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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #26  
Old 04-29-2006, 09:34 AM
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JayK330 JayK330 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czachari
That demolishes the 328i. Basically the low end bimmers are getting totally overpowered by MUCH cheaper japanese cars. New study shows that in the US Lexus overtook BMW in prestige ratings among affluent buyers.


CZ
I never really knew that power had anything to do with prestige? If you're talking about prestige I think BMW has far more than Lexus.

I still think the base MSRP for the 335 will not be any higher than $42K, and I still think it will be slightly lower than that.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinZero
I know it's been pointed out repeatedly, but I have to add another objection to your logic. How much a certain car costs in overseas market has very little to do with how much it would cost here in the US. This is especially more so in the luxury segment.

You can buy a Hyundai Accent for about $10K in the US. And I guarantee you that you won't find it a lot cheaper or more expensive anywhere else in the world. You basically pay for the production cost plus a small amount of margin.

Luxury cars, on the other hand, have much more pricing flexibility, and it's more marketing than anything that determines the price of a car. You always pay for the "badge", and the price of the "badge" differs greatly depends on where you are. This obviously allows the company to extract much higher profit per vehicle, which is why everyone wants to "move upmarket" these days.

If BMW is replacing the 330i with the 335i in the US, then they will not make it significantly more expensive than the 330i. It's not like they will lose money if they can't get $45K for it, even at $39K I'm sure they make a decent profit out of it.
Incidentally, you almost has answered the question for me. See bold.
I think a lot of people don't get what that mean. 'Flexibility' meaning, no one can predict the marketing position as how BMW is going to target

BMW is a German brand car made overseas, I do not see how Amercia can predict the price for something they are not the first to get it? Do you have 130i ? (We have!)
About the formula, I did not calculate it from no where.
Based on my 330i invoice before tax, the base price is ~us40K. So I take that the 330i price is $36K in USA, that means our dealer markup on the 330i is max.~10%.
( I say max. because our 330i standard package already includes metallic piant, moonroof, memory leather seats )
Based on here some of our salesman quoted 335i retail price is HK$680,000, I subtracted the tax and also subtracted a dealer markup of 20%! That still give me us$45K.

Your argument about 335i is replacing 330i is very thin at this point of time. First, we only know there is a 335i E92, not 335i E90. Second, we are hearing 330i E90 will be off production in USA, there is still no offical news 330i is terminated worldwide. Do we hear if 325i 2.5 litre is going to cease , no, we don't. Can we be 100% sure BMW wouldn't introduce a 330i E92 later?

I am not here to stuff $45K a 335i in anybody's mouth. Not until I see something solid, I am not convinced BMW will give potential 330i buyer a 310hp brand new turbo engine for 1K more. A 272hp CLK350 in USA is $46K, the 306hp CLK500 is 55K. Historically, a BMW equivalent is either cheaper or 10-14% more power for same price.
My guessed 335i price makes sense.
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Last edited by cntlaw; 04-29-2006 at 09:58 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2006, 12:58 PM
czachari czachari is offline
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Personally I think BMW > Lexus in prestige

But, recent polls show otherwise in the USA. Lexus > BMW right now in the USA. If that is indeed the case, BMW cannot charge much more than Lexus in the same segment. The reason I brought up the Camry is that it looks damn nice, it's not quite near-lux like the 3-series but if you can get it with 268hp loaded for less than 30K that will have to steal some 328i sales. Not all BMW buyers buy it for the prestige factor.


CZ
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czachari
But, recent polls show otherwise in the USA. Lexus > BMW right now in the USA. If that is indeed the case, BMW cannot charge much more than Lexus in the same segment. The reason I brought up the Camry is that it looks damn nice, it's not quite near-lux like the 3-series but if you can get it with 268hp loaded for less than 30K that will have to steal some 328i sales. Not all BMW buyers buy it for the prestige factor.


CZ
Your argument is flawed as you're putting too much faith in one metric - peak horsepower at unspecified RPM. There's no correlation, as factors like weight and power over the RPM range are in play. 0-60 is a better method of evaluating but not an overall picture either. Let's look at it through your perspective:

- 255hp BMWs blow the doors off of 260hp Camrys
- 290hp Porsche Caymans blow the doors off of 300hp G35s
- 220hp WRX's blow the doors off of 215hp BMWs

Similarly, you can't measure the output of a computer in mhz as disk read/write, cache size, bus speed, operating temp, instruction set, etc are in play.

Car purchases aren't made from out of context numbers touted in brochures. Start it up and drive it.

