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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #1  
Old 04-09-2006, 09:58 PM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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4.10s Don't Really Kill Your Top End

So I took a little road trip this weekend from Vegas to the Valley to OC to San Diego and back.

On the way from the Valley to Vegas, just south of Barstow, I opened it up a bit to see how my recently installed gears affected my top end. The road was wide, new, multi-laned, and open (cars travelling in the opposite direction). I did approximately 160mph at around 7K rpm. With another 1K rpm left, I am pretty sure the car could do at least 170mph. As soon as I glanced down and saw 160 with 1K left, I let off the gas and returned to cruising speed.

So for those of you concerned that you will lose your top end, put that out of your mind. I mean how often do you really need to go over 160mph?
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  #2  
Old 04-10-2006, 05:06 AM
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Minus speedo error, which at that speed can be almost 20 MPH.
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  #3  
Old 04-10-2006, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState
So for those of you concerned that you will lose your top end, put that out of your mind. I mean how often do you really need to go over 160mph?
When racing red Enzo's in Malibu.
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Old 04-10-2006, 11:55 PM
Franko9217 Franko9217 is offline
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What is the stock gearing?

How much does the gears/install cost?

What other options are there for gears?
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  #5  
Old 04-11-2006, 12:10 AM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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Stock is 3.62. I paid around $1600 total (parts & labor). I don't know too much about options; I only wanted the ratio changed.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:33 AM
Franko9217 Franko9217 is offline
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Thanks for the info. I've changed my gears in my vette and viper and it's unreal. I don't think i've ever met somebody that didn't like the change, as a matter of fact most people say they should of did it earlier!
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  #7  
Old 04-11-2006, 07:18 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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With due respect to other posters in this string, be careful when you are considering final drive changes for better performance. Basically, what you get for your money is better top gear acceleration and responsiveness out on the highway, tempered by the fact that the car will be somewhat noisier and will use more gas.

That's it in terms of performance.

I know, I know. Most folks think that switching from, say, a 3.62 gear to a 4.10 will give them a roughly 13% acceleration advantage in every gear, at any speed.

That turns out not to be the case, as we diplomats say. The reason is that in identical cars (except for gearing), the car that is making more horsepower at any given instant in time will be accelerating harder than the other vehicle, gearing be damned. (Don't make me do the math on this. Just nod your head.) This means that in a drag race, the 4.10 car will theoretically get a jump on the 3.62 car while launching from a stop (although this may be debatable because of traction limitations), but after the 4.10 car has shifted to second, the 3.62 car is still in first, higher in the rpm band and making more power. At that point in time, the 3.62 car is accelerating harder - until it shifts to second, whereupon the 4.10 car will be accelerating harder, but then it needs to shift, and then...

You see the point. Its a see-saw battle after the launch.

If the 4.10 car really was pulling 13% harder in every gear at every speed, it would be around 4.2% quicker and faster in a drag race. In a quarter mile for an M3, this is around six tenths of a second (six car lengths) and between four and five mph faster.

As a practical matter, the 4.10 car should be ahead of the 3.62 car in a drag race, mostly because it gets an early jump (providing you can manage traction), and because it gets an early advantage in each gear, as opposed to a later advantage. However, although this has definite ET implications, it's typically not by so significant a number. At a guess, between one and two-tenths of a second in a quarter mile (one to two car lengths). Trap speed may be up by a small amount (maybe one mph), because trap speed is dictated by average horsepower over the distance travelled, and the 4.10 car will likely have averaged slightly higher rpm over that distance - although that's far from automatic.

Out on the mean streets in a typical traffic situation, the 4.10 car will typically be a little *slower* than the 3.62 car, because both cars will accelerate at a common rate (you're just driving, right?), and the 4.10 car will have its power interrupted earlier than the 3.62 car (because it will shift to 2nd earlier). The "ET" implications then favor the 3.62 car to the next light, assuming each driver is oblivious to the other, and testosterone doesn't enter the fray.

On current six-speed Vettes and Vipers, gearing is essentially dictated by U.S. CAFE standards (hence the really deep overdrive in 5th and 6th), and the cars are relative slugs out on the highway in top gear. Switching to 3.73s (or whatever) transforms them in terms of effortless acceleration at a typical 75-80 mph cruise. As Franko9217 says, "...it's unreal!" The gearing change, as mentioned, will have much less of an effect in a drag race, but these cars really do wake up on the highway without having to downshift.

