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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #1  
Old 01-06-2006, 02:12 PM
mchengdds mchengdds is offline
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SMG II violent jerking back and forth!

I have search the threads and found that this jerking of the car is due to getting into the oscillation loop of shifting. Does this happen to all SMG II M3's or only certain amounts of them? Are there some methods of reducing or eliminating this occurance? Any personal experience?
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2006, 02:24 PM
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chuck92103 chuck92103 is offline
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The current incarnation of SMG's are a first step by BMW to offer such technology. Until dual-clutches are offered in these units, poor shifting performance will be the reality and only the most experienced SMG drivers can compensate with special pedal girations to overcome the obstacles of these poorly designed transmissions.

Translation = You should have bought a manual transmission.
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2006, 02:42 PM
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doeboy doeboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103
Translation = You should have bought a manual transmission.
If he knew how to drive a stick and modulate the pedal to not have it jerk, then he wouldn't be having the jerking problem on his SMGII transmission... IMO....

I've driven some and have not had the thing jerk around like that.
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  #4  
Old 01-06-2006, 02:45 PM
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chuck92103 chuck92103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doeboy
If he knew how to drive a stick and modulate the pedal to not have it jerk, then he wouldn't be having the jerking problem on his SMGII transmission... IMO....

I've driven some and have not had the thing jerk around like that.
Wrong answer. Manual is manual.

SMG relies on a computer to shift after a button is pressed. One most learn the timing nuances of the computer to master SMG.

With manual, you are in control over every aspect of the shift process.
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2006, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchengdds
I have search the threads and found that this jerking of the car is due to getting into the oscillation loop of shifting. Does this happen to all SMG II M3's or only certain amounts of them? Are there some methods of reducing or eliminating this occurance? Any personal experience?
You'll get better and experience it less with more seat time...in the meantime, when it starts to buck, you can either:

1. let off the gas completely
2. immediately upshift.
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2006, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103
The current incarnation of SMG's are a first step by BMW to offer such technology. Until dual-clutches are offered in these units, poor shifting performance will be the reality and only the most experienced SMG drivers can compensate with special pedal girations to overcome the obstacles of these poorly designed transmissions.
Actually, it is the second incarnation and it shifts very well. My wife and I learned how to properly use SMGII in about 35 seconds and 22 seconds, respectively.
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2006, 03:17 PM
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WILLIA///M WILLIA///M is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp
You'll get better and experience it less with more seat time...in the meantime, when it starts to buck, you can either:

1. let off the gas completely
2. immediately upshift.
Yep. Since you don't have control of the clutch you are left with only throttle control and things like going over a bump which might cause your foot to jerk ever so slightly will sometimes cause the problem. Mine has a tendency to want to do it at a certain intersection on a slight uphill grade making a left turn around once every 2 months or so.
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2006, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103
Wrong answer. Manual is manual.

SMG relies on a computer to shift after a button is pressed. One most learn the timing nuances of the computer to master SMG.

With manual, you are in control over every aspect of the shift process.
I don't entirely agree there... knowing how and why it bucks like that (you can get it to do the same thing in a manual) can help minimize if not prevent it from doing so.

I don't disagree about having to sort of learn the nuances of interacting with its computer though.... It's sort of a mix of both traditional manual technique in regards to accelerator modulation and learning the SMG computer's tendencys...

Again I have not had it buck like that... when I drove SMG cars. Maybe I've just been lucky.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2006, 05:40 PM
plien69 plien69 is offline
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Smoothness with the throttle pedal is the name of the game with SMG.

We can debate endlessly about whether SMG == manual (and we have!), but it is most definitely not an automatic transmission. Don't expect it to behave like one.
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2006, 12:24 AM
Jim in Oregon Jim in Oregon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchengdds
I have search the threads and found that this jerking of the car is due to getting into the oscillation loop of shifting. Does this happen to all SMG II M3's or only certain amounts of them? Are there some methods of reducing or eliminating this occurrence? Any personal experience?

The throttle response of the M3 is the culpret....be sure to turn off the sport button, which makes it worse. If you have any engine software like the Shark or Dinan, it again will be worse. I think that's one of the reasons BMW decided to have the transmission stay in 2nd gear until the car comes to a compete stop...to help stop the oscillations.

With experience, the oscillations will disappear. I have the Shark software and when I let a friend drive the car, he oscillated on every takeoff...experience is the key. Some people suggest resting your foot up against the center tunnel and then rocking/tilting your foot into the gas slowly...it seems to help also.
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  #11  
Old 01-07-2006, 06:02 AM
mchengdds mchengdds is offline
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Thanks for the tips, starting to get use to it some more and enjoying SMG. I was freaked out at first and thought my new car was defective. You would think you spend that much on a car that they would have came up with a software to prevent this. Does anyone know if this happens on the SMG III of the other BMW models?
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  #12  
Old 01-07-2006, 09:20 AM
Robbed666 Robbed666 is offline
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It's all about throttle control. You have to learn it. I can drive my 01 SMG like, a hearse or that every gear change is a kick in the pants. Its different, the lift off on gear change is not so much a foot movement, as a subconcious relaxing of the throttle pedal foot. Those who have mastered it will know what I mean.

