Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > The Best of Bimmerfest! > Dealer Feedback / Vehicle Problems

Dealer Feedback / Vehicle Problems
Have you had an exceptionally great experience with a particular BMW Center? Have you had a bad experience at your BMW Center? Frustrated by problems or defects with your vehicle? Post your stories or comments here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:06 AM
bimmer7's Avatar
bimmer7 bimmer7 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,080
Mein Auto: M3 Cab, 760Li, '08 LX570
Exclamation BMW 750iL

I am a proud owner of a Jet Black BMW 750iL - E38 with about 40K, and it has always been dealer serviced @ BMW, ever since it was bought. I have run into one MAJOR issue with the car over time since I bought it. . . I have started to notice that the windows on the car have started to delaminate. This puzzled me from the first day it happened.

I tried looking closely and observing what actually is happening and how these sort of bubbles have started to appear in my window. Apparently, there is a thin factory tint film that runs between the double pane glass in all four windows. This security glass is only standard on the 750's in the E38 models. Now my concern is to get this fixed.

So naturally like anytime I have a problem I take it to my local BMW dealer and the SRVC Rep said that there is nothing that can be done about this. This a manufacturer's defect you will have to purchase new glass. . .which is ridiculously expensive! and I was like why should I be responsible for this? I didnot intentionally damage my windows. . . and I havent gotten any aftermarket upgrades to my windows for instance tints etc. or any other modifications for that matter to my car.

So is it fair I have to bear the cost of replacing these windows knowing that I will be spending thousands and thousands of dollars on something that might get defective again after replacement.

I am located in Toronto, Canada and I guess BMW Canada would be the governing body here for BMW dealerships.

PLease help me out here by giving me some hope and advice as to what my next step should be?

My car still has the 8 year / 130K Limited Control Devices Factory Warranty but all other warranties are expired, just for the record.

Thanks
__________________

2008 M3 Cab -- Alpine White, Blk Novillo
2005 760Li Individual -- Azurite Blk, Platinum Merino, ED
2002 745Li -- Sold
2000 750iL -- Sold
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 10-11-2005, 05:52 AM
tierfreund's Avatar
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Germany
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 860
Mein Auto: E90 330i
Youīre out of warranty. Youīll have to live with the defect or pay for it to be fixed.

Thatīs life. If you want trouble free, full warranty driving and your budget is limited youīll have to settle for a smaller, cheaper, but new an warranted car.

Iīm allways amazed at how people will buy an old luxo barge (or buy it new and keep it long) and expect the manufacturer to pay for all repair just because "it shouldnīt have gone wrong, I didnīt do anything wrong". If there were no financial risk in those older motors, they wouldnīt be so cheap to buy.
__________________
No, NOT that kind of Tierfreund...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:19 AM
BayAreaBMWFan BayAreaBMWFan is offline
Back in California
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,251
Mein Auto: '12 328 Vert; '09 Odyssey
tierfrund, this is a $100K car. The glass peeling off in layers is not regular wear and tear. It is a manufacturing defect. There are not that many of these cars built. If BMW was concerned about its Brand Equity it needs to take care of these things. I know another person who had the same problem. Luckily his car was CPO. BMW is playing a risky game by not standing by defects in areas of the car, long perfected by others (radiators, window regulators etc.). Thanks to VW, Geman cars are anyway getting the tag of unreliable. BMW would be foolish to fall into that league by not honoring a few such claims.
__________________
2012 328Ci Black/Black ZPP
2011 528 Black/Black Retired ZPP ZP2 BMW Apps
2005 330Ci SparkGraphite/Gray Retired ZHP, Step, Nav, Xenon, Heated Seats, PDC
2007 X3 3.0si AlpiWhite/Tobacco ED Retired Step, ZSP, ZPP, ZCW, PDC, Nav, Xenon, Privacy Glass, Servotronic, Cargo Net
2002 745Li Slate Green Metallic/Beige Retired; Perfect baby-hauler
2006 525 TiAg/Black Retired
2004 3.0 Z4 Black/Black/Black SMG Retired
2003 525iA TiAg/Gray Retired;King of all Bimmers, the E39
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:38 AM
ademitt ademitt is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Calgary, AB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,408
Mein Auto: F10 MSport
Try contacting BMW Customer Service in Whitby. Given that the 750 is the top of the line, perhaps Whitby would be more understanding. I think at times the field reps tend to be inflexible and do not understand the concept of working with a loyal customer.
__________________
2014 F31 Estoril Blue, MSport Line, M Performance, Premium, Executive, and Rear Comfort packages
2011 E90 328 xdrive - Space Grey on Saddle, Executive Package, Premium Package