This is much less obvious in a current M3, which is likely to be doing around 3000 rpm at a typical cruise, and the car is beginning to wake up and get with the program at that point. The obvious test point is this: If you'd like better high-gear responsiveness, just slip it into fifth and otherwise drive normally out on the highway. If you really like the result, you are a good candidate for a gear change.

Note that this test isn't really accurate, in that it will give you a roughly 20% bump in gearing as opposed to 13%, but it's pretty close, and will serve you well. This type of test isn't usefull on Vipers and Vettes (in that fifth gear gives you something around a 50% bump in gearing), but it works well for "Euro" geared cars, with their closer ratios in the top gears.

Bruce

Last edited by Augenstein; 04-11-2006 at 02:53 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-11-2006, 08:12 AM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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For my car, I get better acceleration at the top end AND out of the hole. But then, I have some decent-sized meats on the car. I imagine with skinny tires more gear would result in too much spinning.
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  #9  
Old 04-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState
For my car, I get better acceleration at the top end AND out of the hole. But then, I have some decent-sized meats on the car. I imagine with skinny tires more gear would result in too much spinning.
You don't get better acceleration at the top end. As soon as you shift (to fourth, fifth or sixth), at that point your evil twin is accelerating harder than you are. As an example, you'll be shifting to sixth at about 146 mph, while he is nicely winding out fifth to the stock speed limiter. Advantage: Evil twin.

He can go to about 165 in fifth, assuming modified top-speed electronics. At that point (assuming the unfettered top speed is more than that), you would indeed have the advantage, sixth gear to sixth gear.

If that's what you mean by top end (meaning the car is actually capable of exceeding 165), then you are indeed correct. In all other examples of 165 and below, it's a see-saw battle, for reasons mentioned.

Bruce
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  #10  
Old 04-11-2006, 10:23 AM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenstein
You don't get better acceleration at the top end. As soon as you shift (to fourth, fifth or sixth), at that point your evil twin is accelerating harder than you are. As an example, you'll be shifting to sixth at about 146 mph, while he is nicely winding out fifth to the stock speed limiter. Advantage: Evil twin.

He can go to about 165 in fifth, assuming modified top-speed electronics. At that point (assuming the unfettered top speed is more than that), you would indeed have the advantage, sixth gear to sixth gear.

If that's what you mean by top end (meaning the car is actually capable of exceeding 165), then you are indeed correct. In all other examples of 165 and below, it's a see-saw battle, for reasons mentioned.

Bruce
If that is what you believe, don't get them. Here is some good information about how more gear helps an M3 accelerate:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=95653
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  #11  
Old 04-11-2006, 02:36 PM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState
If that is what you believe, don't get them. Here is some good information about how more gear helps an M3 accelerate:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=95653
That is a great piece! Thanks!

It supports exactly what I've been saying, however. After the launch, it's a see-saw battle, with a slight advantage going to the 4.10 car because it has the advantage early in each gear. Note, as an example, that just before the 1-2 shift, the 4.10 car has an advantage of .2752 du, while at 102 mph, the 4.10 car is only ahead by .1427 du, or about half as much. At 171 mph, the advantage is .4208 du - about half again as much as the advantage at 36 mph.

Bottom line: If you're drag racing your evil twin in his 3.62 car, make sure you pick the speed that is right for you and wrong for him as your starting point. Going from 20 mph is good for you, for instance, but going from something near 35 is bad for you, because you'll be in second at the time while he's in first - and you will likely never make up the difference after he scoots out on you.

BTW, if you are making the inference that I am anti 4.10s, that isn't the case. I'm just passing on information, because I've spoken with bunches of drivers over the years who didn't get what they thought they were going to get when they made a final drive change.

Thanks again.

Bruce
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2006, 03:41 PM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenstein
with a slight advantage going to the 4.10 car
Agreed.