Rob
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  #13  
Old 01-07-2006, 09:37 AM
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chuck92103 chuck92103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchengdds
Thanks for the tips, starting to get use to it some more and enjoying SMG. I was freaked out at first and thought my new car was defective. You would think you spend that much on a car that they would have came up with a software to prevent this. Does anyone know if this happens on the SMG III of the other BMW models?
Yes is happens on all BMWs. All variants, SMG I/II/III use the same premise. In the M6, they added a 7th gear, but it is the same technology that really needs to get updated soon. I would hope that BMW has the next generation out for the new M3.

Read this article about the Audi DSG transmission. This is where everyone is heading. Audi's transmission was designed from the ground up as a SMG replacement/competitor. BMW's SMG is a modified manual transmission with a computer controller/hydraulic gearbox. The article is pretty objective and lists shortcomings of DSG as well. BMW could take the best parts of SMG and DSG and build an awesome transmission that could potentially replace manuals and autos altogether.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/0305_audiTT/

Last edited by chuck92103; 01-07-2006 at 09:49 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2006, 10:40 AM
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This has NOTHING to do with shifting. And it can happen with any clutch based system. It is a throttle based driver in the loop occillation. And most times does not occur when shifting at all.

Driver steps on the gas, car moves forward, quickly, and driver moves back in seat, lifting foot from throttle. Driver pushes more to keep accelerating, but by the time the foot moves, the car has slowed and the driver moves forward depressing throttle, combined with foot movement makes too much throttle. Driver lifts foot, but body is moving back due to acceleration and lifts, combined with conscious lift lifts too mcuh, and so on, and so on.

Cure is to lift, or upshift. Basiclaly stop trying to catch up with the car.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2006, 11:19 AM
dawgbone dawgbone is offline
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Very interesting conclusion pinecone...You wouldn't happen to be a psychologist? J/K

I've finally been fortunate enough to drive a buddie's SMG...and now see all of the thought it takes to drive a manulmatic that has two pedals....

I've learned to not make the jerky movement way back when I owned a Jeep...where low range is hard to prevent the jerk...on top of that... probably isn't very good on the drive train...So I hadn't had a problem with the M...and the few times that I have done it..it was easy to counter by just feathering the clutch...so SMG, your only option is to lift...

My truck is this way when going over bumps...and it's an automatic..but has the DBW that's a bit touchy...I've found that if I rest my foot along side of the firewall/floorboard will help...I've done this is in the bimmer...but really was hard for the fact that mine is a 6spd and difficult to modulate clutch/throttle like that...but may help with the SMG

now my foot spends more time with my toe in the brake and heel on the gas..practicing heel /toe rev matched braking...I never realized how easy and fun it is during normal commutes....it's almost addicting
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2006, 08:37 AM
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Actually you have three choices when it happens:

1) Lift

2) Upshift

3) Stand on it

All of them get your away from trying to react to it.

Actually I have studied human factors engineering. I am also an ex-military pilot and in aircraft this is called PIO, which they used to call "pilot induced occillation" but change to "pilot in the loop occillation" since th epilot (or driver) doesn't start it, but they will make it worse. In an airplane you push, pull or left go.
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  #17  
Old 01-20-2006, 09:09 AM
Reedo302 Reedo302 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchengdds
Thanks for the tips, starting to get use to it some more and enjoying SMG. I was freaked out at first and thought my new car was defective. You would think you spend that much on a car that they would have came up with a software to prevent this. Does anyone know if this happens on the SMG III of the other BMW models?
All models coming out for 2007+ being equipped will have SMG III, and the current M5 and M6 have it as well. It's a 7-speed and it's supposedly really smooth according to guy I used to work for who traded his E39 M5 for an E60 M5. The SMG III reduced alot of that jerking and clunkiness. The E90/93 M3 will have that system, as will the new Z4s. The SMG III is considered to be a major improvement over the I and II models.

As far as the jerkiness, you can always turn down the shift level and put it on A1, A2, S1, or S2 instead of on S6 or A5. That's the nice thing about SMG-you can adjust the shifting style to your preferences or mood. When I've driven M3s, I've varied it by how I feel.

