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  #1  
Old 03-10-2006, 07:03 AM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Question 2002 E39 530i audio upgrade issues

I'm working with an installer on trying to debug an upgrade in my 2002 E39 530i. We're having a difference of opinion and I wanted to solicit the advice of people out there who have done this before on this model.

The baseline install included Focal polyglass 130V2 5.25" components up front and a 12" Orion sub in a sealed box in the trunk. I chose the Focals after auditioning a ton of speakers in the shop, and deciding that these had the best combination of imaging and overall sound quality. These are being run off a line-level converter feeding an Orion amp, a 4-channel 600 watt model which runs the sub off the bridged rear channels. The factory headunit, amp, and rear speakers remain as-is.

Low end (sub) is great. I feared this might be a problem as I don't have a trunk pass through.

But there are substantial problems in the midbass and high end. The sound is incredibly harsh, even with the Focal crossovers set to -6dB on the tweeters and Full on the mids, and the treble on the headunit all the way down. And there is a substantial falling off between where the mids drop off and the sub kicks in.

Initially, RTA showed some big spikes in the frequency response. The installer switched the tweeters to be out of phase with the mids, and while that smoothed things somewhat, my sense is that the great imaging has been lost (but that's hard to measure). I gather that for flipping the phase of the tweets to mitigate some the spikes, those spikes had to occur in the crossover region. It is much less harsh but even still, too harsh to listen at reasonably high volume without causing bleeding of the ears.

The installer says the best solution may be to swap out the OEM head unit. He says that switching to a Kenwood (because I have a phatbox) will allow a flatter baseline signal and more flexibility in adjusting eq and time alignment.

If I want to keep the OEM head unit, the installer says the best approach is probably to add a JL CleanSweep or Fosgate's new 3SIXTY.1. He believes either unit will add the flexibility to tune the response and overcome most of the limitations of the OEM headunit.

My suspicion is that the 2002 530i headunit is probably putting out a pretty untainted full-range signal (unlike my previous MINI HK stereo where you could only get equalized and cross-overed signals out of the DSP). I suspect the problems result primarily from the acoustic environment and could best be fixed by a good eq like an audio control DQT or pair of EQTs.

Here's a few questions:

1. can anyone confirm that the E39 headunit (with a good line-level converter) puts out a reasonably flat signal? I guess I'm wondering if the BMW OEM headunit or amp does anything weird like eq the output signal to try to match the factory speakers.

2. my fear with an aftermarket head unit is principally the loss of steering wheel controls. Is there any way to interface the 2002 5-series steering wheel to an aftermarket stereo? I understand generally this can be done but the E39 may have issues. (fwiw, I have the sport pkg with M-series steering wheel)

3. is there anything in particular that I should look for, such as problems with the install or defective components, that could be responsible for these problems? I know Focal speakers can be on the bright side, but this is ridiculous. Another way of asking this is if it's common to require some EQ to get the sound right when adding high-end amp and components to the OEM headunit in the E39.

4. which of the above approaches would you recommend, and why?

thanks!
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2006, 07:39 AM
Rooz Rooz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma
I'm working with an installer on trying to debug an upgrade in my 2002 E39 530i. We're having a difference of opinion and I wanted to solicit the advice of people out there who have done this before on this model.

The baseline install included Focal polyglass 130V2 5.25" components up front and a 12" Orion sub in a sealed box in the trunk. I chose the Focals after auditioning a ton of speakers in the shop, and deciding that these had the best combination of imaging and overall sound quality. These are being run off a line-level converter feeding an Orion amp, a 4-channel 600 watt model which runs the sub off the bridged rear channels. The factory headunit, amp, and rear speakers remain as-is.

Low end (sub) is great. I feared this might be a problem as I don't have a trunk pass through.

But there are substantial problems in the midbass and high end. The sound is incredibly harsh, even with the Focal crossovers set to -6dB on the tweeters and Full on the mids, and the treble on the headunit all the way down. And there is a substantial falling off between where the mids drop off and the sub kicks in.