22 Retired and thoroughly enjoyed Bimmers
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-11-2005, 09:31 AM
tierfreund's Avatar
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Germany
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 860
Mein Auto: E90 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaBMWFan
tierfrund, this is a $100K car. The glass peeling off in layers is not regular wear and tear. It is a manufacturing defect. There are not that many of these cars built. If BMW was concerned about its Brand Equity it needs to take care of these things. I know another person who had the same problem. Luckily his car was CPO. BMW is playing a risky game by not standing by defects in areas of the car, long perfected by others (radiators, window regulators etc.). Thanks to VW, Geman cars are anyway getting the tag of unreliable. BMW would be foolish to fall into that league by not honoring a few such claims.
I know the car is 100k. And I agree itīs a manufacturing defect, not wear and tear. And yet, itīs also an old car out of warranty. And the problem here lies inthe double glasing, standard on the 750 in that model. It was one of the first cars to incorporate such glasing (better noise insulation and climate control), hence it was edgy technology. Far from the daily items (radiators, window regulators etc.) that you mentioned.

Question is: When does the manufacturer stop beeing liable (gross misconduct and severe safty problems aside)?
At what age of the vehicle does a problem become the owners problem instead of the manufacturers? Or do we really expect to only pay for wear and tear items independent of age of the car?
Certainly manufacturers could offer that kind of service. But at what cost? New car costs would either have to be dramatically lifted or cars would have to be built to much higher quality standards than currently. In any case, BMW or any other manuf. would have to price himself right out of the market.
Itīs just not feasible.

And the price of the vehicle when new is not an arguement. An e38 750 can be picked up for very little money today and with a reason. So many things can go wrong and are so expensive to fix, this has to be compensated by low value.
If the manufacturer had to stand in for an idefinite time on all things that go wrong, heīd simply go broke.
So where is the edge of reasonability? 3 years, 5 years, 10 ?

Just for contrast: In Europe you get a 2 year warranty on BMW, Merc, Audi, VW and all others. Only Lexus, Jaguar and the japanes eand korean imports get 3 years. After that, if something goes wrong and you have a full dealer service history, some manufacturers may share part of the costs for major mishaps on low mileage cars.
Thatīs it.

Letīs face it. A full insurance attitude requires a (financial) premium.
Iīd rather have competitive new car prices and handle the risk myself by prudent choosing (i.e. a newer but smaller/cheaper car)

Toodles....
__________________
No, NOT that kind of Tierfreund...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-12-2005, 12:06 AM
bimmer7's Avatar
bimmer7 bimmer7 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,080
Mein Auto: M3 Cab, 760Li, '08 LX570
Talking 750 Double Pane Glass Windows

Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
I know the car is 100k. And I agree itīs a manufacturing defect, not wear and tear. And yet, itīs also an old car out of warranty. And the problem here lies inthe double glasing, standard on the 750 in that model. It was one of the first cars to incorporate such glasing (better noise insulation and climate control), hence it was edgy technology. Far from the daily items (radiators, window regulators etc.) that you mentioned.

Question is: When does the manufacturer stop beeing liable (gross misconduct and severe safty problems aside)?
At what age of the vehicle does a problem become the owners problem instead of the manufacturers? Or do we really expect to only pay for wear and tear items independent of age of the car?
Certainly manufacturers could offer that kind of service. But at what cost? New car costs would either have to be dramatically lifted or cars would have to be built to much higher quality standards than currently. In any case, BMW or any other manuf. would have to price himself right out of the market.
Itīs just not feasible.

And the price of the vehicle when new is not an arguement. An e38 750 can be picked up for very little money today and with a reason. So many things can go wrong and are so expensive to fix, this has to be compensated by low value.
If the manufacturer had to stand in for an idefinite time on all things that go wrong, heīd simply go broke.
So where is the edge of reasonability? 3 years, 5 years, 10 ?

Just for contrast: In Europe you get a 2 year warranty on BMW, Merc, Audi, VW and all others. Only Lexus, Jaguar and the japanes eand korean imports get 3 years. After that, if something goes wrong and you have a full dealer service history, some manufacturers may share part of the costs for major mishaps on low mileage cars.
Thatīs it.

