbdbd is offline
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They are also charging me $293.75 for LICENSE FEEs , is this normal ??

sorry for the noob questions , first time buying a car. THANKS
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2005, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbdbd
They are also charging me $293.75 for LICENSE FEEs , is this normal ??

sorry for the noob questions , first time buying a car. THANKS
Yes that's for the DMV for your license and registartion. Under $300 is actually better than I expected.

Also the $45 doc fee is normal on new car sales in CA.
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  #6  
Old 06-25-2005, 11:57 PM
Athos Athos is offline
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I wish my business could charge customers for training and advertising! Cost of business. I wouldn't agree to these.
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2005, 12:50 AM
Wallenrod Wallenrod is offline
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Normal? It is simply another word for profit. All fees except for DMV are pure profit. Document preparation fee? You mean you have to pay them for doing the paperwork to sell you a car? I simply deducted my over invoice amount by each new fee introduced abd that was it. Call it dealer offset fee to make it sound more legitimate
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2005, 07:16 PM
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westwest888 westwest888 is offline
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I bought my e90 325i in Virginia. I told the dealer that I wanted to negotiate upward from invoice and slid a spreadsheet across the desk that had the wholesale prices of my car and options, dealer profit of $1000, and sales tax. I made it clear that $1000 was the maximum amount of money I was willing to leave to this dealership, so if there were fees those came out of the $1000. The fee was $100 dealer somethingorother fee, and we ended up meeting half way on it. So I paid $1050 over invoice, which was fine with me. If I had really pushed the guy for a while, I could have gotten the other $50 but it wasn't worth souring our relationship over such a small sum of money.

Those fees they tried to hit you with are hot garbage. I would have walked out. A tactic I used was the spreadsheet I handed the guy had a list of dealers I was planning to visit complete with a point of contact (a recommended salesman), addresses, and phone numbers. If our negotiation went sour, he knew I had several other stops to make that day.
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2005, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJsCar
The training fee is legit, I have seen it on the invoices, but the advertising is a regional thing. Many times like brands in a market will pool their moneys into a collective advertising account. Not all dealerships will blatently try to recoupe it from a customer though.

Yes and no.. if your dealer participates in the local co-op, there will be a charge on the factory invoice for MACO. This is not a bogus charge, and every dealer that participates will pay it. While some might itemize it, others just include it as part of their invoice price, since it is added into the invoice price at the end of the invoice. If you work off the dealer's invoice, odds are they are already including MACO in that number.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888
...

Those fees they tried to hit you with are hot garbage. I would have walked out. A tactic I used was the spreadsheet I handed the guy had a list of dealers I was planning to visit complete with a point of contact (a recommended salesman), addresses, and phone numbers. If our negotiation went sour, he knew I had several other stops to make that day.
As I said in another thread to you... YOU... are a freakin' IDIOT. Your misinformation and ignorance also make you a liar... and you should be ashamed for spreading lies and misinformation.

Training Fee: $180... charged by BMW... part of the COST of the car charged by BMW to the dealer.

Not a TRICK.

MACO Fee: $300 (for us in CA) based on the region you are in... as others in this thread have said... if the dealer shows you a DCS.net print out of the invoice and it's on there... then THEY PAID it and it is part of the cost of your car.

Not a Trick.


Those of you here that think a dealer's primary goal is to try and rip you off... step up... but before you post your ignorant hysteria... LIST exactly what you do for a living and how you and your company generates income... I would love to see what type of person goes around spreading this type of Bull SH!T.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2005, 04:47 AM
wac77 wac77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Training Fee: $180... charged by BMW... part of the COST of the car charged by BMW to the dealer.

Not a TRICK.
But it is included in the invoice, and should not be added to the invoice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
MACO Fee: $300 (for us in CA) based on the region you are in... as others in this thread have said... if the dealer shows you a DCS.net print out of the invoice and it's on there... then THEY PAID it and it is part of the cost of your car.

Not a Trick.
But it should still be possible to conduct a negotiation on a price inclusive of any MACO fees.
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:51 AM
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westwest888 westwest888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Your misinformation and ignorance also make you a liar... and you should be ashamed for spreading lies and misinformation.
You're presenting a very one sided point of view. This is not a "profit tactics" forum on some trade website for bmw dealers. People are on this forum because they are researching a purchase, trying to get a good deal or are talking about the nuances of their BMW.

If I wanted to read the dealer's balance sheet, I'd ask for their accountant. As a consumer I don't concern myself with the dealer's costs of doing business like training, advertising, utility bills, and whatever else less reputable dealers will insist are non negotiable costs passed on to the consumer.

Remember speedfreak!, the only reason your job (car salesperson) exists is to sell options, financing, warranties AND NOW fees, which are a 100% profit profit center and offer no direct benefit to the consumer. You make it seem like BMW is the only car dealership that has training and advertising fees. Come back to reality and pull your head out of the proverbial baravian sand. BMW makes a great car and this is noteworthy and special. A car dealer is a car dealer - some have better service than others, but it's basically just a storage lot and finance mill.
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  #13  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:05 PM
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westwest888 westwest888 is offline
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And one more thing, those "fees" are elective costs of business that the owner of your dealership signed up for. Advertising is expensive, but it draws in more customers. If you're going to charge me $250 for advertising, you had better put a personalized 2" x 2" ad in the Sunday Washington Post automotive section that says "westwest888 come test drive a new 3 at your local overpriced BMW dealer."
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  #14  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wac77
But it is included in the invoice, and should not be added to the invoice.