Initially, RTA showed some big spikes in the frequency response. The installer switched the tweeters to be out of phase with the mids, and while that smoothed things somewhat, my sense is that the great imaging has been lost (but that's hard to measure). I gather that for flipping the phase of the tweets to mitigate some the spikes, those spikes had to occur in the crossover region. It is much less harsh but even still, too harsh to listen at reasonably high volume without causing bleeding of the ears.

The installer says the best solution may be to swap out the OEM head unit. He says that switching to a Kenwood (because I have a phatbox) will allow a flatter baseline signal and more flexibility in adjusting eq and time alignment.

If I want to keep the OEM head unit, the installer says the best approach is probably to add a JL CleanSweep or Fosgate's new 3SIXTY.1. He believes either unit will add the flexibility to tune the response and overcome most of the limitations of the OEM headunit.

My suspicion is that the 2002 530i headunit is probably putting out a pretty untainted full-range signal (unlike my previous MINI HK stereo where you could only get equalized and cross-overed signals out of the DSP). I suspect the problems result primarily from the acoustic environment and could best be fixed by a good eq like an audio control DQT or pair of EQTs.

Here's a few questions:

1. can anyone confirm that the E39 headunit (with a good line-level converter) puts out a reasonably flat signal? I guess I'm wondering if the BMW OEM headunit or amp does anything weird like eq the output signal to try to match the factory speakers.

2. my fear with an aftermarket head unit is principally the loss of steering wheel controls. Is there any way to interface the 2002 5-series steering wheel to an aftermarket stereo? I understand generally this can be done but the E39 may have issues. (fwiw, I have the sport pkg with M-series steering wheel)

3. is there anything in particular that I should look for, such as problems with the install or defective components, that could be responsible for these problems? I know Focal speakers can be on the bright side, but this is ridiculous. Another way of asking this is if it's common to require some EQ to get the sound right when adding high-end amp and components to the OEM headunit in the E39.

4. which of the above approaches would you recommend, and why?

thanks!
The signal from your E39 headunit is anything but flat. What I would recommend since you'r going to amp all the speakers is go with JL audio's Cleansweep. We have done at my shop steering wheel controls on an E39 without issues. Only thing You might be concerned about is where right now I think you have "bass and treble" controls, that tray will I think always remain open if you do decide to get an aftermarket CD player.

Going with JL audio's cleansweep will allow you to keep your factory CD player and add 120 band eq to your signal and get it as flat as possible, it will also give you the ability to add additional equipment through a direct auxiliary input.

And on a sidenote, why not K2p's? (that's what am putting once i buy me a 330ci )
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2006, 07:50 AM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Actually, I'm not amping the rear channels, I'm using the factory amp. Although that could change if necessary.

How did you patch into the factory steering wheel controls? I've not been able to find a reference to an interface module that works with the 2002 E39 (e.g., P/E SWIX reportedly is not compatible).

No idea what you meant about a "tray" remaining open where I have bass/treble controls. Bass and treble controls are integrated into the E39 headunit under the "audio" menu. On the steering wheel, there are bunch of (useless to me) buttons (labeled R/T, etc.) for controlling telephone, perhaps that's what you meant?

The cleansweep costs a lot more than a pair of EQTs or even a DQT. Do you think it would perform substantially better in the E39 setup?

As for the Focals, just personal preference. Listening to both head-to-head, the polyglass simply sounded better to me. Didn't hurt it was a little less expensive but that wasn't my primary driver.
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  #4  
Old 03-10-2006, 08:06 AM
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jvr826 jvr826 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma
... These are being run off a line-level converter ...
Where are you getting the signal you're sending to your new amp? Do you have DSP? Do you have Nav?

I've done this upgrade in a 2002 530i with Nav and non-dsp system and it was not at all harsh. However, I bypassed the factory amp completely. If you are not getting your new amp's signal from the pre-amp outputs on the 26-pin connector, you are not getting a full range signal.

I cannot comment if you have DSP, I always ordered my E39's without it because I knew I was going to bypass the amp and replace the speakers. DSP complicates the equation as I understand it.
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  #5  
Old 03-10-2006, 09:31 AM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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[QUOTE=Rooz]The signal from your E39 headunit is anything but flat. What I would recommend since you'r going to amp all the speakers is go with JL audio's Cleansweep. QUOTE]

Misinformation. Flag on the field.

