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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F34 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #51  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:08 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Have you driven a Giulia? Try it just for kicks. It really shines in the steering/suspension department.
Yes the Giulia test drive was pretty good, one thing that stood out was the aligning torque. Having said that, the LCI 328i/330i even with base is pretty good too, except the rear still bounces a bit.

Given the dealer(PZEV)/indy/parts supports, sensibly-optioned 3-series probably is still the way to go when compared to Giulia.
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  #52  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
The engineers that did it for BMW now work for AR.
My guess is that the veteran BMW engineers now are immersed in all things electric and do not pay attention to suspension/steering that much, given the bosses set up bonuses and milestones that way.
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  #53  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:24 PM
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My guess is that the veteran BMW engineers now are immersed in all things electric and do not pay attention to suspension/steering that much, given the bosses set up bonuses and milestones that way.
Or they are happily retired and consulting for Kia and Hyundai as they aspire to build driver's cars.
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  #54  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:26 PM
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Yes the Giulia test drive was pretty good, one thing that stood out was the aligning torque. Having said that, the LCI 328i/330i even with base is pretty good too, except the rear still bounces a bit.

Given the dealer(PZEV)/indy/parts supports, sensibly-optioned 3-series probably is still the way to go when compared to Giulia.
If we only consider the way the car drives, then Giulia wins hands down. If we consider total package -- lack of MT, interior/exterior design, risk of reliability, etc. -- then I agree that the decision is not as clear cut.
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  #55  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:25 PM
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I respect how CR tests but I don't use them as a reference when car shopping. I'm not particularly focused on reliability.
Reliability, plus accessibility and serviceability, always require additional engineering expertise and ingenuity, which can justify some of the price premiums of these German cars.

Or the manufacturer is so confident that extended warranty comes standard at no extra cost. E.g. BMWNA provides timing chain warranty for 15-yr/150k-mile on B46, even though accessibility and serviceability of that timing chain are non-existent(engine out)!!!
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  #56  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:28 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
If we only consider the way the car drives, then Giulia wins hands down. If we consider total package -- lack of MT, interior/exterior design, risk of reliability, etc. -- then I agree that the decision is not as clear cut.
Is F30 MT with flat N20/N26 power band any good?

In terms of feel, the new turbo engines with flat power band are nowhere close to previous NA engines with surging power band, right?
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  #57  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:34 PM
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Is F30 MT with flat N20/N26 power band any good?

In terms of feel, the new turbo engines with flat power band are nowhere close to previous NA engines with surging power band, right?
I like the MT and it's the aspect of the car that I enjoy the most (more than the steering, suspension, or turbo 4). The engine does feel a lot different than an NA engine in terms of the way the car pulls, but I don't think that negates the fun of the MT. If I am forced to go auto, I will master the use of paddle shifters. I like being able to pick my own gear instead of having the shift 30 times a minute.
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  #58  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:41 PM
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Is F30 MT with flat N20/N26 power band any good?
I like it! N20 engine is smooth from idle to redline, and the MT gear ratios for the 320i are appropriately chosen.

Admittedly, it's not necessary to rev the N20 high to get the most out of it, thanks to the engine's ample low end torque. But it's still grin inducing to shift close to redline, which is why I do it at least once on every drive.
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  #59  
Old 12-01-2017, 01:46 AM
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I like it! N20 engine is smooth from idle to redline, and the MT gear ratios for the 320i are appropriately chosen.

Admittedly, it's not necessary to rev the N20 high to get the most out of it, thanks to the engine's ample low end torque. But it's still grin inducing to shift close to redline, which is why I do it at least once on every drive.
My N26 is not that smooth above 5krpm, at which the balancing shafts spin at 10krpm.

It is good that the engine HP drops off above 5krpm, or else the balancing shafts can rip through the engine block at 12-14krpm!
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  #60  
Old 12-01-2017, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
That's not the surprising part -- it's that the M240i and M2 which were previously highly praised have dropped off. I think this may be due to their experience with long term testing. Seems to have been replaced by the RS3.
C&D positively gushed with lust and praise over the 2017 M2 and M240i: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...t-cars-feature
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  #61  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:31 AM
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the bmw brand is becoming technology-ridden comfy muscle cars - lots of power, twirling wand and huge key fobs, weight distribution edging towards audi's 55:45, and sporty styling

