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  #1  
Old 10-09-2005, 06:59 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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BMW forgot to tell us

I am a worker in the BMW Transplant in Spartanburg, SC. We have been trying to organize a union at BMW but have been unsuccessful due to BMW's offensive posture against us. We have seen all the tricks of union avoidance and BMW even has an in house member of Human Resources named Paul Lindemann who is a lawyer that BMW hired in 5 years ago from the Greenville branch of Jackson and Lewis, one of the nations top firms.
What is interesting is in April The BMW Group represented by DR. Helmut Panke signed a historic agreement in Germany stating BMW would not intimidate us about union activity and they would inform us of this agreement. Instead BMW has not said a word. The UAW is in discussions with IG Metall about this agreement but nothing has been finalized. This agreement covers all BMW facilities worldwide outside Germany for health and safety standards and allows for workers to freely exercise our rights; this is also is in relation to the U.N. ILO agreements of which BMW is part of. BMW signed this agreement with the International Metal Workers Foundation and it's workers on the BMW works council in Geneva Switzerland.
More details are available at:
http://www.imfmetal.org/main/index.cfm?n=47&l=2&c=7786
http://www.imfmetal.org/main/index.cfm?n=47&l=2&c=11446

And here is BMW's side of things:

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....ome/home.shtml


We are asking for your support as you are the great customers. Union Avoidance is actually illegal in the U.S. and a direct violation of the National Labor Relations Act. All German workers are allowed the fair chance to join a union if they want and the German workers are asking BMW to allow us to get the same chance. We are the workers. We are just asking for fair treatment and for the company to do what it said. Thank you.

You can feel free to write the plant as it will help us to gain a fair chance.

BMW Manufacturing Co.
P.O. Box 11000
Spartanburg, SC 29304-4100

and thier website is at www.bmwusfactory.com
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:04 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Hello and Welcome to the Bimmerfest.

Please do not post the same message across the forums.

I'll leave this one here, please note that all other messages will be deleted.

Thanks for your understanding.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:13 AM
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xspeedy xspeedy is offline
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You'll get no support from me. Unions are nothing but large scale blackmail organizations that have led, in part, to the downfall of the US auto industry. US manufacturing has just about completely died off because of unions. US companies can't compete in a global economy when we pay people that spin nuts the same as doctors and lawyers.

If you don't like the conditions at BMWUSA, then go work for Ford. If you don't like Ford, go work for GM. If you don't like it there, then find a new career.
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  #4  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:15 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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I thank you for allowing us to post.

As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only 5 years. We love building the products you drive, and ask you please treat us with respect enough to understand why we have come to this decision. We are not asking for you to do any more than ask the company to obey the law and do what they said. Unions are all we have got left to go to. Please respect us.


Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.

Our medical plans have been changed continously.

Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.

We have lost all of our overtime benefits.

We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.

We are made to work off the clock by putting on work gear that is supposed to be paid time. Some workers are deprived of more.

Over 1500 workers no longer work for BMW. Many are injured permanently. Some people have got 3 rotor cuff surgeries and they get put in jobs that are worse on them. Probably thousands have carpel tunnel syndrome.

We can go on, BMW is a great company and we need to be able to work with this company to benefit us all and improve working conditions. I want nothing more than to see the laws and agreements be respected.

Last edited by BMW Employee; 10-09-2005 at 07:30 AM.
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:21 AM
markseven markseven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xspeedy
You'll get no support from me. Unions are nothing but large scale blackmail organizations that have led, in part, to the downfall of the US auto industry. US manufacturing has just about completely died off because of unions. US companies can't compete in a global economy when we pay people that spin nuts the same as doctors and lawyers.

If you don't like the conditions at BMWUSA, then go work for Ford. If you don't like Ford, go work for GM. If you don't like it there, then find a new career.


