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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 01-17-2014, 07:08 AM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Mechatronics/Transmission Replacement. Help Needed

Hi Guys,

My transmission started to fail, missing gears, getting the "Transmission Failure" in the dash and the car is basically undriveable.

I can see a lot of transmission oil in the transmission pan, engine/transmission cover and all over. So I guess the tranny ran out of oil. I can even smell burning oil coming from under the car when hot and also a bit of smoke. The engine is perfect, the engine oil is perfect as well, its just transmission oil.

I want to replace the transmission, I found a used one for a good price with low miles. I already ordered the oil pan/filter and oil and all that for the new-to-me transmission.

My question is:

1. Can I use the mechatronics unit coming with the new-to-me transmission or I have to keep my old mechatronics? Basically, can a used Mechatronics be coded to another car?
2. Do this transmissions need coding? I have INPA and certainly know how to use it but this won't be enough to code a new or used mechatronics.
3. What is the chance my mechatronics unit has failed since my tranny ran low on oil?


Thanks in advance for your help.

Last edited by orlandobimmer; 04-19-2014 at 07:53 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-17-2014, 09:00 AM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orlandobimmer View Post
Hi Guys,

I recently purchased a 2007 550i with 84k miles in the ODO.

The car was great for the first couple of weeks and it is in certainly brilliant shape. But the transmission started to fail, missing gears, getting the "Transmission Failure" in the dash and the car is basically undriveable.

I can see a lot of transmission oil in the transmission pan, engine/transmission cover and all over. So I guess the tranny ran out of oil. I can even smell burning oil coming from under the car when hot and also a bit of smoke. The engine is perfect, the engine oil is perfect as well, its just transmission oil.

I want to replace the transmission, I found a used one for a good price with low miles. I already ordered the oil pan/filter and oil and all that for the new-to-me transmission.

My question is:

1. Can I use the mechatronics unit coming with the new-to-me transmission or I have to keep my old mechatronics? Basically, can a used Mechatronics be coded to another car?
2. Do this transmissions need coding? I have INPA and certainly know how to use it but this won't be enough to code a new or used mechatronics.
3. What is the chance my mechatronics unit has failed since my tranny ran low on oil?


Thanks in advance for your help.
First, all may not be lost with the transmission you have. If you can do the work, replace the pan gasket and sealing sleeve and then refill the transmission with fluid, reset the adaptation and test it. Or if you can't do the work have it towed to an independent shop that can do it for you.

These transmissions are actually fairly rugged and you may be pleasantly surprised to find it that after the transmission has new fluid and the adaptation has been reset that the transmission is alive and kicking.

However, if the transmission is toast here are answers to questions above.

1. You will keep the mechatronic unit that comes with the new transmission. The transmission or mechatronic unit is not coded to a specific car.

2. The memory in the transmission control module is "blanked out" so that the mechanical parts of the transmission and the electronic control of the mechatronic solenoids adapt to each other, and your style of driving, for proper flow of fluid through the system.

3. It is hard to know what damage occurred based upon low fluid. The mechanical parts tend to take the worst beating without lubrication.
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  #3  
Old 01-17-2014, 12:11 PM
cool_dude_208 cool_dude_208 is offline
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I think you should also replace transmission adapter(heard from indy that this is what causes gears to slip ) and sealing sleeve.
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  #4  
Old 01-17-2014, 02:04 PM
pcy pcy is offline
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Originally Posted by cool_dude_208 View Post
I think you should also replace transmission adapter(heard from indy that this is what causes gears to slip ) and sealing sleeve.

He probably meant 'trans adaptations'.
that's done via INPA (or similar software).
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  #5  
Old 01-17-2014, 02:31 PM
cool_dude_208 cool_dude_208 is offline
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No. It's the adapter between transmission and mechatronics. It's like 2 cubes. Search for part # 24347588724.
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  #6  
Old 01-17-2014, 03:07 PM
pcy pcy is offline
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got it.
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  #7  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:41 PM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Ok, I will do all that tomorrow, I would only lose oil so I'm gonna give it a try.

BTW, I posted the same thread on another forum and someone said that these mechatronics can't be reprogrammed and that I need a new one if replacing.

Anybody with a real world experience?
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2014, 09:44 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Originally Posted by orlandobimmer View Post
Ok, I will do all that tomorrow, I would only lose oil so I'm gonna give it a try.