Don't think that usually wins C&D top 10 for the near-luxury sports sedan category. the other cars on the list are more pure for their driving dynamics. I prefer a 718 over a 440i if i'm not hauling anything. But i'd have to admit, if i wanted comfy, i'd go E class over a 5
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  #62  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by anotheran View Post
the bmw brand is becoming technology-ridden comfy muscle cars - lots of power, twirling wand and huge key fobs, weight distribution edging towards audi's 55:45, and sporty styling

Don't think that usually wins C&D top 10 for the near-luxury sports sedan category. the other cars on the list are more pure for their driving dynamics. I prefer a 718 over a 440i if i'm not hauling anything. But i'd have to admit, if i wanted comfy, i'd go E class over a 5
The reality is this is the industry trend other than Alfa, Cadillac and Jaguar who are all marginal players in the industry. At least for now BMW is still offering MT's in their cars. Only Audi and Cadillac do as well. As far as the weight distribution, not true. At least in the 3 series.
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  #63  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by anotheran View Post
the bmw brand is becoming technology-ridden comfy muscle cars - lots of power, twirling wand and huge key fobs, weight distribution edging towards audi's 55:45, and sporty styling

Don't think that usually wins C&D top 10 for the near-luxury sports sedan category. the other cars on the list are more pure for their driving dynamics. I prefer a 718 over a 440i if i'm not hauling anything. But i'd have to admit, if i wanted comfy, i'd go E class over a 5
This is actually a pretty accurate description. My M240i, while the same size as an E46, is so much more powerful that I still grin like a teenager on hard acceleration. It is almost scary fast at full throttle. And while I really do love my car, it is not as hard-wired to the pavement as the E46 was. It handles quite well and is extremely nimble and very fun to drive, but it also feels more disconnected than the E46.
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  #64  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The reality is this is the industry trend other than Alfa, Cadillac and Jaguar who are all marginal players in the industry. At least for now BMW is still offering MT's in their cars. Only Audi and Cadillac do as well. As far as the weight distribution, not true. At least in the 3 series.
340xi: 52.8 / 47.2, 320i: 50.0 / 50.0 <-- and how many enthusiasts prefer the bigger engine over balance?
M550i: 54.8 / 45.2, 530i: 51.5 / 48.5

Don't think C&D always thinks MT = sporty. Anyways, BMW offer MT on most of their smaller cars but they are slowly switch over to AT like the 4 series GC, 6 series GC, 328d, all their SAVs. Does that make BMW no longer a "sporty" brand?
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  #65  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:07 AM
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C&D positively gushed with lust and praise over the 2017 M2 and M240i: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...t-cars-feature
Look at the long term test for the M2. Many staffers complained of back pain because they found it too stiff.
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  #66  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Look at the long term test for the M2. Many staffers complained of back pain because they found it too stiff.
Here's the link to that long term test:

2017 BMW M2: Opinions on the M2 are solidifying, and our spines might need fusing.
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  #67  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:27 AM
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"2017 BMW M2: Opinions on the M2 are solidifying, and our spines might need fusing."
Wow that conveys the picture pretty well.
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  #68  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:32 AM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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All this gnashing of teeth over Magazine rag lists always amuses me when it happens here.... I am assuming its "just to have conversation", because otherwise who the @!#%!#$ cares what Car & Driver, MotorTrend, or any other magazine says as it relates to whether YOU like the car or not? Either you do, or your dont (unless somehow the car being on a list makes you like driving it more).

If you DONT like the car (meaning how it drives when YOU take the wheel) then does it matter if C&D does? No, right? The reverse should also be true. Does it matter if the car you like is on this or that list? They certainly are not paying your payment on it (unless you work for them, that is.. there could be people here that are paid by C&D etc). So, Drive it and like it, or drive it and dont like it and buy something else. I dont get all the angst, unless its just to "have a conversation" about something.

The car being on (or not being on) a list from an auto mag (or website) does nothing for me for its desirability. Now, something like reliability lists (such as consumer reports) that actually matters a bit more, because it figures into ownership costs. Whether some auto mag writer thinks the car is "fun to drive" I could care less, and find it amusing so many of you seem to care.
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  #69  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:41 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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The car being on (or not being on) a list from an auto mag (or website) does nothing for me for its desirability. Now, something like reliability lists (such as consumer reports) that actually matters a bit more, because it figures into ownership costs. Whether some auto mag writer thinks the car is "fun to drive" I could care less, and find it amusing so many of you seem to care.
The long-term tests from C&D and such actually are useful for hints of ownership experience(including initial reliability).

