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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #1  
Old 08-13-2005, 07:11 PM
InspireSiR InspireSiR is offline
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Inline 6 vs. V8

I was over on m3forum.net and there was a thread asking if people are going to keep their E46M3 or trade for an E90M3.

Someone posted that he will keep his E46 since it is the last year with the inline 6 motor.

Is there a reason someone would prefer an inline 6 design instead of a V8 with 60-100 more hp? Or is this just a case of an E46 M3 owner having buyer's remorse? (Excuse to keep his current car than trade when the time comes)
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2005, 07:15 PM
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It's silliness. The E46 M3 needs somethign more like an LS7. It's WAY too heavy to to use the gutless wonders BMW likes.
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  #3  
Old 08-13-2005, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
It's silliness. The E46 M3 needs somethign more like an LS7. It's WAY too heavy to to use the gutless wonders BMW likes.
Hey Nick, if its so gutless and heavy, why the hell do you drive one... on the track of all places? Maybe you should go get a real track car... like a vette....
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  #4  
Old 08-14-2005, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InspireSiR
I was over on m3forum.net and there was a thread asking if people are going to keep their E46M3 or trade for an E90M3.

Someone posted that he will keep his E46 since it is the last year with the inline 6 motor.

Is there a reason someone would prefer an inline 6 design instead of a V8 with 60-100 more hp? Or is this just a case of an E46 M3 owner having buyer's remorse? (Excuse to keep his current car than trade when the time comes)
dude. You drive a Honda. I plan to keep mine.
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2005, 11:26 AM
InspireSiR InspireSiR is offline
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Sorry, I didn't change my profile. I now drive a 2002 540i.

But I plan to trade it in a year or two for an E46 or E90. That's part of the reason I was asking the original question.

Is an inline 6 design better than a V8? I've heard the 6 is smoother than anything else. But then again, Ferrari uses V8's. What gives?
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2005, 12:20 PM
rommelrules rommelrules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InspireSiR
Is an inline 6 design better than a V8? I've heard the 6 is smoother than anything else. But then again, Ferrari uses V8's. What gives?
I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.
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  #7  
Old 08-14-2005, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rommelrules
I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.
Interesting, why did you purchase the M3 when its clearly not a high torque motor?
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  #8  
Old 08-14-2005, 02:34 PM
rommelrules rommelrules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Interesting, why did you purchase the M3 when its clearly not a high torque motor?
A) Wanted to do a Euro Delivery. Audi doesn't offer it. Mercedes has no stick shift.
Porsche charges a high premium. Saab and Volvo-- no comment.

B) In its price range, nothing comes close to the M3.
Sure, I'd take a 997S (even though it's not a monstrous V8) over the M3, but, alas, they're not in the same price range.
Given reason A), buying used was not an option.

C) There are other cars with higher torque (Corvette Z06, M5)
but then I would have had to compromise in all the other areas I love about the M3.

D) It may not be a high torque motor, but compared to my E36 M3, the E46 M3 feels like a V8.
Sure, I could get an S4 with the V8, but then I'd miss the handling and the raw feeling.

Besides I have a V8 All Road, when I want to get my torque fix.
I believe it's the same engine as the S4, just detuned because of tranny issues.

Does this answer your question?
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2005, 02:35 PM
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Currnt inline 6 has an upper limit on displacement due to bore spacing. And to even get that, you end up with a very long stroke.

So, it ended up a ground up redesign of the I-6, or chop 2 cylinders off of the V-10 to make a V-8. MUCH cheaper R&D.

As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.

And Porsche did do a V-8 in the 928.

As for the question, which is better, the answer is none and all. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and what your limitations are.
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2005, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rommelrules
A) Wanted to do a Euro Delivery. Audi doesn't offer it. Mercedes has no stick shift.
Porsche charges a high premium. Saab and Volvo-- no comment.

B) In its price range, nothing comes close to the M3.
Sure, I'd take a 997S (even though it's not a monstrous V8) over the M3, but, alas, they're not in the same price range.
Given reason A), buying used was not an option.

C) There are other cars with higher torque (Corvette Z06, M5)
but then I would have had to compromise in all the other areas I love about the M3.

D) It may not be a high torque motor, but compared to my E36 M3, the E46 M3 feels like a V8.
Sure, I could get an S4 with the V8, but then I'd miss the handling and the raw feeling.

Besides I have a V8 All Road, when I want to get my torque fix.
I believe it's the same engine as the S4, just detuned because of tranny issues.

Does this answer your question?

Uh.... yes

I agree, M3 certainly hits the "sweet spot", thats why I bought one. I also like the fact that its a high revving six pushing that kind of HP normally aspirated.
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Hey Nick, if its so gutless and heavy, why the hell do you drive one... on the track of all places? Maybe you should go get a real track car... like a vette....
I wanted a back seat. I still regret not keeping my wagon and buying a Z06, though.
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  #12  
Old 08-14-2005, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I wanted a back seat. I still regret not keeping my wagon and buying a Z06, though.

Wow..... I guess you really don't like your M3..... well you could always get rid of it.

I think the steering on vettes feels numb, so that alone kills it for me.
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  #13  
Old 08-14-2005, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Wow..... I guess you really don't like your M3..... well you could always get rid of it.