BTW, in the old days, with the two, three, four, and even five speeds, most of which had redlines of 6K rpm, running 4.10s was quite a sacrifice. You would lose all kinds of top end. But with a six speed and and 8100 redline, it is all good.
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  #13  
Old 04-15-2006, 03:18 AM
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Sounds great, but drag guys run rears in the 5.60 range. And win.

And HP has nothing to do with acceleration, it has to do with torque delivered to the rear wheels. DO a search, lots of info on that. And gearing multiplies torque, so lower rear ratio (higher numerical) gives more acceleration in any gear. Yes, for a period when the lower geared car upshifts, the other car will have an advantage, but that advantage will be more than canceled out when the higher geared car upshifts. The lower geared car will have the advantage of gearing and will be closer to torque peak and accelerating much higher.
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  #14  
Old 04-15-2006, 06:52 PM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Sounds great, but drag guys run rears in the 5.60 range. And win.

Agreed, but what is your point? We've already agreed that gearing has clear ET implications. My point is that, after the launch, it's a see-saw battle, with a *slight* advantage to the geared car because it has the earlier advantage.

And HP has nothing to do with acceleration, it has to do with torque delivered to the rear wheels. DO a search, lots of info on that.

Yeah. I admit your method is quaint, but the rest of us will just skip the extra arithmetic and go with horsepower. It equates to the same thing without the extra step.

And gearing multiplies torque, so lower rear ratio (higher numerical) gives more acceleration in any gear. Yes, for a period when the lower geared car upshifts, the other car will have an advantage, but that advantage will be more than canceled out when the higher geared car upshifts. The lower geared car will have the advantage of gearing and will be closer to torque peak and accelerating much higher.
No, the lower geared car will be accelerating harder because it's making more horsepower at that point. Gearing is immaterial in that context.

Check out the analysis in the url SilverState gave us. If you assume the advantage the 4.10 car has at 36 mph is, say, a car length, then at 102 mph, the 4.10 car has *lost* a half car between 36 and 102 mph, and all the way up at 171 mph, it's picked up a half car from where it was at 36 mph.

As I said, it's a see-saw battle after launch, with a *slight* advantage to the geared car.

Bruce
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  #15  
Old 04-15-2006, 09:52 PM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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I am not much of a mathmetician, so I just go with what has been proven to work for others. The consensus at the drag strip is that a 4.10 M3 will run two to four tenths quicker than the stock-geared car.
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:49 AM
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Gow ith what you want to go with, but torque is what generates acceleration PERIOD. Gearing multiplies torque. F=MA, you can't argue with the laws of physics, they are the law. Torque is a force, HP is not.

After each car shifts into the higher gear, the lower geared (higher numerical) will have an advantage in EACH GEAR. It will lose a bit in the period between it shifting and the other car shifting, but the lower gearing even helps in that.

I am on the road, so I don'thave my numbers and charts with me, but graph the torque delivered to the rear wheels for a 3.62 and 4.10 versus speed by gear. You will see that the 4.10 car has more torque delivered over pretty much the entire speed range.
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:22 PM
andy_thomas andy_thomas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
I am on the road, so I don'thave my numbers and charts with me, but graph the torque delivered to the rear wheels for a 3.62 and 4.10 versus speed by gear. You will see that the 4.10 car has more torque delivered over pretty much the entire speed range.
This isn't my pitched battle () but I can relay BMW's own results when a car is geared approximately 12% lower. My car is available in the UK with a 3.45:1 rear drive, and 3.91:1 in other markets. In other markets, the car is 4-5% more accelerative in terms of 0-100 km/h, 0-400m and 0-1000m (don't get excited, it's a two litre E46, not an M3). It also loses 2-3% economy.

This lower final drive is also available as part of towing preparation. I had it fitted after the factory 3.45 went bad and its identical replacement also went bad. The car is clearly zippier off the line, but I am aware of changing gears more around town. However, performance in 4th and 5th is greatly improved. 4th is more of an acceleration gear than a cruising gear, going from 21 mph/1000 rpm to 18.5, which means I can join an 80-85 mph motorway smartly without having to change down to 3rd and have the engine scream ineffectually (3rd is already quite short). Also, 5th is now more responsive, a point already made in this thread.