Last edited by Reedo302; 01-20-2006 at 09:12 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-21-2006, 01:10 AM
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AGAIN, the jerkiness is NOT caused by the tranny, but by the DRIVER and the drive by wire.
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  #19  
Old 01-23-2006, 08:32 PM
dawgbone dawgbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
AGAIN, the jerkiness is NOT caused by the tranny, but by the DRIVER and the drive by wire.
Don't be so hard on the driver..or DBW.....I see it as BMW's fault....most car manufacturers have the idea of making it easy for the average driver to drive....do you have to have So many hours of trackage to qualify to drive the BMW M....

I agree...you should know what you're driving(SMG-slop)....but I don't like the idea of making us have to drive a manualmatic(M5)...specially when their cars are falling behind..in every aspect...






I see alot of complaining on this forum....pretty dumb...

If you rave so much on the new vette...then trade in, and get one..and join the LS7 forum and do youself a favor and move on....it's somewhat rediculous to listen to...
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  #20  
Old 01-23-2006, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Don't be so hard on the driver..or DBW.....I see it as BMW's fault....most car manufacturers have the idea of making it easy for the average driver to drive....do you have to have So many hours of trackage to qualify to drive the BMW M....

I agree...you should know what you're driving(SMG-slop)....but I don't like the idea of making us have to drive a manualmatic(M5)...specially when their cars are falling behind..in every aspect...






I see alot of complaining on this forum....pretty dumb...

If you rave so much on the new vette...then trade in, and get one..and join the LS7 forum and do youself a favor and move on....it's somewhat rediculous to listen to...

I wish I had seen this thread sooner... though doeboy, jrp, plien69, Robbed666, and Pinecone all nailed it right on.

I have a unique perspective... I am a master at using SMG and I have taken countless people out for their first experience driving with it... in fact, I have been responsible for training those who buy their M3 w/ SMG how to drive it properly. Almost every person I have taken out for the first time runs into this problem... some more then others. It's intensity and regularity varies depending on the DRIVER.

I find the negative comments to be hysterical and sad at the same time... I can tell you it has nothing to do with the brilliant design of the system... it is the DRIVER... period.

If it was the systems fault, guys like me as well as others in this thread wouldn't be able to overcome the problem. It would still be a problem. I have also taught many people how to drive a regular manual... and they too do the herky-jerky... so was that the trannies fault as well? Right... I didn't think so.

Pinecone had the most complete list...

1.) Get your foot out of it...
2.) Stuff your foot into it...
3.) or Shift.

It's as simple as that.

As for the coming M3... it will have the SMGIII while the Z4 will not at this time. SMGIII is a ground up design. Unlike the first two versions, which were manuals adapted to the technology, the new SMGIII was designed specifically for SMG only... so this new system is far superior to the first two versions.
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  #21  
Old 01-24-2006, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Don't be so hard on the driver..or DBW.....I see it as BMW's fault....most car manufacturers have the idea of making it easy for the average driver to drive....do you have to have So many hours of trackage to qualify to drive the BMW M....

I agree...you should know what you're driving(SMG-slop)....but I don't like the idea of making us have to drive a manualmatic(M5)...specially when their cars are falling behind..in every aspect...
M cars are NOT supposed to be everyman's car. If you want an everyman's car, buy a non-M. M cars are supposed to be thinly disquised, street legal race cars. And they used to be, but sadly no longer. And it is comments and complaints like this that cause BMW to dumb down the M cars further. Go drive an E30 M3 and try to drive it fast, it is not for your average US driver.

SMG is NOT the problem. SMG does not have slop, any more than the manual does. It uses the SAME TRANNY AND CLUTCH. It is NOT manumatic, it is a hydraulicly shifted manual tranny, versus a manaul selection of gears in an automatic transmission. Principles and design for the two trannies is totally different.
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2006, 09:38 PM
Sensation2k Sensation2k is offline
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Coming from an SMG II owner, I can tell you that it happens to the best of us .
Don`t sweat it. Just upshift and keep driving. OR, you could always floor it
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  #23  
Old 01-28-2006, 06:53 PM
MdCar MdCar is offline
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SMG vs. 6 speed??

I have ordered 650 conv and have another week to finalize any changes. Been driving a Honda S2000 6 speed and really wrestling with 6 speed vs. SMG. Unfortunately only been able to test drive a 5 with SMG around the dealer's test loop. Previous 6 speeds who moved to SMG, would appreciate your candid comments.
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  #24  
Old 01-28-2006, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdCar
I have ordered 650 conv and have another week to finalize any changes. Been driving a Honda S2000 6 speed and really wrestling with 6 speed vs. SMG. Unfortunately only been able to test drive a 5 with SMG around the dealer's test loop. Previous 6 speeds who moved to SMG, would appreciate your candid comments.
SMG in the non M models is crap.
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Old 01-28-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bren
SMG in the non M models is crap.

This is true...
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