-Mark
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  #6  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:27 AM
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What, In Your Opinion, would any union do for You, your fellow workers, the cars you produce, or for We the consumer. ?!
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:32 AM
BayAreaBMWFan BayAreaBMWFan is offline
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Before I send of the letter I have the following questions for you:

What is currently wrong with the BMW plant that unions are needed?
Are there violations of safety norms?
- Is the accident rate higher than other US plants of unionized companies or other BMW plants?

Is the pay too far below the market rate for a similar skill and work load jobs in Spartangurg area?

As another poster noted, a part of the reason the US Auto majors are in the pits are the fat UAW contracts. Delphi filed for bankruptcy last week (though in the US only). I need to understand why Unions are needed in 2005 with the amount of legal protection already in place to defend worker's rights and safety. I am employed in a sector where there are no unions and I do not see the need for one with all the laws we have here protecting me against any wrongdoing by my employers.
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  #8  
Old 10-09-2005, 07:39 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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As far as for the consumer, it would allow us to focus on items that are consumer related. In every business things get cut. BMW has the most sucess in the auto industry. Unions have had no negative effect on your products, only made them better. Almost every BMW is union made. With a collective voice, we can better voice concern for the products we make and then have the ability to voice those concerns without retaliation. Right now each sector of the plant is ran differently and it is not as focused on the consumer. Some sectors are striving and others are lagging. We will not be intimidated for concern on our processes and how well we adhere to them if we can report violations of good practice by reporting bad decisions.

We want to make these products only better and everyone is proud of that. We are as aware of the long term because it effects us as well as the consumer.
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:01 AM
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xspeedy xspeedy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.
I have a somewhat white collar job. I don't get a pension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
Our medical plans have been changed continously.
So have mine. Get used to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.
So, take an hour and write a will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
We have lost all of our overtime benefits.
I don't get any overtime, but often work sixty hour weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.
Big deal. I have co-pays no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
We are made to work off the clock by putting on work gear that is supposed to be paid time. Some workers are deprived of more.
I'm made to work off the clock all the time because I'm salaried.

Last edited by xspeedy; 10-09-2005 at 08:04 AM.
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  #10  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:01 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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Thank you for considering writing the letter. South Carolina has very little worker protections in place. This has been ongoing for a long time and is not BMW's fault. It is a right to work state and in a nutshell any company can fire you for anything they want and then you go to the unemployment office and .....you are not entitled to unemployment because S.C. is a right to work state. We have no rights like other states.

We cannot change this, but we can work out our disputes with our employer on a good level. We know all about other companies and how things played out.

Our primary objectives are:

Negotiating pay and benefits that are concurrent with other U.S. Auto companies. It will still give a great wage advantage to build in S.C. for BMW. This is the most profitable year and our plant is the Cash Cow. Our plant is getting everything cut while European operations are not getting it as bad. It is one thing to get a cheaper supplier of office supplies but cutting workers family income and benefits is not the solution. None of these workers make a doctors or lawyers salary. We are not poorly educated, many of us have professional degrees.

Establish a grievance procedure so you don't risk termination for going to human resources and trying to solve problems.

Ensure good quality practices are in place. We need to get more workers involved in quality and better training to understand what they are doing and why it is necessary. Workers have lapse in understanding what things are done and why. It must improve as we hold people's lives in our hands, understanding how critical things are and why they are done will lead to a more satisfactory job.

Reduce the associate risk of injury by reducing injuries. Right now BMW's solution is taking all the people they crippled and putting them out on disability. If they cannot re-assign them they will terminate their employment and settle. The end result is severly disabled workers. We need to make sure tooling is installed properly and not out of manufacturer recomendations like it has been. Workers get injured and if you look at the UAW website under health and safety at www.uaw.org it lists correct ways to reduce injury. BMW ignores these types of recomendations and it shows. We need to be able to have a voice in our health and safety. Our injury rate is horrible. They can tell you it is getting better, but then ask them how many injured workers they slashed to get that result. Nothing has been improved.
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  #11  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:13 AM
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zentenn zentenn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.