Last edited by westwest888; 04-29-2006 at 01:16 PM.
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:43 PM
user1 user1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888
Your argument is flawed as you're putting too much faith in one metric - peak horsepower at unspecified RPM. There's no correlation, as factors like weight and power over the RPM range are in play. 0-60 is a better method of evaluating but not an overall picture either. Let's look at it through your perspective:

- 255hp BMWs blow the doors off of 260hp Camrys
- 290hp Porsche Caymans blow the doors off of 300hp G35s
- 220hp WRX's blow the doors off of 215hp BMWs

Similarly, you can't measure the output of a computer in mhz as disk read/write, cache size, bus speed, operating temp, instruction set, etc are in play.

Car purchases aren't made from out of context numbers touted in brochures. Start it up and drive it.
I think your comparisons show where power to weight ratios come into play. More or less HP means nothing unless we know how much weight those horse need to push/pull.

I agree with what you have stated except the last two sentences. You are giving US consumers too much credit. The average US buyer will take the test drive but realistically wont be able to tell the difference between cars. So the salesman in the passenger seat is feeding the buyer numbers and reinforcing the buyers opinions to buy the car. Unfortunately cars in the US are bought off numbers. At the end of the day people are comparing numbers with their neighbors just as the people on this board compare numbers. You hardly ever hear someone say I bought this car because it felt faster than another one. It all comes down to numbers in the US. Iím not saying that its right, but it happens.
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  #31  
Old 04-29-2006, 02:06 PM
czachari czachari is offline
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Well, Camry has the 3.5L so it will be fast

It probably won't be anywhere near the driving dynamics of a 3-series but it will probably blow the doors off a 328i in a straight line. Personally, I'd be upset if I got killed by a < $30K camry in my ~$40K 328i (with options). If you're ok with that, more power to you .


CZ
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  #32  
Old 04-29-2006, 02:25 PM
akhbhaat akhbhaat is offline
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What happens to the E92 is partially dependant upon what BMW does with the E90.

If the 325/330 lineup is to remain intact on the E90 side, BMW has more room to increase prices of the E92 and likely will. If not, there will be minimal increases across the board. If there's to be a 328i/335i lineup for the E90, then the 328i sedan will be $32,000 at most and the 335i sedan will probably start at no more than ~$38,000, which likewise means that the E92 equivalents will be less than $2,000 more. Bank on it.

Increasing the price of the car just because content has been improved defeats the purpose of improving content in the first place - there's no gain in value to be had. If I'm a marketing analyst for BMWNA, I know that improving the car doesn't mean anything if you then price it out of the segment within which it was meant to compete in the first place. Why would you aggressively attack Lexus and Infiniti with a new engine lineup if you don't plan to do the same with your pricing structure?
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Last edited by akhbhaat; 04-29-2006 at 02:27 PM.
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  #33  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:11 PM
rprasad rprasad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Based on my 330i invoice before tax, the base price is ~us40K. So I take that the 330i price is $36K in USA, that means our dealer markup on the 330i is max.~10%.
Not saying you calculated the US price from nowhere; just saying that accounting for HK taxes and dealer markup is not sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Your argument about 335i is replacing 330i is very thin at this point of time. First, we only know there is a 335i E92, not 335i E90.
Agreed, but we are not "speculating" about the 335 sedan; we are just saying that some sources in BMWNA have mentioned a 335 sedan, and that statement has also been made by a couple of dealers; some members of this forum have posted their information in other threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Can we be 100% sure BMW wouldn't introduce a 330i E92 later?
Definitely a good point. But since the coupe is coming in the US as a 328 and a 335, it is unlikely that BMW will slot a 330 in the middle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntlaw
]I am not here to stuff $45K a 335i in anybody's mouth. Not until I see something solid, I am not convinced BMW will give potential 330i buyer a 310hp brand new turbo engine for 1K more
I understand; I'm not trying to stuff a 39K 335 down anyone's mouth either; your analysis has merits in that if BMW is planning on re-introducing the 330, and is targetting the 335 to compete with the CLK, then yes, a price of 45k makes sense. However, that means that the 335 does not compete in the same segment as the G35 and the IS350; BMW *does* care about <40K comparisons, because that's where most of its money comes from (in the US). So if the 328 is left alone in that segment, then BMW is in trouble.
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  #34  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:16 PM
rprasad rprasad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
What happens to the E92 is partially dependant upon what BMW does with the E90.
Very much so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
If the 325/330 lineup is to remain intact on the E90 side, BMW has more room to increase prices of the E92 and likely will. If not, there will be minimal increases across the board. If there's to be a 328i/335i lineup for the E90, then the 328i sedan will be $32,000 at most and the 335i sedan will probably start at no more than ~$38,000, which likewise means that the E92 equivalents will be less than $2,000 more. Bank on it.
This is the crux of the argument of <40K 335 supporters. BMW fundamentally CANNOT afford to move the 325/330 upmarket (and rebadge). Their primary source of income (in the US) comes from the two 3ers. Moving the price of the 328/335 upmarket will be a bad move. However, if the sedan lineup ends up being something like 325/330/335, then that definitely leaves room to price the 335 much higher than the 330. This is definitely a possibility, but sources in BMWNA are saying with confidence that the 330 will be replaced by the 335.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
Why would you aggressively attack Lexus and Infiniti with a new engine lineup if you don't plan to do the same with your pricing structure?
Hmmm. Unfortunately, some people still think that BMW does not "compete" with Infinity and Lexus; I don't know where they get that information from. Maybe it's the "snob" attitude that some BMW owners have? Like "Oh my god, I am so much better than an Infinity driver"?
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  #35  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:22 PM
SpinZero SpinZero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czachari
It probably won't be anywhere near the driving dynamics of a 3-series but it will probably blow the doors off a 328i in a straight line. Personally, I'd be upset if I got killed by a < $30K camry in my ~$40K 328i (with options). If you're ok with that, more power to you .