I think the steering on vettes feels numb, so that alone kills it for me.
The M3 is a great commuter vehicle. I just expected it to be something that it absolutely isn't, no matter what the badge claims.
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  #14  
Old 08-14-2005, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.
So the F2004 Formula One car with a V10 isn't a Real Ferrari?
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  #15  
Old 08-15-2005, 06:42 AM
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To me there is somthing about an inline six that seperates it from any type of V engine, there is a certain smoothness you get that is especially evident at idle. The inline six cylinder makes for a fairly balanced engine front to back as well as side to side. The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts. But then there is the sound of a BMW I6 I am only 19 and I can recognize it the second I hear one... especially the Ms (Family owns 7 BMW I6s between 3 brothers, 2 S52s, 2 S54s). But having said all of these things I would have to see and hear the V8 in action to really be able to decide which one will be my dream car, the M3 or the M2 (which should have a I6 in it).
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkF1
To me there is somthing about an inline six that seperates it from any type of V engine, there is a certain smoothness you get that is especially evident at idle. The inline six cylinder makes for a fairly balanced engine front to back as well as side to side. The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts. But then there is the sound of a BMW I6 I am only 19 and I can recognize it the second I hear one... especially the Ms (Family owns 7 BMW I6s between 3 brothers, 2 S52s, 2 S54s). But having said all of these things I would have to see and hear the V8 in action to really be able to decide which one will be my dream car, the M3 or the M2 (which should have a I6 in it).
so this is about sound? change the muffler. Heck, go with a glass pack. That will be loud.
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2005, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 16hr Day
so this is about sound? change the muffler. Heck, go with a glass pack. That will be loud.
Its not a loud... it a mechanical sound I dont know how to explain it all I know is it is unique, just like the sound of a flat 6 in a porsche.
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2005, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by j2
So the F2004 Formula One car with a V10 isn't a Real Ferrari?
OK< real Ferrari ROAD cars.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2005, 07:46 AM
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Until the e46, the 3 series never really needed a v8...But because of the excessive weight that the m3 took on, I'd say that it should have happened with the e46...And not to say that the power to weight was phenomenal in the e36, or e30 4cyl...But the engines were slightly tunable, to get you where you wanted to be...

I'm an idiot, and I cannot get enough HP..I'll only adapt and feed for more..I think the MB SL65 that my old man just purchased, has finally got me where I would want to be...from 60 and onward, the car just will not give up...the torque is so high, and so flat throughout all RPM's, it's ridiculous..But it too takes on some weight, and has a slight issue with traction...But now were talking $200k and twin turbo'd V12...I'd guess you'd have to turn to Williams to get anything close to that out of BMW...

Although the E46 M3 does have a small power vs. weight issue(in terms of TQ)..We are fortunate for RPM's(VANOS)..in which the S54 needs to produce HP...Kinda like a comparison between a two stroke and a four stroke...Big, bulky, torquey beast..Vs...a small, in your face screamer...

The CSL may be the perfect car for me...IF they were readily available in the U.S. and were offered with a 6spd manual...Either way...I wouldn't know, being I don't see too many around these parts...

To me, a z06 takes over where BMW stopped, but BMW fills in, where GM forgot...
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Old 08-16-2005, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Until the e46, the 3 series never really needed a v8...But because of the excessive weight that the m3 took on, I'd say that it should have happened with the e46...And not to say that the power to weight was phenomenal in the e36, or e30 4cyl...But the engines were slightly tunable, to get you where you wanted to be...

I'm an idiot, and I cannot get enough HP..I'll only adapt and feed for more..I think the MB SL65 that my old man just purchased, has finally got me where I would want to be...from 60 and onward, the car just will not give up...the torque is so high, and so flat throughout all RPM's, it's ridiculous..But it too takes on some weight, and has a slight issue with traction...But now were talking $200k and twin turbo'd V12...I'd guess you'd have to turn to Williams to get anything close to that out of BMW...

Although the E46 M3 does have a small power vs. weight issue(in terms of TQ)..We are fortunate for RPM's(VANOS)..in which the S54 needs to produce HP...Kinda like a comparison between a two stroke and a four stroke...Big, bulky, torquey beast..Vs...a small, in your face screamer...

The CSL may be the perfect car for me...IF they were readily available in the U.S. and were offered with a 6spd manual...Either way...I wouldn't know, being I don't see too many around these parts...

To me, a z06 takes over where BMW stopped, but BMW fills in, where GM forgot...
It's just too bad that BMW won't outsource a nice SBC for the M3.
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  #21  
Old 08-16-2005, 08:32 AM
dawgbone dawgbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
It's just too bad that BMW won't outsource a nice SBC for the M3.
I'm not too good with all of these acronyms...SBC in terms of:

Mercedes= a wierd braking controller/system(SL-SLR)
forced induction= a wierd boost controller
my best guess is=short/small block conversion

If you're talking about the later...then I would completely agree..make it a lightweight v8 conversion...in fact, I think I read about one, using the M5 diff...
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  #22  
Old 08-16-2005, 08:33 AM
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Small Block Chevy.
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  #23  
Old 08-16-2005, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Small Block Chevy.
If they could only build a car other than the Vette which is truly worthy of that engine.
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Old 08-16-2005, 09:40 AM
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Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster.
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Old 08-16-2005, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster.
When you have to compete with Corvettes and Vipers in a 3400lbs. car, the M3 engine is BADLY overmatched.
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