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  #1  
Old 06-30-2006, 02:15 PM
gkunzelman gkunzelman is offline
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Holdback/Flooring Cost

I am not exactly familiar with how a holdback/floor cost works to the benefit of a dealership, but be that as it may - anyone know if there is a holdback/floor cost built in to or earned on the confidential wholesale pricing such that even if a dealership faciliated a ED sale at the wholesale price plus the $695 destination and handling fee - the dealer would be making profit? All they are really doing is entering the order - no skin off their nose????

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 06-30-2006, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkunzelman
All they are really doing is entering the order
Yes, that's all we're doing. And we still expect to make a profit on that.
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Old 06-30-2006, 02:52 PM
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Yes, that's all we're doing. And we still expect to make a profit on that.

Which is why, understanably, most dealers expect customers to pay somewhat over teh wholesale price, allowing for at least that much profit on the sale.

Fortunately for dealers, their costs are lower on ED because there's nothing out of the allocation (the opportunity cost) and no "holding"/inventory cost. Of course, the processing costs still are there.
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Old 06-30-2006, 03:51 PM
gkunzelman gkunzelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanning machine
Which is why, understanably, most dealers expect customers to pay somewhat over teh wholesale price, allowing for at least that much profit on the sale.

Fortunately for dealers, their costs are lower on ED because there's nothing out of the allocation (the opportunity cost) and no "holding"/inventory cost. Of course, the processing costs still are there.

I I thought that was the point - that the invoice price has an amount built into to for such cost - so that if a dealer immediately sells a car they make that amount of money (holdback/flooring cost - which is otherwise paid for in the price of the car). So if the car is held in inventory for a sufficient period of time a dealer earns? that money and thereafter begins to lose money because they aren't moving the car. If I am ordering the car the dealer is not incurring that cost and as such it is pure profit which I will gladly give them for pushing a few buttons on a keyboard, and if there is no such thing then I would give them money over and above the wholesale price for their facilitating the transaction. But, to give them free money and then pay a premium for doing what little they will be doing ??????
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Old 06-30-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkunzelman
I I thought that was the point - that the invoice price has an amount built into to for such cost - so that if a dealer immediately sells a car they make that amount of money (holdback/flooring cost - which is otherwise paid for in the price of the car). So if the car is held in inventory for a sufficient period of time a dealer earns? that money and thereafter begins to lose money because they aren't moving the car. If I am ordering the car the dealer is not incurring that cost and as such it is pure profit which I will gladly give them for pushing a few buttons on a keyboard, and if there is no such thing then I would give them money over and above the wholesale price for their facilitating the transaction. But, to give them free money and then pay a premium for doing what little they will be doing ??????
BMW does not have traditional holdback, and they have absolutely nothing on ED cars... that is why they are not from dealer allocation and that is why the price is cheaper.
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Old 06-30-2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkunzelman
I I thought that was the point - that the invoice price has an amount built into to for such cost - so that if a dealer immediately sells a car they make that amount of money (holdback/flooring cost - which is otherwise paid for in the price of the car). So if the car is held in inventory for a sufficient period of time a dealer earns? that money and thereafter begins to lose money because they aren't moving the car. If I am ordering the car the dealer is not incurring that cost and as such it is pure profit which I will gladly give them for pushing a few buttons on a keyboard, and if there is no such thing then I would give them money over and above the wholesale price for their facilitating the transaction. But, to give them free money and then pay a premium for doing what little they will be doing ??????
What's your point? The dealership doesn't have to pay the salesman a commission? They don't have utility and lease costs each month? They don't have to pay the salary of the receptionist?
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2006, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jspira
What's your point? The dealership doesn't have to pay the salesman a commission? They don't have utility and lease costs each month? They don't have to pay the salary of the receptionist?


The dealer is in business after all and certainly deserves a fair profit of the deal no matter where it comes from.

Cheers
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Old 07-01-2006, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by X3 Skier


The dealer is in business after all and certainly deserves a fair profit of the deal no matter where it comes from.

Cheers
Apparently, Mr Kunzelman, who drives a 1994 Lexus, begs to differ.
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2006, 03:53 PM
LDV330i LDV330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNY
Apparently, Mr Kunzelman, who drives a 1994 Lexus, begs to differ.
So if he only expects to pay for the actual labor for entering data he should expect no response from the dealer when when calls to ask why he still does not have a production number, a delivery date, when the car has left port, how long will it be when the car leaves VPC, or takes delivery and cleans his car when it gets back to the dealer.

I hope he doesn't go to McDonald's and tell them their Quarter Pound meal is overpriced because it includes their overhead and profit and not just the cost of the raw food.
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanning machine
Of course, the processing costs still are there.
And that nagging thing they call overhead.
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2006, 05:28 PM
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Probably the last we will ever hear from Mr Kunzelman.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2006, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jspira
Probably the last we will ever hear from Mr Kunzelman.
One can only hope.
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2006, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iversonm
And that nagging thing they call overhead.