But it should still be possible to conduct a negotiation on a price inclusive of any MACO fees.
When you have an actual INVOICE in front of you... you will see it at the bottom of the page right above the MACO fee. If your negotiating above dealer cost... of course they shouldn't add this twice. This is very simple... ask for a copy of the Invoice from DCS and you will see exactly what the dealer pays. At that point... I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to negotiate what you are willing to pay... and what they are willing to accept as a price for goods.
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  #15  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:02 PM
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This is all rather silly. The dealer has a price below which they will not sell a car. You have a price above which you will not buy a car. Make your offer; the dealer will take it or leave it. If you think another will take it, go somewhere else. If you go to three or so places with your offer and they all turn you down, the market is telling you other people are willing to pay more than you are, and you're SOL. Arguing about whether you "should" or "shouldn't" include the advertising fee is ridiculous.

If you're offering invoice (not including training/MACO) + 500 you're offering basically what the dealer paid for the car. If he's hungry, he might take it. Throw in another few hundred and you have a better chance. Just be aware that offering less than the dealer paid for the car is unlikely to be successful. The particulars of the fees are really irrelevant.
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  #16  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888
You're presenting a very one sided point of view. This is not a "profit tactics" forum on some trade website for bmw dealers. People are on this forum because they are researching a purchase, trying to get a good deal or are talking about the nuances of their BMW.

If I wanted to read the dealer's balance sheet, I'd ask for their accountant. As a consumer I don't concern myself with the dealer's costs of doing business like training, advertising, utility bills, and whatever else less reputable dealers will insist are non negotiable costs passed on to the consumer.
This has nothing to do with "profit tactics"... people are here because they love BMWs and hangin' with people who love BMWs... good people, that is. You are a very good example of bad people. You lack maturity and intelligence... and yet you go around sounding off like you know what you are talking about... as if you are some kind of authority on the subject of doing business. All you have done is exposed yourself for the ignorant child that you are.

As I said before:
Your misinformation and ignorance also make you a liar... and you should be ashamed for spreading lies and misinformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888
Remember speedfreak!, the only reason your job (car salesperson) exists is to sell options, financing, warranties AND NOW fees, which are a 100% profit profit center and offer no direct benefit to the consumer. You make it seem like BMW is the only car dealership that has training and advertising fees. Come back to reality and pull your head out of the proverbial baravian sand. BMW makes a great car and this is noteworthy and special. A car dealer is a car dealer - some have better service than others, but it's basically just a storage lot and finance mill.
All this statement does is prove EVERYTHING I have said about you. Thank You!

The question had to do with fees... the OP asked if any one else had been charged these fees. The problem is in the question. EVERY dealer gets charged these fees (MACO is by choice)... it's a cost of doing business... which you know nothing about. They are NOT profit sources for the dealer. THAT is a LIE... and again... you should be ashamed.
IF you are going to work a deal (aka. negotiate) from invoice... then ask for the invoice and work the deal. IF a dealer says they are not going to "charge you" for MACO or what ever... they are simply telling you what you want to hear... THEY will still have to pay it so that simply means that they are willing to take less for the car.
Example:
Car invoice is $35K (including Training/MACO)
You say I will pay $1000 over cost... and I refuse to pay that "bogus" MACO fee... that's just another way for you to steal my money...
After your sales person takes a moment to maintain their cool... thinking to themselves "What a f*cking Idiot"... they will go up to the desk where they tell the boss what an idiot you are... and asks if they are willing to sell the car for $700 over invoice... IF they had agreed... they will come back and tell you... "You win... $1000 over invoice and we won't charge you the MACO fee..."
AGAIN... the fee will get paid to BMW... whether you believe it or not.


Your opinion about Dealerships and car sales people is the very root of this issue... and it is what shapes my opinion of you... and I'm sure, this is the case for others too. Every single person in here who has ever owned a biz... worked in sales... even sold cars... (and I promise you... the number is rather large ) can read your posts and see for themselves what a serious freakin' idiot you really are. I would almost guess that you have never worked a day in your life... but I would hate to insult any burger flippers in here. The only thing you have proven is that you wasted untold thousands on an education that will surely result in you becoming average over the course of your miserable pathetic life.

Who knows... maybe after the world has had its way with you for a while... and you've had the chance to wise up... gain some serious wisdom... maybe then you will come back to these posts and realize how wrong you were to characterize an entire industry as well as the good, honest people who work in that industry... the way you have
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  #17  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LA X3
This is all rather silly. The dealer has a price below which they will not sell a car. You have a price above which you will not buy a car. Make your offer; the dealer will take it or leave it. If you think another will take it, go somewhere else. If you go to three or so places with your offer and they all turn you down, the market is telling you other people are willing to pay more than you are, and you're SOL. Arguing about whether you "should" or "shouldn't" include the advertising fee is ridiculous.