Have you RTA'd it? I have.

That HU is flat as a pancake. All OEM EQ is in the AMP, not in the HU. I have taken an NT Istruments RTA and measured the amp input at various volume levels AND the output to each of the drivers.
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  #6  
Old 03-10-2006, 09:38 AM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma

1. can anyone confirm that the E39 headunit (with a good line-level converter) puts out a reasonably flat signal? I guess I'm wondering if the BMW OEM headunit or amp does anything weird like eq the output signal to try to match the factory speakers.
Yes, it is flat. The output of the AMP is not flat, and if you are retaining the OEM amp, either as the amp OR in the signal chain at all, you need to jettison that POS (and perhaps your installer at the same time...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma

2. my fear with an aftermarket head unit is principally the loss of steering wheel controls. Is there any way to interface the 2002 5-series steering wheel to an aftermarket stereo? I understand generally this can be done but the E39 may have issues. (fwiw, I have the sport pkg with M-series steering wheel)
The PAC SWI units that use IR seem to be problematic. I don't know if there's a great way - because at my shop we retain the HU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma

3. is there anything in particular that I should look for, such as problems with the install or defective components, that could be responsible for these problems? I know Focal speakers can be on the bright side, but this is ridiculous. Another way of asking this is if it's common to require some EQ to get the sound right when adding high-end amp and components to the OEM headunit in the E39.
You do not NEED an EQ, I don't think - although Focals sound better in the board than in the car IMO. Did your car have the ABS molded boxes, and were they removed by the installer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma
4. which of the above approaches would you recommend, and why?

thanks!
At my shop we would look at the HU-LOC interface. Your installer really doesn't understand electronic signals, like many don't, so he's not your strongest link.

You need to replace that OEM amp entirely with aftermarket, driven from the flat signal out of the OEM HU.
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:11 PM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Sounds like my suspicions were closer to right, then.

1. no DSP, right, just the amp.

2. I was surprised to learn that they were using post-amp signals. But then I didn't know one could get at the preamp signals before the stock amp.

3. Given the choice, would you run NO rear speakers or keep the rears running of the stock amp? I assume the best answer is upgrade the rears and run them off another aftermarket amp, but I was hoping to cap my costs at some point....

Not sure how to proceed with the installer - I like them but they seem to have dropped the ball on how to get a clean line-level signal.

My guess is that this is how I need to proceed:

1. Tell the installer that we're doing the fix my way, not adding any more components.
2. Find the pinout for the plug going into the stock amp. (do you have a link?)
3. Delete the stock amp. (probably simpler than trying to get them to maintain it correctly)
4. Also delete the speaker-to-line-level converter doodad
5. splice into the line level signals coming into that jack, and wire them into RCAs going into my Orion amp.
6. see how things sound.
7. Consider adding another amp (and speakers?) for rear fill, or swap the 4-ch orion for a 6-ch amp.

Does this sound right? Any suggestions or modifications to this approach?
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Old 03-10-2006, 04:29 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma
3. Given the choice, would you run NO rear speakers or keep the rears running of the stock amp? I assume the best answer is upgrade the rears and run them off another aftermarket amp, but I was hoping to cap my costs at some point....
Rear speakers degrade stereo imaging and front stage. All they do is help you play the system louder, and since speakers are better today and watts are cheap, I spend a lot of my day recommending against rear speakers - until you are spending enough to get the best FRONT speakers you can...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma

Not sure how to proceed with the installer - I like them but they seem to have dropped the ball on how to get a clean line-level signal.
I may have been harsh - since MOST installers don't know how to do what you want, at least get one you like. If he is having trouble, you can have him call me. I can walk him through it nicely I did tech support for 12V products for install shops for years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma
1. Tell the installer that we're doing the fix my way, not adding any more components.
2. Find the pinout for the plug going into the stock amp. (do you have a link?)
3. Delete the stock amp. (probably simpler than trying to get them to maintain it correctly)
4. Also delete the speaker-to-line-level converter doodad
5. splice into the line level signals coming into that jack, and wire them into RCAs going into my Orion amp.
6. see how things sound.
7. Consider adding another amp (and speakers?) for rear fill, or swap the 4-ch orion for a 6-ch amp.