Ah, if only we could get business to give up that selfish practice of including overhead and profit in their prices things would be so much simpler. Prices would be much lower and we would not need to worry about things like BMWs or roads or jobs. Just think how much simpler things would be...or has that notion already been tried and gave us such wonders as the Yugo?
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott3


Ah, if only we could get business to give up that selfish practice of including overhead and profit in their prices things would be so much simpler. Prices would be much lower and we would not need to worry about things like BMWs or roads or jobs. Just think how much simpler things would be...or has that notion already been tried and gave us such wonders as the Yugo?



This thread just keeps on getting better and better.
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott3


Ah, if only we could get business to give up that selfish practice of including overhead and profit in their prices things would be so much simpler. Prices would be much lower and we would not need to worry about things like BMWs or roads or jobs. Just think how much simpler things would be...or has that notion already been tried and gave us such wonders as the Yugo?
I agree but I'm not sure that DeLorean's goal with the Yugo was to forgo profit - I think it was to forgo quality.
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:11 AM
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Boy, we are a tough crowd here...

Not wanting to get flamed, but I think this fellow is used to buying cars 'the American way'. i.e. where you can haggle down to a cost which is apparently below invoice. When you're done, you think you are a master haggler and could negotiate for the UN because you raped the dealer and got a steal, but the dealer still makes plenty $$$ in the holdbacks and sales volume incentives. I've seen it done. Anyone stepped into a volume Toyota dealership lately?

However, if he'd bothered to read all of the info available in this forum, he would have understood that it doesn't work that way on BMWs and also how to frame his negotiation. For not doing his homework, he deserves all the flames he got in this thread.
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2006, 01:35 PM
gkunzelman gkunzelman is offline
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Alas, if you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen - But, I can and a few flames here and there don't bother me at all. However, seems this is a tough crowd and more homework was needed before asking what I thought was a pretty simple question (may be that there are a few dealers in here that take offense at someone wanting to know a little bit about their holdback/flooring cost - if any). As I always say you'll never know if you don't ask - so I did - thanks for all your helpful insights. Hope you have a great day.
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  #18  
Old 07-10-2006, 02:18 PM
gkunzelman gkunzelman is offline
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A Little More Research Yields More Insight

Had some unanticipated time on my hands and did a little more research to learn some more on my own. So for anyone else that did not know much about Holdbacks (floorin costs) here is some information from Edmunds.com:

"Dealer Holdback

Many car buyers don't understand what the dealer holdback is, what it is used for and what its role is, if any, in the deal-making process. Let's try to clear up some of the confusion.

Dealer holdback is a percentage of either the MSRP or invoice price of a new vehicle (depending on the manufacturer) that is repaid to the dealer by the manufacturer. The holdback is designed to supplement the dealer's cash flow and indirectly reduce "variable sales expenses" (code words for sales commissions) by artificially elevating the dealership's paper cost.

Contrary to what some consumers think, the holdback itself can't really be used as a bargaining chip. However, knowing about it might help you get a better deal on a new car. How? Well, first here's a little background:

Dealerships must have an inventory on hand so that consumers can browse and ultimately select a vehicle. Dealerships must pay for this inventory when it is obtained from the manufacturer, and the amount it pays is the price reflected on the invoice from the manufacturer to the dealer, the so-called "invoice price."

Now the twist: with the introduction of holdbacks some years ago, most manufacturers inflated the invoice prices for every vehicle by a predetermined amount (2-3% of MSRP is typical). The dealer pays that inflated amount when it buys the car from the manufacturer. But later, at predetermined times (usually quarterly), the manufacturer reimburses the dealer for that excess amount. This is the "holdback," so named because funds are "held back" by the manufacturer and released only some time after the vehicle is invoiced to the dealership.

Why the sleight-of-hand you might ask? Because holdbacks can benefit dealers in three ways:
Dealerships borrow money to finance cars based on an invoiced amount that includes the holdback. So the higher the invoiced amount, the more the dealership can borrow from its lender.

Inflating the dealership's "cost" can have the effect of increasing profit, since sales personnel are paid commissions based on the "gross profit" of each sale. Holdbacks have the effect of lowering the gross profit and thus the sales commissions.

Holdbacks enable dealerships to advertise "invoice price" sales and sell their vehicles at or near invoice and still make hundreds of dollars on the transaction.

This holdback amount is "invisible" to the consumer because it does not appear as an itemized fee on the window sticker. For example, let's say you're interested in a Chevrolet with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $20,500, including optional equipment and a $500 destination charge. Let's also say that dealer invoice on this hypothetical Chevy is $18,000. The cost of the car includes a dealer holdback that, in the case of all Chevy vehicles, amounts to 3% of the MSRP, or $600. (Note that the $500 destination charge should not be included when computing the holdback.) So, on this particular Chevy, the true dealer cost is actually $17,400. Even if the dealer sells you the car for the invoice price, which is unlikely, he would still be making as much as $600 on the deal (when his quarterly check from GM arrives).