If you're offering invoice (not including training/MACO) + 500 you're offering basically what the dealer paid for the car. If he's hungry, he might take it. Throw in another few hundred and you have a better chance. Just be aware that offering less than the dealer paid for the car is unlikely to be successful. The particulars of the fees are really irrelevant.

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  #18  
Old 07-14-2005, 03:52 PM
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I must say that there doesn't appear to be an accepted practice for "over invoice" pricing. When I was looking for my 325i and sent out e-mail to several dealers asking for $XXXX over invoice, I got a variety of responses. Some dealers charged MACO + Training Fee, just MACO, or no additional fees. I just took the price from the dealer who charged no additional fee to get the absolute price (rather than invoice + $XXXX), and sent e-mail back to the other dealers to see if they could match or beat the price I was offering. I made sure that they didn't add any additional fees by specifying $XX,XXX + tax + license + doc only. I then just selected the dealer closest to me to pick up the car.

I don't know if other dealers besides BMW try to charge for advertising and training fees. I've never had additional fees added for advertising or training when I negotiated $XXXX over invoice for other brands. In any case, like LA X3 said, you have a set price at which you will not pay over. If you offer an absolute price (which might be $XXXX over invoice), then there will be no confusion.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceDoc
I must say that there doesn't appear to be an accepted practice for "over invoice" pricing. When I was looking for my 325i and sent out e-mail to several dealers asking for $XXXX over invoice, I got a variety of responses. Some dealers charged MACO + Training Fee, just MACO, or no additional fees. I just took the price from the dealer who charged no additional fee to get the absolute price (rather than invoice + $XXXX), and sent e-mail back to the other dealers to see if they could match or beat the price I was offering. I made sure that they didn't add any additional fees by specifying $XX,XXX + tax + license + doc only. I then just selected the dealer closest to me to pick up the car.

I don't know if other dealers besides BMW try to charge for advertising and training fees. I've never had additional fees added for advertising or training when I negotiated $XXXX over invoice for other brands. In any case, like LA X3 said, you have a set price at which you will not pay over. If you offer an absolute price (which might be $XXXX over invoice), then there will be no confusion.
Dealers may be different in how the talk with you... but ALL dealers pay the same thing for their BMWs. MACO is regional and optional... if a dealer is a part of the national advertising program... then the applicable fee will be added to the price they pay for each car. Regardless of whether you know this or not... when you have purchased a BMW... those fees were paid. Obviously... if you work with a dealer that does not do co-op advertising... then they may point out that they don't "charge you" a MACO fee in an effort to differentiate themselves from the dealers that do the advertising.

LA X3 nailed it... the dealer pays a price (including these fees)... you pay a price... the difference between the two is their profit. It is what it is.
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  #20  
Old 07-14-2005, 04:36 PM
Krochelli Krochelli is offline
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speedfreak is right on..

some have MACO in socal, others don't. the training fee is part of the edmunds invoice if you need further clarification. i know as that was what tied out the invoices together (ie. invoice + training = edmunds invoice)

all-in-all, if you are fighting for 300 bucks, think seriously about why you are buying a 35k car. 300 doc prep fees and the like are questionable, but MACO isnt'.

Keith
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  #21  
Old 07-14-2005, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
After your sales person takes a moment to maintain their cool... thinking to themselves "What a f*cking Idiot"... they will go up to the desk where they tell the boss what an idiot you are... and asks if they are willing to sell the car for $700 over invoice... IF they had agreed... they will come back and tell you... "You win... $1000 over invoice and we won't charge you the MACO fee..."
AGAIN... the fee will get paid to BMW... whether you believe it or not.
FYI: this post has been reported by an anonymous member for language.

Please tone it down a bit...

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Old 07-14-2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
When you have an actual INVOICE in front of you... you will see it at the bottom of the page right above the MACO fee. If your negotiating above dealer cost... of course they shouldn't add this twice. This is very simple... ask for a copy of the Invoice from DCS and you will see exactly what the dealer pays. At that point... I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to negotiate what you are willing to pay... and what they are willing to accept as a price for goods.
Mine does not include training fee, nor do I recall seeing it on the DCS webpage when going through with my sales guy. My sales guy was very candid with me, he could not budge on MACO but took out Doc fees (which again, is supposed to be mandatory). And I did not pay any training fee. At the end of it, the way we BOTH see it is how much I am willing to pay, and how much he's willing to sell. Then we negotiate!
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Old 07-14-2005, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon
Please tone it down a bit...

For a second, I thought I was on the Edmunds.com "questions for a car dealer" forum
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2005, 07:04 PM
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For a second, I thought I was on the Edmunds.com "questions for a car dealer" forum


Hmmmm... Excuse me?
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Old 07-14-2005, 07:20 PM
ger3sf ger3sf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon


Hmmmm... Excuse me?
I get a kick out of some of these Edmunds forums...a few weeks ago, the host shut the following forum down so folks can calm down.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee9c8b3
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