The "award" lists are useful when merged with ownership/reliability reports.
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  #70  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
I am assuming its "just to have conversation.
That's definitely part of it, as there's always some spirited conversation here at Bimmerfest forums. Automotive awards of any kind are excellent conversation starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The "award" lists are useful when merged with ownership/reliability reports.
+1
Customers and automakers alike take both of these items seriously: Customers (and prospective customers) when it comes to choosing and/or replacing a car, and automakers in terms of improving their products.
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  #71  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:03 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by anotheran View Post
340xi: 52.8 / 47.2, 320i: 50.0 / 50.0 <-- and how many enthusiasts prefer the bigger engine over balance?
M550i: 54.8 / 45.2, 530i: 51.5 / 48.5

Don't think C&D always thinks MT = sporty. Anyways, BMW offer MT on most of their smaller cars but they are slowly switch over to AT like the 4 series GC, 6 series GC, 328d, all their SAVs. Does that make BMW no longer a "sporty" brand?
You mean the magazine with the Save the Manuals campaign?
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  #72  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:07 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
All this gnashing of teeth over Magazine rag lists always amuses me when it happens here.... I am assuming its "just to have conversation", because otherwise who the @!#%!#$ cares what Car & Driver, MotorTrend, or any other magazine says as it relates to whether YOU like the car or not? Either you do, or your dont (unless somehow the car being on a list makes you like driving it more).

If you DONT like the car (meaning how it drives when YOU take the wheel) then does it matter if C&D does? No, right? The reverse should also be true. Does it matter if the car you like is on this or that list? They certainly are not paying your payment on it (unless you work for them, that is.. there could be people here that are paid by C&D etc). So, Drive it and like it, or drive it and dont like it and buy something else. I dont get all the angst, unless its just to "have a conversation" about something.

The car being on (or not being on) a list from an auto mag (or website) does nothing for me for its desirability. Now, something like reliability lists (such as consumer reports) that actually matters a bit more, because it figures into ownership costs. Whether some auto mag writer thinks the car is "fun to drive" I could care less, and find it amusing so many of you seem to care.
I don't make car buying decisions based on the 10 Best list but I do have a similar mindset as C and D for what I want in a car. I drive a GTI now so they seem pretty smart to me .
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  #73  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
All this gnashing of teeth over Magazine rag lists always amuses me when it happens here.... I am assuming its "just to have conversation", because otherwise who the @!#%!#$ cares what Car & Driver, MotorTrend, or any other magazine says as it relates to whether YOU like the car or not? Either you do, or your dont (unless somehow the car being on a list makes you like driving it more).
I've tried a lot of different car mags over the years and settled on C&D as the one that's most in tune with my personal preferences. I do place some weight on their reviews, and their reviews help me decide what's worth test-driving or not.

Now I won't skip testing BMW's just because they're not on the 10 best list, but I will take a closer look at some of the cars that are. I've previously dismissed Audis as numb and uninvolving, but if C&D thinks the RS3 is better than an M240i or M2, then perhaps the RS3 and its siblings are worth the effort for a test drive IMHO. YMMV.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:47 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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I've tried a lot of different car mags over the years and settled on C&D as the one that's most in tune with my personal preferences. I do place some weight on their reviews, and their reviews help me decide what's worth test-driving or not.

Now I won't skip testing BMW's just because they're not on the 10 best list, but I will take a closer look at some of the cars that are. I've previously dismissed Audis as numb and uninvolving, but if C&D thinks the RS3 is better than an M240i or M2, then perhaps the RS3 and its siblings are worth the effort for a test drive IMHO. YMMV.
I can understand that viewpoint totally (but it doesnt involve gnashing of teeth over inclusion or lack of inclusion on the list ). Its a rational point of "hey they like this, so let me take a look at it". Maybe you find out you like it, maybe you find out you dont.

Its Not "OMG BMW is not on this list!" which is what normally happens around here when there is some sort of negative press or other, which is the point I was attempting to make (maybe poorly, I admit).
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  #75  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:47 PM
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I do place some weight on their reviews, and their reviews help me decide what's worth test-driving or not.
Exactly this. Lists, reviews, awards or brickbats do not affect in the slightest my enjoyment of cars I already own. They are useful, collectively, as a filter when it's time to shop.
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