Our medical plans have been changed continously.

Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.

We have lost all of our overtime benefits.

We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.
At least you have a pension plan
All medical plans change. Mine has changed 4 times in 5 years.
I suggest you get a will. It's not hard to do.
You mean you used get paid for overtime? How nice
I'd gladly buy RX's at a company pharmacy if I didn't have to pay copays

You will get no help from me
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:15 AM
SUBL1ME SUBL1ME is offline
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I will write a letter to them.
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Last edited by SUBL1ME; 10-09-2005 at 08:20 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:15 AM
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beewang beewang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
I......
Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.

Our medical plans have been changed continously.

Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.

We have lost all of our overtime benefits.

We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.

We are made to work off the clock by putting on work gear that is supposed to be paid time. Some workers are deprived of more.

Over 1500 workers no longer work for BMW. Many are injured permanently. Some people have got 3 rotor cuff surgeries and they get put in jobs that are worse on them. Probably thousands have carpel tunnel syndrome.
.....
Hey Pal, welcome to my world.

You will get no sympathy from me as I work my arse off and never had the luxury of the stuff you mentioned above. And if you learned anything from school, you should know that union is nuthing more than a form of barrier to enter an industry and drive the cost up in a competitive capitalist society, that only benefits a few cry baby employees as your self. Fact is, if you don't want to work for what BMW is paying you, I WILL!!!


Super Moderator, please delete this spam

Last edited by beewang; 10-09-2005 at 08:17 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:15 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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xspeedy

sorry to hear that you have been overworked in many reguards to working in or with management. However I don't expect that you being a manager or white collar will have any love for our struggle.

I have co-pays either way and they get trippled if we use another pharmacy.

Should I just say I hope you are miserable? I WROTE A WILL AND IT DOESN'T HELP IF MY KIDS ARE DEAD AND A ESTATE TRUST IS NOT SET UP BY ANOTHER PARTY IN 60 DAYS. WHAT IF THEY FORGET?

Should I just treat you with contempt?

It is disgusting how our country treats white collar workers. I have not one doubt that it is long overdue to get Federal Standards to protect White Collar workers also. The difference is we have the ability to improve things where I work at. Quitting only makes quitters. I would appreciate it if you could show a little less contempt for blue collar workers. If you want to then we can talk more in private.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:32 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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To the people showing support thank you. I don't walk in any of your shoes and none of us are making light of the other conditions any of you face.

Many things we cannot say because we fear retaliation. I think what is happening in the auto industry is grossly misunderstood and I don't want to debate. There are problems and we will work through ours to deliver you the best for the money. I don't think anyone who is naive enough to say "I'll take your job anyday" would say that for long. If you really want to come in then I'll work right beside you and then you'll see first hand. Follow my original post and get a job and replace one of the workers fired, until maybe you get there too.

It is not about pay and benefits it is about respect. We are more than willing to sacrifice to make better days for the future, we are willing to plan, we want our fair chance to organize that BMW agreed to give us, then we will do what is best for us a company.

Thank you kindly for your support.

May GOD Bless you.
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  #16  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:40 AM
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xspeedy xspeedy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
xspeedy

Should I just treat you with contempt?
Treat me however you want. If you can't address some challenges, you don't have a toothpick to stand on.

Benchmarking the US auto industry is not a fair way to go about figuring out your worth. If union practices continue, there won't be a US auto industry to benchmark. Perhaps you need to examine what US unskilled labor earns. I believe starting salary is minimum wage.