Does this sound right? Any suggestions or modifications to this approach?
1. You do need an amp, right?

2. I don't know the pinout OTTOMH, but I'd look here and here:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=167293

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=360756

3. Yes and yes. Make SURE they don't automatically retain that LOC for the Preamp - to - RCA conversion w/o knowing why. Lots of installers use them for ANY wire-to-RCA conversion. \

4. There is no 4.

5. The "line level" signals are balanced. If your amp has "balanced compatible" inputs, you can do that. If your amp doesn't, you need an LOC - but a different kind of LOC. Soundgate LOCPREA (x2), Peripheral SVEN4, or PAC OEM4 (all for 4 channels of conversion). I like to jettison the rear speakers and use the R HU out for sub level control. from the fader.

6. There is no 6.

7. NOT a fan of that Orion. I'd consider trading it in for a 3- or 4-channel amp that will work better - JL "slash", DLS, Zapco, audison, Arc Audio, all are amps that should work well with balanced signals. What options have you at this store?
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2006, 04:58 PM
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What Jeff and el duderino said.

Get rid of the OEM amp and take the line outs from the HU directly into aftermarket amps to run all of the speakers. To minimize work you could just add a new amp to power the speakers in the rear deck and loose the tweeters in the rear doors - they would just be fill and my not be that great. What I did was replace the rear deck speakers with a set of 2-way components and lost the door tweeter.

My setup - a/d/s 335is in front (tweeter in door mid position), a/d/s 335im in the rear deck - both pwered by an Alpine MRFV545; a/d/s 310rs sub in the trunk powered by an Alpine MRPM350. Was not that difficult to do once you get the connectors sorted (Thanks Jeff!!) - though it can be a bit of a pain to find them. Here is a link to Jeff's site with the pin-outs - I do need to go back to my notes though as I think a couple of the connectors in the 26 pin plug may be reversed...

jvr826 5-series audio upgrade
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Old 03-10-2006, 05:16 PM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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El Duderino (I'm guessing you're not into the whole "brevity" thing?):

I can't say THANK YOU enough for the incredibly quick responses and very insightful advice.

My installer is good, and his attitude is definitely to do it right. I think the problem is that the lead installer guy was actually on vacation the day my car was in for the install, and came into the picture only later to try to tune it up and get things right.

Anyway ... he is going to take the car back for a day and do what we discussed after some more analysis of his own. He's first going to hook the RTA in at various places in the path to see for himself exactly what's going on and confirm what you've said. And he also suggests eliminating the rear amp and speaks altogether and go with fronts only.

Of course I need an amp, the one in there is an Orion 8004, I believe. It's a giant silver 4-channel beast. Don't know if it can take balanced inputs, but I'll find out -- I agree I would rather swap it for something else that can handle it, than introduce another piece of unnecessary and likely signal-degrading electronics. I think they also sell JL, Rockford, Alpine, Kenwood, and some other brands.

Assuming the Orion doesn't handle balanced inputs, what amp do you recommend?

Thanks again for all the detailed and savvy advice.
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Old 03-10-2006, 05:24 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Happy to help! A friend of ours just got an E39 and I've been planning for a system in that.

He will find a roller coaster out of the amp, but a flat prairie out of the HU. Give him the links I gave you - lotsa good info in there.

Of that list, the JL 300/4 would be my choice. Use the F half on the F mids, the R half on the sub bridged to mono, and it will take OEM balanced in without an LOC (the gain usually has to be low - if you need it higher, you might need an LOC or just a ground loop isolator, but give it a try). If they have DLS, the Reference RA30 or RA40 would be better sounding, and the CA31 or CA41 Classics would be as good and cheaper.

Not a fan of Orion/DEI amps. Might work great... but not a fan. Not what they were back in the day.
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Old 03-12-2006, 06:44 AM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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By the way: what are the ABS-molded boxes to which you refer? Something in the doors? What should I be looking for and what should the installer have done with them?
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Old 03-12-2006, 05:34 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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The E39's I've been in had a black long shallow enclosure behind the speaker, mounted in the door panel. Helped get more LF out of the bottom end of that 5.25.

