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E36 (1991 - 1999)
The E36 chassis 3-Series BMW was a huge hit among driving enthusiasts from the first moment the car hit the pavement. The E36 won numerous awards over the years it was produced and is still a favorite of many BMW enthusiasts to this day! -- View the E36 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 02-16-2015, 06:51 AM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Mein Auto: 1998 E36 318iS M44
1998 318iS M44 Crank - no start

hi guys,

I recently got my 1998 318iS M44 overhauled. Now the issue is it Cranks but doesn't start. When pushed it starts but can not idle. It has spark and fuel is coming to the rail. I have a technician coming to diagnose it tomorrow. will provide more info. Please Help.

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Gcee
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  #2  
Old 02-16-2015, 04:42 PM
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tim330i tim330i is online now
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Welcome to Bimmerfest! I've moved your question to the E36 3 series forum, you will get more help in here.

Tim
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2015, 05:28 PM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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your post makes no sense,....crank but no start, but then will start when push started??

that is usually an indication of a starter issue, which is a no crank concern, not a 'no start'.

so which is it??

when you turn the key, what happens??




df
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2015, 09:30 PM
Michael_e36 Michael_e36 is offline
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Thats pretty weird. Keep us updated
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  #5  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:14 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Mein Auto: 1998 E36 318iS M44
e36 318is Crank No start

Hi all,

I just had a scanner hooked up to my car and it pointed to a faulty Camshaft Position Sensor. I have ordered one and will update you as soon as I fit it

Thanks for you responses!!!
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  #6  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:40 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Mein Auto: 1998 E36 318iS M44
e36 318is Crank No start

But can a bad Camshaft Position Sensor cause a no start with the key and yet the car can start with a bump start?
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2015, 12:34 AM
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hornhospital hornhospital is offline
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No. The crank position sensor has to work for the engine to run. It may or may not run with a bad cam position sensor.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2015, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCEE View Post
But can a bad Camshaft Position Sensor cause a no start with the key and yet the car can start with a bump start?
no, but a faulty starter can create a no crank condition when turning the key over but able to be bump started.

if when you turn the key *nothing* happens, you do not have a "no start" condition, but rather a "no crank" condition.

a "no start" condition is when the engine turns over with the key (no bump start necessary) but fails to start up and run.


a faulty cam position sensor could cause a rough running condition once "bump" started, but again, if you are pushing the car to start it, you are looking at a primary issue (not starting with the key, most likely a faulty starter), *and* a secondary issue of running poorly (cam position sensor fault code). of which, the latter has no affect on a no crank condition.




df
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2015, 04:13 AM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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1998 318iS M44 Crank - no start

I do believe he is saying that the car turns over with the key, but doesn't start. It will start however if you push start it.

So yeah I suppose it could be what the code is putting out, but I think your right df... The car wouldn't run if the crank sensor was completely out/dead. Perhaps the timing has slipped? (This would suck, as I hate setting timing... All those stupid markings, and pulleys in the way, and stuff)

Anyhow I hope the sensor does it for you. If not test the cam sensor (can be done with continuity test) and if that's fine too, I would look into wether or not the timing is set right. You did recently have it overhauled, so I would say this is a big possibility. And as I always like the to preach... Computer codes are a guide at best, not the facts! You must look beyond the code most times.

In the end I am like Schultz... I know nothing!

Last edited by MsMuse; 02-18-2015 at 04:15 AM.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2015, 12:48 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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e36 318iS crank -no start

the car turns over with the key, but doesn't start. It will start however if it's pushed.

my mechanic has checked the valve timing and it's as described in the manual. The staerter cranks at what I think is normal speed and the battery was at 12.6 volts.

I went to check for spark and its getting to the plugs (plugs are new).

On the fuel side, I could hear the fuel pump humming. the fuel rail is pressurizing - maybe I need a pressure gauge.

Going back to the plugs, when I pulled them out, they were surprisingly dry - no sign of petrol whatsoever. I expected to them to be wet after all the cranking.

So guys, the challenge is still own.
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:15 PM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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Then yeah... I hope the position sensor solves your dilemma.
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2015, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCEE View Post
the car turns over with the key, but doesn't start. It will start however if it's pushed.
this makes no sense to me at all,.....

how can an engine crank with the key but not start, but start with a push start??


regardless, you need to see what drops out at the ignition switch when turned to the "start" position as opposed to the "run" position.

it could be something as simple as an ignition switch or a break in the circuit somewhere.....


still, it makes no sense to me....




df
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2015, 06:05 PM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivinfaster View Post
this makes no sense to me at all,.....