Dealer holdback allows dealers to advertise attractive sales. Often, ads promise that your new car will cost you just "$1 over/under invoice!"

Almost all dealerships consider holdback money "sacred" and are unwilling to share any portion of it with the consumer. Don't push the issue. Your best strategy is to avoid mentioning the holdback during negotiations. Mention holdback only if the dealer gives you some song-and-dance about not making any money on the proposed deal when you know that isn't true.

However, there are many other holdback-types of dealer credits, such as flooring assistance, wholesale credits, advertising credits, etc. In addition, the dealer stands to reap further benefits if there is "dealer cash" being offered by the manufacturer on the car you are considering. In many instances you can learn about dealer cash in our Incentives and Rebates section. However, unless you know all of these other fees (and who does?), establishing the dealer's true cost can be frustratingly elusive. It's for this reason that Edmunds.com has established True Market Value pricing that accurately reflects "what others are paying" by taking into account all of these fees. The Edmunds.com True Market Value Price is the "bottom line" and what you really need to know in order to negotiate a fair deal. Check it out at: http://www.edmunds.com/tmv/new/.

In summary, holdback is nice to know, but is just one small piece of a complex puzzle.

Domestic manufacturers (Ford, General Motors and the Chrysler half of DaimlerChrysler) generally offer dealers a holdback equaling 3% of the total sticker price ( MSRP) of the car. Foreign manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen etc.) provide varying holdback amounts that are equal to a percentage of total MSRP, base MSRP, total invoice or base invoice, as indicated in the list below.


Make Holdback
Acura 3% of the Base MSRP
Audi No holdback
BMW No holdback
. . . "

In the end: while it is valuable information to have in calculating a true invoice cost to a Dealer (and thus, the Dealers are making money even at invoice for those to which it applies): all one has to know with regard to BMW is that it doesn't apply - which all that need be said. Thanks for your time - next time I'll know to look to Edmunds first! Have a nice day
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkunzelman
all one has to know with regard to BMW is that it doesn't apply - which all that need be said.
check post #5
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:02 PM
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check post #5
His flameproof goggles prevented him from being able to read/see the information provided.
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:32 PM
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Dealers making profit over ED orders?

My local dealer refuse to do ED under ED MSRP price. He said there are just way too much paperworks and too much follow up to do, too many things can go wrong (passport, date change,..etc)... Sounds like there is a lack of motivation ($$$).

My GUESS is that dealer makes $ (nominal) on ED purchase but the CA MIGHT NOT get any or little commission...Therefore there needs to be incentive for CA to take on such task. And I would imaging there are some many things to coordinate for ED to be smooth..

I would pay someone to make sure my ED is smooth..
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epoints
My local dealer refuse to do ED under ED MSRP price. He said there are just way too much paperworks and too much follow up to do, too many things can go wrong (passport, date change,..etc)... Sounds like there is a lack of motivation ($$$).

My GUESS is that dealer makes $ (nominal) on ED purchase but the CA MIGHT NOT get any or little commission...Therefore there needs to be incentive for CA to take on such task. And I would imaging there are some many things to coordinate for ED to be smooth..

I would pay someone to make sure my ED is smooth..
The best appoach here is not to wonder about the dealer's motivation, but to get a new dealer. If you find a good one, you'll pay a fair price and get good service.
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkunzelman
Alas, if you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen - But, I can and a few flames here and there don't bother me at all. However, seems this is a tough crowd and more homework was needed before asking what I thought was a pretty simple question (may be that there are a few dealers in here that take offense at someone wanting to know a little bit about their holdback/flooring cost - if any). As I always say you'll never know if you don't ask - so I did - thanks for all your helpful insights. Hope you have a great day.
You might fish around for some of the threads discussing the economics of ED. You'll find that holdback, whether or not it exists, really doesn't come into play.

As a starting point for a good deal, I'd use Edmunds to find the TMV price in your area, subtract the ED discount, subtract the MACO fees, and negotiate from there.
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:01 PM
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Sounds all too familiar

I say if you "can't" do it, others will! Others with willingness and experience who do not think ED orders are troublesome just cuz they lack knowledge and/or exp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epoints
My local dealer refuse to do ED under ED MSRP price. He said there are just way too much paperworks and too much follow up to do, too many things can go wrong (passport, date change,..etc)...
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:05 PM
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maybe this will help.

BMW does NOT have traditional holdback, and they have absolutely nothing on ED cars... that is why they are not from dealer allocation and that is why the price is cheaper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LDV330i
His flameproof goggles prevented him from being able to read/see the information provided.
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