Letīs face it. A full insurance attitude requires a (financial) premium.
Iīd rather have competitive new car prices and handle the risk myself by prudent choosing (i.e. a newer but smaller/cheaper car)

Toodles....
Listen I agree with the others and also with what you said tierfreund somewhat. . .

Just for the record my car is a 1998 750iL, and has 40,000 miles or 65,000KM (IMO thats very low mileage less than 5K Miles every year) I've had the car with every service done at my local dealer since day 1 (excellent service history). I still have the specific control limited warranty that expires next year in may! 130k/8years.

Also you say you can pick up 750's cheap for sure you can. . .maybe 95,95, 97 or even 98's with high mileage well in the 80's-100'sK Miles range. Thats true for any used car with high mileage and model year.

Your car brand new is worth close to my car's retail value! SO I mean Dont even argue with me there about that. . . And the 3 series from 98 are worth peanuts today so plz dont go down that road again you cannnot in anyway make a fair comparison between a 3 series and a 7 series . . I rest my case

If I wanted I could I have bought the new E65/66 easily, I am getting good trade-in value for my car but would I.....? I didnt because I like the E38 look better. . . now the new 750Li (after facelift) is starting to sink on me and might be a consideration

Plus jus on the side. . .BMW NA did compensate the owners for the pixel displays going out in all 5 series and 7 series models from 95-2003, which was replaced free of charge with only a labor charge. They accepted it as a manufacturer's defect.

Check this link if you dont believe me:

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/52513


I am prepared to pay for part of the cost but yet jus do not know how to go abouts it. . .whom I should be contacting to exercise this option.

ADEMITT,

You were referring to BMW Whitby? which is BMW Experience Centre is that the dealership?

Any other feedback would be appreciated guys. . .

thanks
__________________

2008 M3 Cab -- Alpine White, Blk Novillo
2005 760Li Individual -- Azurite Blk, Platinum Merino, ED
2002 745Li -- Sold
2000 750iL -- Sold
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-12-2005, 12:22 AM
tierfreund's Avatar
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Germany
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 860
Mein Auto: E90 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer7
Your car brand new is worth close to my car's retail value! SO I mean Dont even argue with me there about that. . . And the 3 series from 98 are worth peanuts today so plz dont go down that road again you cannnot in anyway make a fair comparison between a 3 series and a 7 series . . I rest my case

If I wanted I could I have bought the new E65/66 easily, I am getting good trade-in value for my car but would I.....? I didnt because I like the E38 look better. . . now the new 750Li (after facelift) is starting to sink on me and might be a consideration
The last thing I ever wanted to get into is a bragging contest. I see no point in such a thing (besides, you have no idea what my other cars are )

Thatīs not what I was after. All Iīm trying to say is that when a car is as far from beeing new as yours (although the low mileage and fsh would probably go some way into convincing BMW to at least share the cost), resposibility of the manufacturer should fade. I dislike the mentality of some especially in the US to hold the manufacturer responsible for just about everything from spoilt coffee to the wrong cupholders. (Iīm going over the edge here on purpose to make a point. Your case is far more substantial)
But please consider: The display exchange programm for pixel errors would have been far less costly (per car) than changing the glasing on yours.

The hair on the back of my neck stands up when I read posts (In the E90 forum) like: The dealer drilled holes in my bumper for the front plates although I (illegally) donīt want a front plate. Iīll have him reorder a new car for me. I wonīt let them change the bumper, itīll never be the same as fresh from the factory.

Thatīs just frivolent. Your case is just (IMHO) a little far fetched.

Toodles.....

P.S. Iīd still stay away from the new 750 even after the facelift. In that segment Iīm an Audi A8 kind of guy.
__________________
No, NOT that kind of Tierfreund...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-12-2005, 06:21 AM
ademitt ademitt is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Calgary, AB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,408
Mein Auto: F10 MSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer7
ADEMITT,

You were referring to BMW Whitby? which is BMW Experience Centre is that the dealership?

Any other feedback would be appreciated guys. . .

thanks
I was referring to BMW Canada whose headquarters are in Whitby. I would speak to someone in customer service and explain the situation. You may find some assistance within the organization.

I agree with Tierfrieund that the full cost should not be a warranty item given the age of the vehicle. As it appears to be a product defect, I would make the pitch that the cost be shared by you and BMW, they supply the glass and you pay for the labour.