---

Last edited by xspeedy; 10-09-2005 at 08:54 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:44 AM
e90fanatic e90fanatic is offline
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you do not have my support because all unions are problems for companies and eventually causing them to fail. Driving up costs and resistence to improvements. I don't like unions at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Employee
I am a worker in the BMW Transplant in Spartanburg, SC. We have been trying to organize a union at BMW but have been unsuccessful due to BMW's offensive posture against us. We have seen all the tricks of union avoidance and BMW even has an in house member of Human Resources named Paul Lindemann who is a lawyer that BMW hired in 5 years ago from the Greenville branch of Jackson and Lewis, one of the nations top firms.
What is interesting is in April The BMW Group represented by DR. Helmut Panke signed a historic agreement in Germany stating BMW would not intimidate us about union activity and they would inform us of this agreement. Instead BMW has not said a word. The UAW is in discussions with IG Metall about this agreement but nothing has been finalized. This agreement covers all BMW facilities worldwide outside Germany for health and safety standards and allows for workers to freely exercise our rights; this is also is in relation to the U.N. ILO agreements of which BMW is part of. BMW signed this agreement with the International Metal Workers Foundation and it's workers on the BMW works council in Geneva Switzerland.
More details are available at:
http://www.imfmetal.org/main/index.cfm?n=47&l=2&c=7786
http://www.imfmetal.org/main/index.cfm?n=47&l=2&c=11446

And here is BMW's side of things:

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....ome/home.shtml


We are asking for your support as you are the great customers. Union Avoidance is actually illegal in the U.S. and a direct violation of the National Labor Relations Act. All German workers are allowed the fair chance to join a union if they want and the German workers are asking BMW to allow us to get the same chance. We are the workers. We are just asking for fair treatment and for the company to do what it said. Thank you.

You can feel free to write the plant as it will help us to gain a fair chance.

BMW Manufacturing Co.
P.O. Box 11000
Spartanburg, SC 29304-4100

and thier website is at www.bmwusfactory.com
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:48 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
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BMW Employee-

Many of us in the US, across all industries, share a lot of these problems. I agree, its a disgusting state of affairs. I"m really not sure what the solution is, though. I think a union could probably solve a lot of your problems in the short term. BUt, over time, as the union gains strength its very likey to lead to more and more demands that will eventually cripple the company (look at the airlines or the big 3). HTat being said, it does seem as though BMW Germany has managed just fine with a unionized work force. Out of your complaints, I'm most concerned about the safety issues. Can you and your associates try and get the appropriate government agency to investigate?

Also, do you know how BMW's plants compare with the other non-union auto plants in the US (Honda, Toyota, etc?). If not, it might pay to do some investigation. I can't recall ever seeing similar complaints from other non-union plants, so there might be something truly bad going on in Spartanburg.

Keep using the power of the internet! Try and get some newspapers to do stories about working conditions at BMW. A company like BMW does not like negative publicitiy. And, a BMW purchase is an emotional one. Buyers don't want it to be "tainted" by negative imagery. So, you might have more power than you think. At the same time, because its an emotional purchase, you're likely to get a lot of negative emotional responses to your complaints-- buyers just don't want to hear anything bad. Personally, I prefer to buy products that were produced by a happy and healthy work force. If nothing else, I think the products tend to be superior.
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:51 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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I don't think that a message that is discussing unions can be considered as a spam. I am hoping that it will be a discussion with appropriate tone without getting personal and name calling.
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:58 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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Fair enough Xspeedy or anyone who calls. You can feel however you want.

What do you call unskilled labor? Do you want to drive a Ultimate Driving Machine built with unskilled labor? Take the family on a picnic and the car does what? How smart is that?

How would you recommend making the changes since when we challenge management we get wrote up or fired? Give a reasonable solution, not nonsense.

How would you handle OSHA violations? Keeping in mind that OSHA is the minimal standard in the U.S. and is not enforced because it expects voluntary compliance?

How would you take on a powerhouse?

Don't say lawyer --that doesn't get far for many.

If you were the person that just got the rotor cuff in your shoulder ripped and operated on and then it happened again because you were given a worse job then what would you do?

We've tried other methods. BMW is in it's most profitable year ever and even when they loose 30% of the value on every car brought in the U.S. they excel because of us.