If you put a 6.5 in there he probably had to pull them...
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:19 AM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Didn't find out about the door enclosure; in any case, we used the Focal Polyglass 5.25" components.

I am VERY happy to report that the system sounds fabulous. Took the signal before the amp using the SVEN loc, ran the front channel into the front speakers and the rear channel into the sub to allow for fader control. Can't even tell that the rear speaks are disconnected, midbass is great, and freq response is smooth all the way up -- no more harshness at all. Imaging is very good although probably not as good as it would be with a center seating location (or time alignment). We put in a yellow top battery while we were at it, too.

Thank you again for the great advice.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:52 AM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Glad to hear it!

Don't need no stinkin' rear speaks

Have any friends in the NW, make sure to tell them where to get their cars done
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:28 PM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Okay, El Duderino or anyone else, I need advice again. Had an issue with the Orion amp, and they decided to replace it. (It was overheating and cutting out, but I think that was because they had the impedance wrong on the sub.)

Now, everything is close to perfect but I have one major problem that my installer so far has been unable to resolve. I'm wondering if it could be a speaker defect, but it's probably something with the install.

In my E39, particularly when playing acoustic guitar and piano tracks, there is a buzzing coming from somewhere in the vicinity of the passenger door in approx the 100 - 125 Hz range. It sounds like it's coming from the speaker itself but it is hard to isolate and could be the door or even the dashboard. It is primarily noticeable when playing solo acoustic guitar tracks or piano intros. There is a tiny bit of similar buzzing on the driver side but hardly noticeable in comparison.

This is with the Focal polyglass components with 5.25" midrange.

They've dynamatted the hell out of the passenger door, and although that cut down on some of the other resonance/buzzing I was hearing, we've had no luck eliminating the problems with solo acoustic guitar and piano.

First, I wonder if this could be caused by a defective or blown midrange? The installer doubts this is the problem because the system generally sounds good except in this situation.

Or, is this perhaps a common problem with the E39? Can anyone offer some idea as to the likely source of this problem, or in any event what I ought to try to troubleshoot? I suppose I could turn the front/sub crossovers way up but that seems an unnecessary compromise.

Thanks again, oh bimmerfest community, for listening.

Monty
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Old 04-10-2006, 12:41 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Sorry to hear you are having this problem.

Does the installer have a test-tone generator or tone sweep that will help him hear the buzz?

It sounds like something is loose, or the surround is hitting the back of the door panel. To see if the speaker is blown, your installer needs to swap the two F mids. If the problem moves, it was the mid. If the problem doesn't move, it's the door panel. (If you pull the DP and the surround has a worn spot on it...)

If you listen to it from the pass seat with the door all the way open you should be able to verify if it's in the dash or not. We had a customer with this problem recently - screw in the heater vent - and that's how we could tell.
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Old 04-10-2006, 03:31 PM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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I have a few music CDs that reliably generate the problem. Also have a test CD with a few different tone sweeps that can be used.

I'll try the play-with-door-open trick tonight. Other tests will require disassembly and I am going to have to arrange to visit the installer yet again to make that happen....

Is it really possible for a blown or defective midrange to sound good in other than the 100-125Hz range?

When you say the "surround" I gather you mean that there is some sort of chamber in which the speaker is sitting? I will have to have them tear apart the doors again to check that, and to swap the speaks to see if the problem moves left/right. If the surround is hitting the door, that's not going to be visible without removing the surround, right? If that is the problem, is the solution to dynamat the back side of the surround and where it meets the back of the door panel?

thanks!

monty
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Old 04-10-2006, 04:09 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkosma

When you say the "surround" I gather you mean that there is some sort of chamber in which the speaker is sitting? I will have to have them tear apart the doors again to check that, and to swap the speaks to see if the problem moves left/right. If the surround is hitting the door, that's not going to be visible without removing the surround, right? If that is the problem, is the solution to dynamat the back side of the surround and where it meets the back of the door panel?
There probably is such a chamber, but that's not it. The speaker cone is suspended in the center of the frame by two suspension pieces. The one at the top of the cone is called the "surround" and it's a semi-cylinder glued to the cone on the inside and the frame on the outside. It usually bulges out, and with longer-travel excursion, can strike something that's too close in front of it.