BTW, I posted the same thread on another forum and someone said that these mechatronics can't be reprogrammed and that I need a new one if replacing.

Anybody with a real world experience?
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
As I told you in my previous post, the mechatronics unit IS NOT PROGRAMMED. It programs ITSELF. All you do when you reset the adaptation, which tells the transmission to begin measuring itself and "adapting" the flow of fluid through the solenoids, adjusting to the mechanical components of the transmission.

This page explains the adaption control.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ZF Trans Adaptive Pressure Control.pdf (107.5 KB, 316 views)
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2014, 06:11 AM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post
As I told you in my previous post, the mechatronics unit IS NOT PROGRAMMED. It programs ITSELF. All you do when you reset the adaptation, which tells the transmission to begin measuring itself and "adapting" the flow of fluid through the solenoids, adjusting to the mechanical components of the transmission.

This page explains the adaption control.
Nice pdf. Is the rest of the doc available to share? Thanks.
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2014, 08:30 AM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Nice pdf. Is the rest of the doc available to share? Thanks.
Sure bro!

It is a little dated, and ends with E39 applicability, but the basic operations are the same.
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  #11  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:23 AM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Sure bro!

It is a little dated, and ends with E39 applicability, but the basic operations are the same.
Yeah, a bit dated, but the theory hasn't changed at all and there's a lot of great data. Thanks.
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  #12  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:34 AM
Amherst Amherst is offline
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The mechatronics unit in the ZF transmission does have vehicle specific programming in it and a unit from another vehicle will have different behavior. See the replacement instructions in the attached pdf from ZF.

So keeping the original mechatronics that came with the car may be beneficial if it is still serviceable.
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File Type: pdf Mechtronics 6-speed replacement.pdf (511.9 KB, 237 views)
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2014, 02:20 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Originally Posted by Amherst View Post
The mechatronics unit in the ZF transmission does have vehicle specific programming in it and a unit from another vehicle will have different behavior. See the replacement instructions in the attached pdf from ZF.

So keeping the original mechatronics that came with the car may be beneficial if it is still serviceable.
Yeah I have seen that on the CTSC website.

When the talk about "vehicle specific" they mean BMW 550i vs Audi A6 vs Jaguar XJ.

The TCM needs to be flashed by the manufacturer of the vehicle to be able to communicate with that vehicle's ECM. The original poster was considering replacing the entire transmission with one from another 550i. In that case the TCM is already programmed to a 550i. If he reused his own then it is already programmed to a 550i

But I would agree, if he buys a brand new fresh off the shelf mechatronic unit, then he would be getting a blank TCM, and the TCM needs to be flashed before it would work.
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  #14  
Old 01-18-2014, 05:41 PM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Ok. So I get the point.

When ZF says it needs programming its because a BRAND NEW BLANK MECHATRONICS, needs to be told that it will work on a BMW 550i. The transmission is coming from a 550i also, so I guess I will just reset all errors and adaptations using INPA prior to start the car with the new-to-me transmission.

I also want to say thanks to all of you guys who posted your responses. This info will be very useful for more people in the near future.

So far, I replaced the oil today, put everything back together and the transmission keeps failing. Today using INPA I discovered that the issue is mechanical and its exactly when the car goes from 3rd gear to 4th gear. When that happens, the transmission slips badly and the car goes into safe mode, locking the transmission to 3rd gear.

When I stop the car and turn it back ON, I could go from 1st to 2nd and 3rd without issues, but once it hits 4th, it dies. So I'm convinced we have a mechanical failure here.

At this point I'm unsure if using the mechatronics unit from the used transmission I'm buying will be my best bet or should I keep my current mechatronics. What would you guys do?

Also, need to mention that the oil that came out of my tranny smelled very bad, like burned, the smell was very bad. I'm not sure if it is normal or not.
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  #15  
Old 01-18-2014, 06:26 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orlandobimmer View Post
Ok. So I get the point.

When ZF says it needs programming its because a BRAND NEW BLANK MECHATRONICS, needs to be told that it will work on a BMW 550i. The transmission is coming from a 550i also, so I guess I will just reset all errors and adaptations using INPA prior to start the car with the new-to-me transmission.

I also want to say thanks to all of you guys who posted your responses. This info will be very useful for more people in the near future.