I would also check to see if there is a history of similar problems with the 750's. Perhaps there is a SB (Service Bulletin) within BMW identifying this problem and there may already be a policy in place for dealing with the replacement of the glass.
__________________
2014 F31 Estoril Blue, MSport Line, M Performance, Premium, Executive, and Rear Comfort packages
2011 E90 328 xdrive - Space Grey on Saddle, Executive Package, Premium Package

22 Retired and thoroughly enjoyed Bimmers
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-12-2005, 10:29 PM
bimmer7's Avatar
bimmer7 bimmer7 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,080
Mein Auto: M3 Cab, 760Li, '08 LX570
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by ademitt
I was referring to BMW Canada whose headquarters are in Whitby. I would speak to someone in customer service and explain the situation. You may find some assistance within the organization.

I agree with Tierfrieund that the full cost should not be a warranty item given the age of the vehicle. As it appears to be a product defect, I would make the pitch that the cost be shared by you and BMW, they supply the glass and you pay for the labour.

I would also check to see if there is a history of similar problems with the 750's. Perhaps there is a SB (Service Bulletin) within BMW identifying this problem and there may already be a policy in place for dealing with the replacement of the glass.
Thanks for both of your opinions and feedback on my situation and I shall go ahead and contact BMW Canada and explain to them my situation.

Tierfrieund I understand as to what you are saying and hopefully BMW Canada can replace my windows by paying for the parts and me covering the labor. . .hopefully that should be the most reasonable compromise. . .

I will call them tomorrow and explain to them my situation. . .wish me luck guys and thanks again for all your feedback, I will keep you posted on my situation.
__________________

2008 M3 Cab -- Alpine White, Blk Novillo
2005 760Li Individual -- Azurite Blk, Platinum Merino, ED
2002 745Li -- Sold
2000 750iL -- Sold
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 08:44 AM
bimmerrj bimmerrj is offline
Registered User
Location: Unionville, Ontario
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
Mein Auto: 750il
750il Window delamination

Bimmer7, What did BMW Whitby say about your window delamination. Is there a fix to stop the spreading? Im looking at a '99 750il that has this problem on the front windows. About 1" from the top of the window.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-09-2006, 05:41 PM
RobertABQ750 RobertABQ750 is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Mein Auto: 750iL
750iL Delamination

When my 1998 750iL began to bubble, I took it to the dealership - it was still under warranty, they replaced the rear windows. Now the car is not under warranty and all 4 windows have completely delaminated - big old ugly bubbles. I went to the dealership - got a quote to replace - came in just slightly under $5,800 to replace the windows. I dont think so - beautiful black on black with all options including the TV! However, dealership said it was just the way they are and there was nothing that they could do or BMW USA to fix or reimburse me - wasnt expecting them to, but asked. They said it is/was a defect in manufacturing and they learned their lesson with that generation of their "experimental" double glass. I then talked to the sales department to get a trade in quote - it came back at $19,500, but becuase of the windows they would need to drop it down to 13,500 for them to get it ready for resale. The car has 55,000 miles. Of course I declined their offer - there suggestion.......... break all the windows, have the insurance company pay for the fix then bring it back in and we will negotiate a better trade in deal. Yeah, thats the way to go - abuse the insurance industry and pay more in premiums!! What is this the medical profession and health insurance!!??

So, I will keep it another year, drive the hell out of it and go back to my MB S600
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-31-2006, 03:08 AM
bimmer7's Avatar
bimmer7 bimmer7 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,080
Mein Auto: M3 Cab, 760Li, '08 LX570
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertABQ750 View Post
When my 1998 750iL began to bubble, I took it to the dealership - it was still under warranty, they replaced the rear windows. Now the car is not under warranty and all 4 windows have completely delaminated - big old ugly bubbles. I went to the dealership - got a quote to replace - came in just slightly under $5,800 to replace the windows. I dont think so - beautiful black on black with all options including the TV! However, dealership said it was just the way they are and there was nothing that they could do or BMW USA to fix or reimburse me - wasnt expecting them to, but asked. They said it is/was a defect in manufacturing and they learned their lesson with that generation of their "experimental" double glass. I then talked to the sales department to get a trade in quote - it came back at $19,500, but becuase of the windows they would need to drop it down to 13,500 for them to get it ready for resale. The car has 55,000 miles. Of course I declined their offer - there suggestion.......... break all the windows, have the insurance company pay for the fix then bring it back in and we will negotiate a better trade in deal. Yeah, thats the way to go - abuse the insurance industry and pay more in premiums!! What is this the medical profession and health insurance!!??