CZ
I hear what you're saying, but wasn't the E46 out-powered by the contemporary Accord and Altima as well?
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  #36  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinZero
I hear what you're saying, but wasn't the E46 out-powered by the contemporary Accord and Altima as well?
SpinZero is right on this point. The other cars have pretty much always been beating 325s & 328s in a straight line. Yet the new E90s, with what many
consider to be a minimal hp increase, still sell like crazy. What will allow this to continue? Keeping the price of the lower model affordable.
But that's all....BMW doesn't have to keep a 335's price that low to ensure the 3 Series position in the market.
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  #37  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:55 PM
rprasad rprasad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichReg
SpinZero is right on this point. The other cars have pretty much always been beating 325s & 328s in a straight line. Yet the new E90s, with what many
consider to be a minimal hp increase, still sell like crazy. What will allow this to continue? Keeping the price of the lower model affordable.
But that's all....BMW doesn't have to keep a 335's price that low to ensure the 3 Series position in the market.

Another good point. Man. This speculation is going to go on and on until they release the damn prices! And most of the arguments have been hashed out by now.
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  #38  
Old 04-29-2006, 05:24 PM
SpinZero SpinZero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichReg
SpinZero is right on this point. The other cars have pretty much always been beating 325s & 328s in a straight line. Yet the new E90s, with what many
consider to be a minimal hp increase, still sell like crazy. What will allow this to continue? Keeping the price of the lower model affordable.
But that's all....BMW doesn't have to keep a 335's price that low to ensure the 3 Series position in the market.
Actually my point was that family sedans, no matter how good they are, usually do not compete with the premium sports sedans.

BUT I didn't mean that BMW didn't have to worry about the competitions. What has clearly changed from the E46 days is that now we have the IS350, and after establishing itself firmly in the market with the first gen, the second gen G is likely to be a much more formidable opponent to the 3 series as well. Now these two cars are starting a serious HP war WITHIN the segment.
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rprasad
I understand; I'm not trying to stuff a 39K 335 down anyone's mouth either; your analysis has merits in that if BMW is planning on re-introducing the 330, and is targetting the 335 to compete with the CLK, then yes, a price of 45k makes sense. However, that means that the 335 does not compete in the same segment as the G35 and the IS350; BMW *does* care about <40K comparisons, because that's where most of its money comes from (in the US). So if the 328 is left alone in that segment, then BMW is in trouble.

IS350 and G35 were not and will not be anywhere near as a BMW competitor at least in Asia. Infiniti ihas been dead for more than a decade. People will not buy a Lexus unless it is cheaper than its MB and BMW equivalent.
Here IS250 may be a threat to 325i/328i if the IS are cheaper. IS350 should normally not be a threat to the 330i/335i as for reaching that amount money here (~us63K), for a near luxury car price, people will still buy a less powerful 330i than a Japanese brand car.
IS350 is historically a failure in Asia market except in some countries with ridiculus import tax for European cars e.g. Brunei, Singapore.