So far, I replaced the oil today, put everything back together and the transmission keeps failing. Today using INPA I discovered that the issue is mechanical and its exactly when the car goes from 3rd gear to 4th gear. When that happens, the transmission slips badly and the car goes into safe mode, locking the transmission to 3rd gear.

When I stop the car and turn it back ON, I could go from 1st to 2nd and 3rd without issues, but once it hits 4th, it dies. So I'm convinced we have a mechanical failure here.

At this point I'm unsure if using the mechatronics unit from the used transmission I'm buying will be my best bet or should I keep my current mechatronics. What would you guys do?

Also, need to mention that the oil that came out of my tranny smelled very bad, like burned, the smell was very bad. I'm not sure if it is normal or not.
Before you throw in the towel I would PM schpenxel, who did a rebuild on his mechatronic unit with new solenoids that are available separately from CTSC, and get his advise on the 3rd-4th slipping. He may know that a solenoid change will cure this.

I would also call CTSC directly and get their advise regarding whether they feel a solenoid replacement would cure your issue.

http://www.thectsc.com/

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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  #16  
Old 01-19-2014, 05:25 AM
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Last edited by banglenot; 01-19-2014 at 06:15 AM.
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2014, 06:14 AM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orlandobimmer View Post
Ok. So I get the point.

I replaced the oil today, put everything back together and the transmission keeps failing. Today using INPA I discovered that the issue is mechanical and its exactly when the car goes from 3rd gear to 4th gear. When that happens, the transmission slips badly and the car goes into safe mode, locking the transmission to 3rd gear.
It's possible that this is an actuator(s) failing; but the note below is disturbing. Actuators are unlikely to cause the oil to break down or stink.

Quote:
Also, need to mention that the oil that came out of my tranny smelled very bad, like burned, the smell was very bad. I'm not sure if it is normal or not.
At this point you need a pro to diagnose it. There are many things you can access and fix in the mechatronics; but if rotary mechanical parts are failing it might be a deep dive into the turbine/clutches system. That's a completely different level of expertise.

CTSC (Kurt, I think) might be able to give you some guidance. Call him.

Last I heard, a factory reman from ZF is +/- $3K. BMW uses only remans for warranty replacements, so don't let them talk you into a new one (if it gets to that).
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Last edited by banglenot; 01-19-2014 at 06:19 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2014, 07:58 AM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
It's possible that this is an actuator(s) failing; but the note below is disturbing. Actuators are unlikely to cause the oil to break down or stink.



At this point you need a pro to diagnose it. There are many things you can access and fix in the mechatronics; but if rotary mechanical parts are failing it might be a deep dive into the turbine/clutches system. That's a completely different level of expertise.

CTSC (Kurt, I think) might be able to give you some guidance. Call him.

Last I heard, a factory reman from ZF is +/- $3K. BMW uses only remans for warranty replacements, so don't let them talk you into a new one (if it gets to that).

That's the issue, I don't want a Pro to take the transmission apart just to see what's wrong with it. That will increase the repair cost a lot.
I spoke to a shop here in Orlando and they say they cold repair whatever is wrong with the transmission and rebuild it "Starting in" 1.8k. We live in the US, you'll guys know what "Starting in" means. He said that if there's a selenoid issue then it would double the price and that it depends on how many gears or components they need to replace in the tranny.

The factory remanufactured from ZF is 5k, that's the best I found. So right now, what I would like to do is take advantage from a low miles transmission I found which is tested to work perfectly, replace the oil pan, sleeve, adapter and oil and have a fresh transmission in my car for less than 2k installed. That in the case I could actually use the mechatronics coming in that transmission. So my intrigue is if it will actually work fine with a mechatronics from a different car, same year/model, but different vin.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:32 AM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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I can't recall the error messages right now, but a few of them are:

4F87
4F86
4F89
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  #20  
Old 01-19-2014, 08:34 AM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Back to the Smell topic. The oil smell was like:

Did you ever had a computer power supply burned? Well, if you had one, that's the oil smell.
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  #21  
Old 01-19-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by orlandobimmer View Post
That's the issue, I don't want a Pro to take the transmission apart just to see what's wrong with it. That will increase the repair cost a lot.
I spoke to a shop here in Orlando and they say they cold repair whatever is wrong with the transmission and rebuild it "Starting in" 1.8k. We live in the US, you'll guys know what "Starting in" means. He said that if there's a selenoid issue then it would double the price and that it depends on how many gears or components they need to replace in the tranny.