If you hate Union made then Don't buy Eurpoean it's all union made. They have higher cost than U.S. car production. The difference is the German government doesn't take all the lies from corporations that the U.S. does.

And just for more information all German Corporations have the company with 50% of it's supervisory board position seats held by union members, including BMW.
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2005, 09:00 AM
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01silber 01silber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
I don't think that a message that is discussing unions can be considered as a spam. I am hoping that it will be a discussion with appropriate tone without getting personal and name calling.
agreed, this is the bmw community, which should easily include employees of bmw
sorry to hear about the problems, I wish i was more knowlegable in your problems
I saw the pharmacy at the plant when i was there for homecomming, I would have thought that would have been a good thing being that close to work
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2005, 09:02 AM
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gbelton gbelton is offline
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Thumbs up Well Said...

Hello My Friends:

I am glad to hear a fellow New Yorker make sense of things from this thread.

I was onced told, "Never cast judgement until you have walked in another mans shoes!" Try it sometimes. You might not like what you experience.

Good luck BMW Employee.

-GMAN

Quote:
Originally Posted by robg
BMW Employee-

Many of us in the US, across all industries, share a lot of these problems. I agree, its a disgusting state of affairs. I"m really not sure what the solution is, though. I think a union could probably solve a lot of your problems in the short term. BUt, over time, as the union gains strength its very likey to lead to more and more demands that will eventually cripple the company (look at the airlines or the big 3). HTat being said, it does seem as though BMW Germany has managed just fine with a unionized work force. Out of your complaints, I'm most concerned about the safety issues. Can you and your associates try and get the appropriate government agency to investigate?

Also, do you know how BMW's plants compare with the other non-union auto plants in the US (Honda, Toyota, etc?). If not, it might pay to do some investigation. I can't recall ever seeing similar complaints from other non-union plants, so there might be something truly bad going on in Spartanburg.

Keep using the power of the internet! Try and get some newspapers to do stories about working conditions at BMW. A company like BMW does not like negative publicitiy. And, a BMW purchase is an emotional one. Buyers don't want it to be "tainted" by negative imagery. So, you might have more power than you think. At the same time, because its an emotional purchase, you're likely to get a lot of negative emotional responses to your complaints-- buyers just don't want to hear anything bad. Personally, I prefer to buy products that were produced by a happy and healthy work force. If nothing else, I think the products tend to be superior.
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Last edited by gbelton; 10-09-2005 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Changed Worker to Employee
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2005, 09:11 AM
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car_for_mom car_for_mom is offline
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BMW Employee,

I am not unsympathetic to your situation; however, I wax ambivalent about unions and unionization.

Yes, all things being equal, employers will exploit, abuse and mistreat workers if (a) they can easily get away with it and (b) it adds significantly to the bottom line. An employer must have an incentive to treat workers fairly: additional business, desire to avoid negative publicity, stockholder pressure, etc.

Unions, unfortunately, have not kept pace with the times: the tactics and strategies used in coal mines, shop floors, railroads, etc don't translate well to a service-based economy where many workers are also stockholders of the companies they work for.

At one time, unions were the front-line defense against horrible working conditions and abusive treatment - I'm not so sure that is the case anymore. It seems to me that General Motors, insert-name-of-airline-here, Ford, etc are being hampered more than helped by union demands.

Some unions, such as the SEIU, which represents janitors and targets the large immigrant population among them, are seeing success. However, unions have been largely unsuccessful in penetrating Information Technology (the field that I work in) and other high-wage, high-technology jobs.

Perhaps you and your fellow workers should also consider an alternative strategy such as pooling your resources to acquire enough stock in order to have a major voice at the stockholders' meeting?
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  #24  
Old 10-09-2005, 09:28 AM
BMW Employee BMW Employee is offline
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I can sense that most people are concerned. I am not the union defense committe. Unions have their fair share of faults as does my church. I appreciate everyones comments on make a better wiser union and use good judgement after you have one, you are right to always use good judgement.