It usually is not visible without pulling the door.

What you've got is definitely the sort of problem that any self-respecting installer wants to eliminate. Unfortunately, most installers get paid by the job, not by the hour, so your installer may be losing money every time he touches your car, by this time. Be that as it may, this is the sort of issue that he should be addressing.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:34 PM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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What's the scoop? Any developments?
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RIP avincar - check out musicarnw.com in Portland, OR.

Specializing in European car audio and entertainment upgrades done right.

Also check out OEinterface.com - OEM integration resource
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2006, 10:18 PM
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underaudio underaudio is offline
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Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Mein Auto: 02' 530i Spt, 04' x3 3.0
el duderino

all i can say is THANKS!! adding the SVEN4 (or equivalent) is the best move you can make. you are absolutely correct. no matter what you do, if you keep the factory head and or amp, you absolutely need an LOC of some type.

for example - create a mini harness from the following parts:

1 to-car connector/harness
1 to-HU connector/harness
1 4-channel LOC

connect the harnesses together back-to-back except for the speaker leads from the HU. send them to the LOC and you have pristine RCA outs for all 4 channels.

http://www.underaudio.com/products.htm
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  #22  
Old 04-23-2006, 07:54 PM
mkosma mkosma is offline
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Location: Virginia
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Mein Auto: not sure yet...
Quote:
Originally Posted by el_duderino
What's the scoop? Any developments?
Here's the latest:

Did some tests as we discussed. Swapped left and right channels, but the kazoo-like sounds stayed where they were, predominantly on the passenger side of the car. Finally got my schedule freed up, took off a couple hours one afternoon, and went back to the install shop. We disassembled the door and tried everything again. Here's what we discovered.

With the door panel off, the speakers sounded far better - not perfect, there was still a small amount of vibration, but in a much narrower range and much more quiet. What buzzing there was seemed to come from up around the airbag.

I had misunderstood where the crossovers were set, thinking they were around 100Hz. Turns out the fronts were high-passed at 50Hz. So we raised that up to around 100Hz and a lot of the vibration and buzzing went away.

Now, the problem is that with the crossovers set so high, the midbass is pretty thin-sounding, but it's an improvement over where it was. They had already dynamatted a lot of the door, and didn't think more work on that would help.

My inclination is to think that something is still not properly damped:

1. There's this plastic box in which the speaker mounts. Looks kind of like a waveguide or something. They did have it filled with polyfill, but that thing seems to be still buzzing a bit. Not sure whether it can or should be removed, because if that comes out there seems to be nowhere to mount the speaker.

2. The door panel itself is pretty stiff. Not sure if it would help to dynamat the whole back side of the panel. Alternatively, it could be one of the clips that is buzzing. I'm not sure what to do and the installer is pretty frustrated. I think he thinks that he's done everything he can to isolate and eliminate this vibration.


Anyone have any ideas whether anything else can/should be done with the BMW door to fix this sort of problem?

I'm thinking I may give the dealer one more shot, or may take a crack at it myself if I can figure out how to remove the panel without damaging it. Alterantively, I might see if another shop would be willing to fix the vibration for a flat charge of some sort.

monty
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  #23  
Old 04-24-2006, 10:23 AM
el_duderino el_duderino is offline
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Location: Portland OR
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Mein Auto: 07 E91 xiT
In some cars I have damped the back of the door panel a good bit.

The xover point needs to be lower than that. Eliminating a buzz by making the expensive system sound bad is not an option.

There is indeed nowhere to mount the speaker if you pull the box. The box is really just a funky-shaped enclosure.

We recently had a very similar problem in a 2006 Audi A3. Turned out the speaker grilles vibrated in the door. Easy to fix.

How hard is it to pull the speaker box off of the door and make sure that removing it from the door eliminates any rattling?

If you decided to take a crack at it yourself, feel free to email pics to me and we can talk on the phone in real time. I can also send you some damping material if needed.
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2007 E91 xiT

RIP avincar - check out musicarnw.com in Portland, OR.

Specializing in European car audio and entertainment upgrades done right.

Also check out OEinterface.com - OEM integration resource
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