You and Spinzero made some points. and I am definitely aware of USA market is unqiue and can't disagree you guys logic.
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2006, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinZero

I didn't mean that BMW didn't have to worry about the competitions. What has clearly changed from the E46 days is that now we have the IS350, and after establishing itself firmly in the market with the first gen, the second gen G is likely to be a much more formidable opponent to the 3 series as well. Now these two cars are starting a serious HP war WITHIN the segment.
I agree, but to a lesser extent. Yes, we do have the IS350, and of course the upcoming replacement to the G35. But the IS350 is somewhat higher priced than was the last generation, and the IS250 is the volume seller. I also don't expect expect the new G35/G37 to be cheap either.

My only point is that BMW doesn't have to worry about 335 pricing as much as people are saying, especially since they sell TONS of the lower models.
It also wouldn't hurt Infiniti to introduce a lower model as well.
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  #41  
Old 04-30-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntlaw
E90 335i will be 45K
E90 M3 will be 68-70K
No way. Why price the M3 close to within $10K of the M5? Anybody with that kind of money will just decide to go for the 500bhp M5 instead, effectively neutralizing sales of the M3.
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  #42  
Old 04-30-2006, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czachari
That demolishes the 328i. Basically the low end bimmers are getting totally overpowered by MUCH cheaper japanese cars. New study shows that in the US Lexus overtook BMW in prestige ratings among affluent buyers.


CZ
You know i can seriously believe this. I dont know how it is in other regions but in my family circle they consider Lexus to be more prestige then BMW and Merecedez being more prestiege then Lexus and BMW. I know my uncles who have incomes of 1.5k+ a year bought either a lexus, mecedez and/or porches. One of my uncles bought a 545 and dumped it in 2months for lexus GS. My dad's point of view is also that lexus is more presitege then bmw unless you are in your 20's (then BMW suits u better).

All in all, reason why im going to buy a 2004 BMW M3 or a 2007 E92 is for the drive
And if BMW wants to go more "upscale" with the coupe and price it for 45-47k, then i think it is a mistake A 3 series is only a entry-luxury car which will produce 300hp/270 torque ish. Lexus IS is 306hp/ (i forgot the torque). If Lexus is even close on the quarter mile time and the BMW E92 is 45-47k, does the 10k difference will justify the handling experience?
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  #43  
Old 04-30-2006, 06:36 PM
SpinZero SpinZero is offline
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For me the only reason that the idea of an under $40K 335i doesn't sit too well is simply because then it'll no doubt be the best value in its segment. It's not only 300HP, but also 300TQ plus the possibility of easy mod. All that for less than 40K makes it such a great value in ANY segment that, at least to me, it's very un-BMW-like. Hasn't the overpriced-ness become the core BMW value a long time ago?
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  #44  
Old 04-30-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinZero
For me the only reason that the idea of an under $40K 335i doesn't sit too well is simply because then it'll no doubt be the best value in its segment. It's not only 300HP, but also 300TQ plus the possibility of easy mod. All that for less than 40K makes it such a great value in ANY segment that, at least to me, it's very un-BMW-like. Hasn't the overpriced-ness become the core BMW value a long time ago?
That is exactly how I am thinking about it now. At first I looked at it as a 330 replacement. Taken as that it would be normal for them to raise the price but keep it under $40k. But the more I hear about that engine I don't think it will be that way. I mean from a perfomance point of view alone, consider the STI and EVO, cars costing up to $34 because they offer so much performance. With the 335 you surpass that performance and perhaps even performance potential, then think about all the standard features and the prestige factor added to that. Does it make sense that you would get all that for around 6 grand more then an EVO? The level of performance the 335 brings to the table and the fact that nothing is ever inexpensive when it comes to BMW, I don't see the car being under $40k.
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  #45  
Old 04-30-2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aija
All in all, reason why im going to buy a 2004 BMW M3 or a 2007 E92 is for the drive
And if BMW wants to go more "upscale" with the coupe and price it for 45-47k, then i think it is a mistake A 3 series is only a entry-luxury car which will produce 300hp/270 torque ish. Lexus IS is 306hp/ (i forgot the torque). If Lexus is even close on the quarter mile time and the BMW E92 is 45-47k, does the 10k difference will justify the handling experience?
The 335 will produce more then 270 ish torque, it will produce 300 ft. lbs. and that peak will be at an almost unheard of 1400 rpms all the way to 5000. In the torque department the IS350 peak 277@ 4800 doesn't compete too well. On the Lexus boards I have heard them say even the current 330i feels like it has more torque, and that is only 220 @ 2750.