Thanks Alpina for allowing free speach.

We've done our homework. That's why I said I really don't think people understand the U.S. auto industry.

Hyundai -South Korean union made U.S. new plant non-union

KIA - Korean Union Made

BMW Group - European, U.K. and South African union made

VW- all operations are union except Mexico

Mitsubishi - 100% union made worldwide

Honda - Japanese have union, in the U.S. they violate worker rights including the right to organize.

Toyota - Japanese have unions and 1 Nummi plant that is a Joint Venture with GM. Other U.S. operations are non-union because they are silently fighting the right to organize.

Nissan- all operations outside the U.S. are union and it's 2 U.S. plants are non-union and they publically fight workers and the right to organize.

Ford Motor Company - 100% union and is now restructuring because many of it's non-union suppliers have cut too many corners and cost many recalls so Ford is re-doing the supplier list and demands that workers be respected and allowed to organize.

Renault - 100% union and parent company of Nissan.

Fiat- Union

Daimler Chrysler and Mercedes - 100% union except the plant in Tuscaloosa Alabama which is the highest paying auto plant in the U.S. and does allow workers to peacefully organize and demands the same of it's suppliers.

Gm and all operations - Union in every country, except maybe Mexico.


Honda for example has used prison labor, yes prison labor in it's Marysville, Ohio facility. It also did other things. UAW Region 2A fought and pressed them hard until they gave it up. It has the worst record in the U.S. Auto industry and it is getting 3rd world. Here is an excerpt from the UAWHonda worker website, OSHA had this thrown in their lap publically and they did nothing.

http://www.uawhonda.com/HONDA%20WORK...NISTRATION.pdf


As an example, the UAW said that the Statistics of non-union auto making has gotten so bad that there are 15 injuries in non-union U.S. plants for every 1 UAW plant.


The only thing the UAW has not done is publically slammed the foreign companies for the conditions under which they work. BMW is not the worst, Honda is. BMW can get much better. They can tell us we will not be harassed and demand equal and fair treatment which is the U.S. law but also the agreement they signed and the German workers they would enforce. It's only been 6 months.


The biggest hurdle in manufacturing in the U.S. is employers are faced with a high cost of healthcare. AT GM and Ford it is the crippling issue and one that has been keeping millions of workers alive in retirement and out of nursing homes. Other companies get subsidies for this in their homes and the US makes it Employer-worker.

AT BMW two years ago we had a healthcare tab that was called high by our management. Now our managers are as mad as we are because they see through the bottom line. Our healthcare tab is about 25% of GM and Fords Per car. It is not even high in the U.S. Auto Industry and it was told to us to expect major cuts in 2007. Now I have no problem paying part, but can they justify what they are taking from us? We build an X5 for nearly $15,000 and then Germany marks it up tremendously. Imagine the profits.

The caution on making flexibility the priority is true. We are BMW's most Flexible plant except Leipzig, which we will be more flexible soon. We appreciate your concern and can tell you we have exhausted our options. We can't afford to go to Germany and confront shareholders with the news that we are being done wrong because they wanted us to get a union if we wanted one and corporate management has done different.

The pharmacy is okay if you are able to go when it's open or don't have to drive 50 miles or more to get there. It's not open at night or on weekends except a few hours on Saturday. If you have an emergency and need to get 3 filled somewhere at a normal pharmacy then you may end up paying a few hundred dollars more if is not open.



We can iron out any issues if BMW would just respect the agreement they signed and allow us to organize and improve our conditions.

Last edited by BMW Employee; 10-09-2005 at 09:52 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-09-2005, 10:09 AM
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ObD ObD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
I don't think that a message that is discussing unions can be considered as a spam. I am hoping that it will be a discussion with appropriate tone without getting personal and name calling.
It ought to be moved to the PolySci forum.
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