So, I will keep it another year, drive the hell out of it and go back to my MB S600
Thats a shoccking response by the BMW service ppl
Start making false insurance claims
__________________

2008 M3 Cab -- Alpine White, Blk Novillo
2005 760Li Individual -- Azurite Blk, Platinum Merino, ED
2002 745Li -- Sold
2000 750iL -- Sold
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-31-2006, 03:09 AM
bimmer7's Avatar
bimmer7 bimmer7 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,080
Mein Auto: M3 Cab, 760Li, '08 LX570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerrj View Post
Bimmer7, What did BMW Whitby say about your window delamination. Is there a fix to stop the spreading? Im looking at a '99 750il that has this problem on the front windows. About 1" from the top of the window.
NO

$5K CDN to replace all 4 windows plus labor
__________________

2008 M3 Cab -- Alpine White, Blk Novillo
2005 760Li Individual -- Azurite Blk, Platinum Merino, ED
2002 745Li -- Sold
2000 750iL -- Sold
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-15-2010, 02:47 PM
henaleena henaleena is offline
Registered User
Location: NC, USA
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15
Mein Auto: 2010 750lxi, 2008 335Ci
BMW 750 LXi Individual Composition Boxed Key Chain
I have seen reading and watching YouTube clips about getting a specially made black wooden box with key chain who purchased BMW cars with individual Composition. Is it generally true or particular individuals who purchased specially ordered BMW's with indivivual cimposition got it a an appreciation? If any got it, please post a picture of box and key chain that came with it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-20-2010, 07:14 AM
Elias's Avatar
Elias Elias is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Northern Va
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,524
Mein Auto: 2012 650 Coupe, 323i
Quote:
Originally Posted by henaleena View Post
BMW 750 LXi Individual Composition Boxed Key Chain
I have seen reading and watching YouTube clips about getting a specially made black wooden box with key chain who purchased BMW cars with individual Composition. Is it generally true or particular individuals who purchased specially ordered BMW's with indivivual cimposition got it a an appreciation? If any got it, please post a picture of box and key chain that came with it.
What does this have to do with windows bubbling up on the 750i after the warranty is up five years later! I know your a newbee so I won't go any further, just start a new thread if you really need an answer your question.
__________________

2012, 650i Coupe, Carbon Black, Black Nappa leather, M Sport , CWP,DAP, IAS, 20" Wheels,
BMWCCA Member since 07/2008
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-20-2010, 08:31 AM
henaleena henaleena is offline
Registered User
Location: NC, USA
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15
Mein Auto: 2010 750lxi, 2008 335Ci
I have been a bimmer for the past 8 years; have 4 in the family: 2003 745Li, two 2008 335 conv and a 2010 750LXi individual. Thanks for your so expert opionion!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-20-2010, 09:57 AM
smhoer smhoer is offline
Ready for next ED
Location: Apex, NC
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 279
Mein Auto: 2008 335ic
Quote:
Originally Posted by henaleena View Post
I have been a bimmer for the past 8 years; have 4 in the family: 2003 745Li, two 2008 335 conv and a 2010 750LXi individual. Thanks for your so expert opionion!
He's is questioning your strange choice of reviving a very old thread with a question about a completely different topic. Start a new thread in the 7-Series section and you might get a normal response.
__________________
  • 550i, Black Sapphire, Cinnamon Brown w/Anthracite wood and headliner, Sport, Premium 2, IAS, ZDH, Sport trans, other goodies
  • Retired - ED 2008 - 335i Convert, Space Grey/Coral Red/Grey Poplar, Sport
  • 1984 325e
  • 1980 323i
  • A couple beater 2002tis
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > The Best of Bimmerfest! > Dealer Feedback / Vehicle Problems
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mr Clay Nalley of Nalley BMW comes though on my Flat Tire Refund on 330i Loaner!! Presley348 E60 (2004 - 2010) 1 04-25-2005 11:30 AM
PTG 10th & BMWNA's 30th Anniversary SteveT Motorsports, Racing & Track 0 01-31-2005 06:34 PM
The 2006 Bmw 7 Series tim330i BMW News Articles and Announcements 0 01-27-2005 02:22 PM
BMW Update for S54 Engines BMWNA M Series 2 08-13-2003 05:55 PM
A Hit Parade for BMW? (Must-read BusinessWeek Article) Spiderm0n General BMW 10 09-14-2002 11:18 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms