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  #1  
Old 11-12-2002, 07:20 AM
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Spiderm0n Spiderm0n is offline
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Post Car Warranty Hypochondriacs

The Best Car Deal Around: Never Paying for Repairs

By JANE SPENCER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Rachel Corey, a 42-year-old Manhattan free-lance writer, has named her BMW 'Esmeralda' -- and Esmeralda is spared no indulgence.

When the car was under warranty, Ms. Corey asked the dealer to replace an interior panel for an eraser-size scratch, she demanded a new soft-top because of a six-inch smudge, and she had them fix a "minor whistling" sound that occurred only at speeds above 50 with the windows down. She had her drink holder replaced twice, even though the only liquid she allows in the car is a solution for wiping off bird droppings.

"Okay, so I'm anal," says Ms. Corey, who swerves to avoid grass clippings.

Mechanics have another term for customers like Ms. Cory: warranty hypochondriacs. And they are seeing more of them these days.

On top of incentives like 0% financing, car makers are finding another way to sweeten the deals: longer and more comprehensive warranties. Hyundai launched the trend with a 10-year warranty, and rivals are now racing to follow suit. In July, DaimlerChrysler introduced seven-year, 70,000-mile powertrain warranties, four years longer than before. And Ford just lengthened the warranty for its new Ford Focus from three years to five years.

In the luxury market, car makers are competing to add extra services. Volkswagen's Audi and DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes now cover all scheduled maintenance costs, from replacement wiper blades to 24-hour roadside assistance, and Toyota Motor's Lexus guarantees free loaner cars. With October car sales tumbling to their slowest pace in four years, some experts expect warranties to get even more generous.

The lengthy contracts are designed to distinguish brands in a crowded market. But they are also prompting many customers to screech into the repair lot for every squeak, rattle and scratch. The complaints range from "oversensitive seat belt locks" to intermittent thumping noises that occur only when the customer drives over railroad tracks at high speeds.

"Sometimes we have to fix the customer, not the car," says Steve Gorogias, service manager at Chevy Chase Buick/Hyundai in Maryland.

Richard Simonds brought his Mercedes to a dealer twice because of a "squeak" under the driver's seat that no one else in his family could hear. He eventually had the dealer install new seat tracks which involved disconnecting the car's wiring. Mr. Simonds has also brought the car in five times because of a "rough shift" between first and second gear that occurs only at speeds between 18 and 24 miles per hour. "Instead of going mmmmm, it goes rrrrrr," he says. His mechanic can't hear it -- but that doesn't satisfy Mr. Simonds. "If they can't fix it, I want them to replace the transmission," he says.

The emerging hypochondria is particularly acute among luxury-car drivers, where entitlement and paranoia converge. At British Motor Cars in San Francisco, some customers don't even bother to come up with a specific problem. "They say 'I'm going out of town. Why don't you drive it for a while and fix whatever's wrong,'" says service adviser Jennifer Smith. She stopped listing her home phone number after too many customers tracked her down (one even interrupted her pec workout at the gym) to discuss their cars.

For years, standard warranties hovered around three years or 36,000 miles, whichever came first, and covered only manufacturing defects. But the warranty arms race has increased customer expectations and led to more gray areas for dealers. One example of a murky claim: an obese customer who complained his seat wore out prematurely. (The dealer eventually covered it.)

The Domino Effect

Such demands trigger a domino chain of negotiations. Customers appeal to the dealers, who in turn appeal to the manufacturer to be reimbursed for parts and labor. It is important to get the dealer on your side since they may be more generous than manufacturers. They don't want to lose loyal customers over a warranty tiff. Indeed, dealers will occasionally absorb the cost of the repair after a rejection. A small percentage of dealer warranty work is "good will" coverage, which isn't reimbursed by the manufacturer.

But pestering a dealer too much can backfire. David Himes of Shoreline, Wash., demanded that a dealer repaint his $25,000 BMW Z3, which he has named Maximillian, because highway sand left tiny pock marks in his paint job after several years of driving. The dealer called it "normal wear." After several heated discussions with the general manager, Mr. Himes was formally banned from the dealership. Now, when he calls for service, the scheduler tells him he is "flagged in the computer" and can't have an appointment. "I guess I should have been more diplomatic," says Mr. Himes.

Overall, the cost of providing warranties is actually declining for many car makers because of improvements in vehicle quality. For General Motors and Ford Motor, the average warranty cost per vehicle is roughly $1,000, down from $1,600 in the early 1990s, according to estimates by J&L Warranty Pros. But plush amenities like roadside assistance and free maintenance are undercutting those savings for car makers. Extending warranty length also raises the costs: Analysts estimate DaimlerChrysler will spend an additional $400 for each vehicle on its new seven-year warranty.

Warranty costs are also rising fast in one area: those sophisticated computer systems that clutter dashboards with blinking lights and warning signals. Current Volvo S60 modules are fitted with 26 censors that prompt six levels of warning messages, ranging from the mildly unsettling "FIX NEXT SERVICE" to the more hysterical "STOP SAFELY ASAP."

Not only are these systems prone to bugs, but the constant monitoring can add up to information overload for paranoid drivers. On many vehicles something as minor as a loose gas gap can set off the "check engine" light. Ms. Corey rushed Esmeralda back to the dealer nearly a dozen times over an overactive air-bag light.

There are limits of course to even the most generous warranties. Hyundai's warranty isn't transferable to a second buyer unless they are immediate family. Chrysler's new seven-year warranties include a $100 deductible on any repair after the first three years. And having repairs done anywhere but the dealer can void some warranties.

A Sympathetic Ear

Some dealers have other strategies for dealing with difficult customers. "We take them in a private office, and start some small talk," says Gene Beauchemin of New Country Motor Cars in Hartford, Conn. "You ask about their kids. You're empathetic to their concern about the car, whether it's valid or not." He says some problems vanish after such conversations.

Alan Entin, a clinical psychologist in Richmond, Va., says people who make heavy warranty demands may be seeking parental attention from their mechanics. "It's 'Take care of me. You're bigger, you're stronger, you can make all thing right in the world if you fix my car,' " he says. "The warranty represents approval or fixing from their daddy."

And no matter how accommodating the dealer, some problems can never be fixed. "Some customers need an exorcist, not a technician," says Mr. Gorogias, the Buick Hyundai dealer.
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2002, 07:26 AM
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Re: Car Warranty Hypochondriacs

Quote:
Originally posted by Spiderm0n
Alan Entin, a clinical psychologist in Richmond, Va., says people who make heavy warranty demands may be seeking parental attention from their mechanics. "It's 'Take care of me. You're bigger, you're stronger, you can make all thing right in the world if you fix my car,' " he says. "The warranty represents approval or fixing from their daddy."
No. I just want the f*cking airbag light turned off for good, dammit.

(I say this as my wife's E36's airbag light came on yesterday for the, no exaggeration, 7th time.)
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2002, 07:45 AM
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Re: Car Warranty Hypochondriacs

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Originally posted by Spiderm0n

"Sometimes we have to fix the customer, not the car," says Steve Gorogias, service manager at Chevy Chase Buick/Hyundai in Maryland.


As it happened 15 years ago this is totally unfair, but...

It's a long story, but my parents bought my mother's first Buick (shudder) at Chevy Chase Buick in 1986. It was an 86 Electra T-Type (and as far as the brand goes, it wasn't *that* bad of a car for the mid 80s). They bought it in June of 86. By December 1987 they had replaced the transmission three times and rebuilt each of them twice. If my parents had any sense at the time, they would have pursued a lemon buy back. When the car was on its second transmission, my mother brought it in complaining that it wouldn't shift past second gear. I went to pick it up after it was "fixed." Pulled out onto the street and turned around at the first intersection to go back. It wouldn't leave first gear.
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  #4  
Old 11-12-2002, 10:59 AM
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Has anyone owned a car that actually had warrenty work done... under a extented powertrain warranty.
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2002, 12:32 PM
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"and she had them fix a "minor whistling" sound that occurred only at speeds above 50 with the windows down. "

Did they ask her not to drive nekkid anymore? Oops, sorry, this is a family BBS...
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2002, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ripsnort
"and she had them fix a "minor whistling" sound that occurred only at speeds above 50 with the windows down. "

Did they ask her not to drive nekkid anymore? Oops, sorry, this is a family BBS...
that's bad...
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2002, 05:26 PM
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Re: Car Warranty Hypochondriacs

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Originally posted by Spiderm0n
"It's 'Take care of me.
Forget the psycho-babble, I'd wager few $$$ that a large majority of these folks are Liberals.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2002, 08:09 PM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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i agree with ObD.

there is this sense of entitlement from a lot of people that you spend greater than the national average for a car and that means it has to be X factor greater than the average car, e.g. ford taurus/chevy impala, and if it's not perfect, well shucks. you just spent $8-10k more and it damn well had better be.

unfortunately, BMW is a small company and puts that extra money into R&D, the engine, and then the rest of car.

hard to explain that, and to pre-lower people's expectations of perfection. it's not a quantum better necessarily and what you're paying for is intangible.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:46 AM
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Exclamation Wrong information

Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·


As it happened 15 years ago this is totally unfair, but...

It's a long story, but my parents bought my mother's first Buick (shudder) at Chevy Chase Buick in 1986. It was an 86 Electra T-Type (and as far as the brand goes, it wasn't *that* bad of a car for the mid 80s). They bought it in June of 86. By December 1987 they had replaced the transmission three times and rebuilt each of them twice. If my parents had any sense at the time, they would have pursued a lemon buy back. When the car was on its second transmission, my mother brought it in complaining that it wouldn't shift past second gear. I went to pick it up after it was "fixed." Pulled out onto the street and turned around at the first intersection to go back. It wouldn't leave first gear.
Chevy Chase Buick Opened for business in March of 1994. This would make it very difficult for this story to be true.
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2005, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by goro6968
Chevy Chase Buick Opened for business in March of 1994. This would make it very difficult for this story to be true.
goro6968 = Steve Gorogias as quoted in the article?

Your right...After checking my father, it looks like I misspoke about the dealership name. It was Schulman Buick on Wisconsin, which no longer exists. That Chevy Chase Chevyland is still right by there probably clouded my memory of the dalership name. My apologies.
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  #11  
Old 01-07-2005, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by goro6968
Chevy Chase Buick Opened for business in March of 1994. This would make it very difficult for this story to be true.
Damn! The Thought Police are quick today...

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  #12  
Old 01-07-2005, 09:31 AM
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Forget the psycho-babble, I'd wager few $$$ that a large majority of these folks are Liberals.

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  #13  
Old 01-07-2005, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdawg
there is this sense of entitlement from a lot of people that you spend greater than the national average for a car and that means it has to be X factor greater than the average car, e.g. ford taurus/chevy impala, and if it's not perfect, well shucks. you just spent $8-10k more and it damn well had better be.

unfortunately, BMW is a small company and puts that extra money into R&D, the engine, and then the rest of car.

hard to explain that, and to pre-lower people's expectations of perfection. it's not a quantum better necessarily and what you're paying for is intangible.
That's part of the reason I always try to steer people away from BMW/German makes. Most people I know have owned Japanese cars and when we begin looking they fall in love with the fit and feel of german makes. I make it a point to remind them the car will not be as reliable or as well put together as their hondas/toyotas/etc.

Several haven't listened and then they grumble when their BMW's tranny craps out after 15k miles or their Audi needs a new computer after 10k miles.

I don't bother taking my BMW in for warranty work. It's not worth the hassle. The rattles, the flukey tranny, the oversensitive DSC, the sputtering engine...just part of leasing a German car. shrug. I learned that with my Jetta. The 330i's been just as bad. Next car will be Japanese again.
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  #14  
Old 01-07-2005, 09:47 AM
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bren bren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artslinger
Has anyone owned a car that actually had warrenty work done... under a extented powertrain warranty.
Yes. Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Front Axle x2
Rear Axle x3
Tranny x2
Transfer Case
Intake gasket

And several other non-powertrain things like the steering box x2

And no I'm not a hypochondriac.

Last edited by bren; 01-07-2005 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bren
Yes. Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Front Axle x2
Rear Axle x3
Tranny x2
Transfer Case
Intake gasket

And several other non-powertrain things like the steering box x2

And no I'm not a hypochondriac.
Okay besides on a Jeep Grand Cherokee...
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  #16  
Old 01-07-2005, 10:50 AM
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I don't think that I need to explain again how many times my 330i was in the shop for the stalling issue. Each time, zero resolution.
Was this the random-stalling-as-you-drive-down-the-road stalling? My 325Ci had that, and a software upgrade took care of it... unfortunately, the software upgrade wiped out some other tweak that was made to the car, so now it often stumbles away from a light... we are still working that issue (I even upgraded my software twice, most recently to 39.2 to take care of it... no dice... )

Oh yeah, and they did not initially offer a software upgrade to take care of the problem; I had to demand it... I don't consider myself a hypochondriac (although my dealer would probably disagree)... As my mother always says, you have to be an "activated patient" to get things done!
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2005, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ff
It's like everyone has to pay for the antics of the warranty hypochondriacs. Service dept's just automatically have their shields up, and seem to assume that any request is insignificant. At least this is the case with BMW dealers.

I don't think that I need to explain again how many times my 330i was in the shop for the stalling issue. Each time, zero resolution. I'm sure they thought I was a warranty hypochondriac.
This is very true. There is a fine distinction between small but real problems and small but imagined problems. Often, non-enthusiast drivers who are mainly hyper-aware techie consumers will not make that distinction.
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2005, 02:50 PM
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My ex was one with our E-30 ix (And believe me, there was a lot that could go wrong with that car). Every little squeak, whistle, thump, you name it and it went back to the dealer. But they fixed everything without a whimper and it worked out well in the long run because 2 or 3 Bimmers later I'm definately on a first name basis with just about everybody at the store. She's in an Audi now and I'm sure there are happier times at Baron BMW.
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by blueguydotcom
That's part of the reason I always try to steer people away from BMW/German makes. Most people I know have owned Japanese cars and when we begin looking they fall in love with the fit and feel of german makes. I make it a point to remind them the car will not be as reliable or as well put together as their hondas/toyotas/etc.

Several haven't listened and then they grumble when their BMW's tranny craps out after 15k miles or their Audi needs a new computer after 10k miles.

I don't bother taking my BMW in for warranty work. It's not worth the hassle. The rattles, the flukey tranny, the oversensitive DSC, the sputtering engine...just part of leasing a German car. shrug. I learned that with my Jetta. The 330i's been just as bad. Next car will be Japanese again.
You know, the funny thing is, according to the JD Power surveys the Japanese cars have as many or in some cases MORE problems than other cars. BUT it is the way they handle those problems that gets them the high ratings.

Honda used to lead the JD Power because of nice waiting rooms, color TV and free, fresh coffee. The cars were actually less reliable. It was just more pleasant when they broke.
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2005, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObD
Forget the psycho-babble, I'd wager few $$$ that a large majority of these folks are Liberals.
Rachel Corey sure ain't.
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
You know, the funny thing is, according to the JD Power surveys the Japanese cars have as many or in some cases MORE problems than other cars. BUT it is the way they handle those problems that gets them the high ratings.

Honda used to lead the JD Power because of nice waiting rooms, color TV and free, fresh coffee. The cars were actually less reliable. It was just more pleasant when they broke.
Uh, are you kidding? JD Power shows Lexus leads everybody with fewer than 100 problems per 100 cars. The link below shows the IQS of honda and toyota (including their luxury makes) scoring at least 10% higher than BMW. That's obscene, in my opinion.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2004037
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:20 AM
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I am talking historically. In the height of the Honda/Acrua/other Japanese cars reliability scam, their actual reliability was the same or less than others.

And you have to put it in context of the original post. Nobody tracks how many are real problems and how many are ones like thoe mentioned.

It is always funny talking to Japanese car owners about reliability. They will defend the reliablity to the hilt, by saying things like,"it is a very reliable car, it has only beeen towed 3 times." True comment.

I am sure that the BMW number are hurt by some of the problem with the M3s, but when you are at the cutting edge of performance in their class, you can expect some things to have problems. Diffs, rod bearings, etc.
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:52 AM
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Talking

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Current Volvo S60 modules are fitted with 26 censors that prompt six levels of warning messages,
hmmmm... that settles it. I'm not buying a car that restricts what I can and cannot say! This is America, goldurnit!!

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  #24  
Old 01-10-2005, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Artslinger
Okay besides on a Jeep Grand Cherokee...
Ok, my personal experiences (not complete, just last two Chryslers):

Dodge Ram:
Transmission x2
Rear axle seals x2
Catalytic converter (although this I think is under emisson warranty.)

Dodge Shadow:
Cylinder Head x2
complete short block
Transmission

Perhaps you should have said "besides a Chrysler product." Small wonder why I changed brand loyality.
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:46 AM
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hmmmm... that settles it. I'm not buying a car that restricts what I can and cannot say! This is America, goldurnit!!


You beat me to it.
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