The 330i already wins mag comparisons against the IS350 and it is more expensive feature for feature by a decent amount. The 335 will be in a different league. Most people don't understand this because they just see the cars on paper. Drive the IS350 and you won't think so highly of it, and then you'll understand how the 335 would be worth close to 10 grand more.

And everyone is acting like $42-43k is so much money to start the 335 at because it will price it so far out of the segment. At that price go conservative on the options and it could be had for $44-46k. How many 330s end up costing as much or more then that with a lot of options now? Hell loaded up even the 325 costs that much. Priceing it higher then $40k isn't going to stop people from buying it, they are already spending that kind of money.
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  #46  
Old 04-30-2006, 11:34 PM
rprasad rprasad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrel Revok
And everyone is acting like $42-43k is so much money to start the 335 at because it will price it so far out of the segment. At that price go conservative on the options and it could be had for $44-46k. How many 330s end up costing as much or more then that with a lot of options now? Hell loaded up even the 325 costs that much. Priceing it higher then $40k isn't going to stop people from buying it, they are already spending that kind of money.
There's a difference between "loaded" and "base". A loaded 330/325 comes to the mid 40s. Ok. Great. That means, that by your estimate, a loaded 335 will be over 50k. Probably 55k.

Ok. So, assuming that the rumors out of BMWNA regarding the replacement of the 330 are true, you are saying that BMW is going to send the 330-replacement 10 THOUSAND dollars north? Man. What *are* you guys smoking?
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  #47  
Old 05-01-2006, 03:12 AM
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I paid a little over 41k for my 03 330i loaded with most everything except nav. Sticker was over 44k.
If this things turns out to be based a little over 40 and loaded stickers for 46-48 and I can get into one for around 45, I'll be happy. I'll be paying a few thousand more than I did 4 years ago and getting a substantial increase in performance. Loaded with everything except nav., anything less than about 48 will seem pretty reasonable to me.
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  #48  
Old 05-01-2006, 05:17 AM
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cntlaw cntlaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrel Revok
The 335 will produce more then 270 ish torque, it will produce 300 ft. lbs. and that peak will be at an almost unheard of 1400 rpms all the way to 5000. In the torque department the IS350 peak 277@ 4800 doesn't compete too well. On the Lexus boards I have heard them say even the current 330i feels like it has more torque, and that is only 220 @ 2750.

The 330i already wins mag comparisons against the IS350 and it is more expensive feature for feature by a decent amount. The 335 will be in a different league. Most people don't understand this because they just see the cars on paper. Drive the IS350 and you won't think so highly of it, and then you'll understand how the 335 would be worth close to 10 grand more.

And everyone is acting like $42-43k is so much money to start the 335 at because it will price it so far out of the segment. At that price go conservative on the options and it could be had for $44-46k. How many 330s end up costing as much or more then that with a lot of options now? Hell loaded up even the 325 costs that much. Priceing it higher then $40k isn't going to stop people from buying it, they are already spending that kind of money.
I 100% agree to ALL YOUR POINTS. (People screwed me for saying the 335i is over 40K)
Absolutely correct about 330i torque , it is felt much more than paper!
335i is definitely entering the Porsche territiories, people should be glad to own one for just 45K.
I thought some of us are proud to own expensive Euro cars like Benz, BMW, why we want the European car price lower than the Japanese car ? If BMW is cheap, will we still want to own one?
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  #49  
Old 05-01-2006, 09:10 AM
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ase2dais ase2dais is offline
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It really amazing how much serious analysis is used on speculation, at the end of the day, bottomline its still everyones guess!
My US price guess?
$39-42k, starting price.

Last edited by ase2dais; 05-01-2006 at 09:12 AM.
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  #50  
Old 05-01-2006, 10:26 AM
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Darrel Revok Darrel Revok is offline
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Mein Auto: 06 330xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by rprasad
There's a difference between "loaded" and "base". A loaded 330/325 comes to the mid 40s. Ok. Great. That means, that by your estimate, a loaded 335 will be over 50k. Probably 55k.

Ok. So, assuming that the rumors out of BMWNA regarding the replacement of the 330 are true, you are saying that BMW is going to send the 330-replacement 10 THOUSAND dollars north? Man. What *are* you guys smoking?
I don't know where you get this 10 THOUSAND dollars north idea, not based on what I said. If the base is $42k then that is still only $5400 more then a 330i base.

A fully loaded 330 can cost $51,500 sticker. So how big of deal would it be if a 335 cost $55k.

I know your bummed out about getting a 328 in the fall, but try to clear your mind and think before you post.
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Last edited by Darrel Revok; 05-01-2006 at 10:29 AM.
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