The downside is the low 3rd gear, which now stretches to less than 80 mph and is useful only on the sort of winding country lanes and swooping A-roads I never drive down. Also economy has fallen by about 5%. I reckon it's even
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:44 PM
Jim in Oregon Jim in Oregon is online now
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You need to be careful with 4.10 rear end and SMG. With 4.10 gearing, you can now over rev the engine on a downshift. SMG on downshifts is programmed to read the speed of the car when determining whether or not to downshift. So if in downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at say 60 mph, it will allow a downshift, because at 60 mph in 2nd gear the revs will be say 7500 rpm with the 3.62 rear end. But now with a 4.10 rear end SMG will still allow that shift from 3rd to 2nd, but 2nd gear at 60 mph now might be 8200 rpm...an over rev. It's just something to get used to if you make the change to 4.10 rear end.
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:53 PM
SilverState SilverState is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in Oregon
You need to be careful with 4.10 rear end and SMG. With 4.10 gearing, you can now over rev the engine on a downshift. SMG on downshifts is programmed to read the speed of the car when determining whether or not to downshift. So if in downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at say 60 mph, it will allow a downshift, because at 60 mph in 2nd gear the revs will be say 7500 rpm with the 3.62 rear end. But now with a 4.10 rear end SMG will still allow that shift from 3rd to 2nd, but 2nd gear at 60 mph now might be 8200 rpm...an over rev. It's just something to get used to if you make the change to 4.10 rear end.
You just have to use common sense, kinda like if you had a manual transmission. You could shift from the top of 6th into 2nd, but you wouldn't. Same thing.
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Old 04-17-2006, 10:41 AM
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Except that some people have gotten lazy and allow SMG to deal with things like this. So being aware is a GOOD thing.
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:50 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Gow ith what you want to go with, but torque is what generates acceleration PERIOD. Gearing multiplies torque. F=MA, you can't argue with the laws of physics, they are the law. Torque is a force, HP is not.

I don't disagree with this, nor did I disagree the last six or eight times you mentioned it. However, you have steadfastly refused to recognize that using horsepower is an easier and cleaner method for determining shift points, as a for instance. In fact, you've gone so far as to say that you can't use horspower in that context, which is just silly.

After each car shifts into the higher gear, the lower geared (higher numerical) will have an advantage in EACH GEAR. It will lose a bit in the period between it shifting and the other car shifting, but the lower gearing even helps in that.

What the lower-geared car loses between shifts is strictly and absolutely determined by the shape of the torque curve and gear spacing. It loses a little or a lot - not "a bit", which is a generalization. I've done dozens of cars over the years using this method, and results vary. As I've mentioned, I haven't figured out how to do this graphic properly since I've switched to Excel, but give me time.

I am on the road, so I don'thave my numbers and charts with me, but graph the torque delivered to the rear wheels for a 3.62 and 4.10 versus speed by gear. You will see that the 4.10 car has more torque delivered over pretty much the entire speed range.
OK, I assume you're back now. Please post the graph.

Bruce
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:12 AM
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No still in Europe, Bosnia to be exact. Why would you think I was back?
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2006, 10:26 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
No still in Europe, Bosnia to be exact. Why would you think I was back?
Just assumed it was a short trip, and that you might not be posting from Bosnia.

When you get back, please.

Bruce
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:05 PM
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Once upon a time I did a lot of drag-recing. NO, not from a rolling start; from a dead stop. If it's from a rolling start it's not a drag race.

I once had the chance to borrow some gears and try then at the strip. When I changed from 4.10's to 4.56's my 1/4-mile ET dropped by a half-second to a full second. This was many years ago and not in a BMW, but the gearing change was the only change made to the car at that time. The 4.56 gears accelerated better than the 4.10 gears --- period.

Please give this some thought.
What makes your car move?
It's the force applied between the tyres and the pavement and nothing else. That force is the direct result of the torque applied to the driving axles and nothing else.

If you are hung up on horsepower as a measurement, give some thought to the fact that your hp peak is at a higher rpm than your torque peak, so gears that keep your revs higher also give you more hp to use.

Yeah, you can compare the low-geared car in 3rd gear to the high-geared car in 2nd gear and get strange results, but you can also compare apples to oranges.
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:52 PM
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I have seen the same result as Bob.
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