The factory remanufactured from ZF is 5k, that's the best I found. So right now, what I would like to do is take advantage from a low miles transmission I found which is tested to work perfectly, replace the oil pan, sleeve, adapter and oil and have a fresh transmission in my car for less than 2k installed. That in the case I could actually use the mechatronics coming in that transmission. So my intrigue is if it will actually work fine with a mechatronics from a different car, same year/model, but different vin.
Oddly, the solenoid is cheaper for you to do yourself-- as you know from ctsc's prices.

I think I understand your desire to swap in a mechatronics from another tranny. At least then you can make the decision whether to bite the bullet on a repair to the turbine parts, or a DIY on the mechatronics and/or actuators.

The burning smell sounds like mechanicals, given the fact that you're getting codes, which implies the controller is OK.

BTW, I recall you have a DIY garage up near Orlando, if you need a lift, specialized tools etc.

In any case, call Kurt at CTSC tomorrow and you might get an unbiased expert opinion.
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Last edited by banglenot; 01-19-2014 at 09:18 AM.
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2014, 09:23 AM
orlandobimmer orlandobimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Oddly, the solenoid is cheaper for you to do yourself-- as you know from ctsc's prices.

I think I understand your desire to swap in a mechatronics from another tranny. At least then you can make the decision whether to bite the bullet on a repair to the turbine parts, or a DIY on the mechatronics and/or actuators.

The burning smell sounds like mechanicals, given the fact that you're getting codes, which implies the controller is OK.

BTW, I recall you have a DIY garage up near Orlando, if you need a lift, specialized tools etc.

In any case, call Kurt at CTSC tomorrow and you might get an unbiased expert opinion.
I sent CTSC an email, I can't find their phone number anywhere.

As for the DIY shop, they no longer offer the service due to insurance problems. I'm looking for a place where I could do this myself. I have plenty of tools but I need a lift.

My plan right now is to install the transmission as it comes, replace filter, adapter, sleeve and oil and put it in the car. fill the 1st portion of oil and see how it goes. If I get errors due to a different mechatronics being used, I will put my old mechatronics back in the car with the newer transmission. If it still fails to work properly, I will order a set of selenoids from CTSC and fix my mechatronics, I don't know if I could use the selenoids from the newer transmission I got...
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2014, 12:08 PM
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I am so subscribed to this one. My 05 545i has the same issues in the trans as yours, with the exceptions of different codes and no strong burnt smell. I have same shifting as you described and changed pan, fluid, mech sleeve with all ZF parts. I cleared adaptations through DIS and also with INPA. I have an error for 3-4 shift. There were more tranny codes, but this one is staying. I was planning on pulling the mech out and changing the solenoids. I'm lucky to have a ZF authorized shop near me who stocks parts. I will bring him the solenoids to test and replace if needed, but if that doesn't help, I will have to go with used low mile gearbox. Good luck and PLEASE keep us posted with this.

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  #24  
Old 01-19-2014, 12:10 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quite a bit of wrong info in here. I thought I responded earlier but can't find it

Will post more later.

Edit: the transmission computer (EGS) is codes to a specific VIN. You cannot just swap it

You can swap the old computer in while leaving the rest of the mechatronics and solenoids though no problem.

EGS computers can be reprogrammed to a new VIN supposedly. I've never done it

Last edited by schpenxel; 01-19-2014 at 12:12 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2014, 01:25 PM
Amherst Amherst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post

Edit: the transmission computer (EGS) is codes to a specific VIN. You cannot just swap it

You can swap the old computer in while leaving the rest of the mechatronics and solenoids though no problem.

EGS computers can be reprogrammed to a new VIN supposedly. I've never done it

This is how I understood the workings of this transmission when reading up on it as schpenxel states. When buying a new mechtronics unit the serial number of the car must be given to the supplier so the unit can be programmed accordingly.

Another difference that may be found between one unit and another is the separator plate used in the mechatronics there are around half a dozen different versions with different sized holes. They make a difference in transmission behavior also.
I would venture a guess that transmissions used in the same type vehicle should use the same plate. The plate number can be found on a tab that sticks out of the middle of the mechatronics unit.
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