.....





still, it makes no sense to me....









df

^.^
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:26 AM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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I am puzzled as well. CAN low or no compression do this?
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:42 AM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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DF is right though... Look at the ignition switch make sure all looks right in there, otherwise it should start. If all this was caused by low compression then you got a lot bigger problems then not starting when you turn the key. Regardless it doesn't sound like your problem.

How does it run when it is running though? Is there any hesitation, roughness to the engine, or lack in throttle response. I'm thinking that maybe it could have something to do with not enough pressure being built up at the injectors.

Try having someone squirt a little starting fluid in the intake while you crank it over. If it kicks or starts then you have found your issue (fouled injectors, bad fuel pressure regulator, bad fuel pump, clogged fuel filter, or leaking fuel lines).

Also! Do you have a check engine light on?
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:51 AM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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In fact you should try that anyhow before ripping the steering column apart to look at the ignition. If you want to anyhow just take off the bottom, and you can see the ignition well enough. Get yourself some LPS electrical cleaner, and while your in there start hosing things down (electrical things). Of course disconnect the battery before you short something out. I know it's a big spaghetti bowl and nonsense down there, but all your looking for is... Well anything that doesn't look right.
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2015, 12:21 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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thanks guys for you suggestions, i will check things out on Saturday when I have more time. I am sure I will get to the bottom of this.

Regards
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  #18  
Old 02-21-2015, 09:25 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Greetings to you all!

I checked my igniton switch, wires under there - looks alright, So, after putting in a new cam sensor and still same condition, I decided to take it to another shop. Later, they called saying its a compression issue. Now they are gonna check to see if its the cylinder head or sub assembly. I will come back with their findings
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  #19  
Old 03-04-2015, 12:18 AM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Hi again,

I eventually decided to put in an import engine as we concluded that there was a compression problem. Now I have newer issues:

Engine is cranking - No spark & No fuel, even to the fuel rail.
Got the scanner and there are no fault codes.

Once again your help is needed
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  #20  
Old 03-04-2015, 04:26 AM
MsMuse MsMuse is offline
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How do you know it is getting no spark, and no fuel? And did you ever do a pressure test on the fuel pump, or a vacuum test on the FPR, or replace the fuel filter?

What was your compression (give us number) did you do a leak down test? Was it blowing bubbles into the radiator, or hissing out the intake, or crank, or exhaust? Did you try it with a little oil in the cylinders?

How do you know what the spark is doing, what method did you use to reach this conclusion? Did it get put back together right? I mean if it was working and now it's just not then is sounds like someone forgot a little wire somewhere.

Also where did you find this mechanic, so that I can put him on the do not call list. That might sound harsh, but if break down and give some schmuck my hard earned cash I want solid answers, no speculation, and above all some fracking results! And furthermore, (before I put up my soapbox) woes to the asshat who touches my Greta and leaves her worse off then she started!!!
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  #21  
Old 03-04-2015, 12:59 PM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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hi, MsMuse.

Thanks or your response.

The reason why I condemned the original engine is that when I bought the car, the where signs that the engine had been opened before. Also when the car failed to start using the key yet we had spark and fuel, we concluded it was compression that was bad hence the overhaul.

After that still the car did not start with the key. I found myself back where I started, if not worse.

I eventually decided to take out the original engine as there was a lot that had happened and then settled for a reconditioned one. I thought it was just a matter of cut and paste but after the installation the car cranks but doesn't run.

We realized that now there was no spark and that fuel was not being delivered to the rail.

I pulled out the HT lead and stuck in a plug and placed it a couple of mills from the engine block then cranked the engine and there was nothing.

I depressed the valve by the fuel rail and there wasn't even a drop that came out - as if the car just locked down or there is little wire left out like you say. Will do more checks on Sat.

Regards.
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  #22  
Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM
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I know you said you were going to replace the CAM position sensor, but did you ever test and/or replace the CRANK position sensor?

Look back at post #7 in the thread. The engine will usually run (poorly) with a bad cam position sensor, but it absolutely will not run with a bad crank position sensor. You'll get no fuel pump power, no spark and no injector pulse, precisely what you are experiencing. The ECU gets no signal from the crank position sensor, so it doesn't know the engine is turning, and won't activate the fuel pump, injectors or spark plugs.
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Quotes to live by:
guessing gets expensive...drivinfaster
nothing is more expensive than a cheap BMW...c4harpe13
buying a ratty example (of a BMW) is a parasitic relationship.(and you ain't the mosquito) 7pilot

Ken Kanne, Silverhill, AL, E36 Forum Mod/Craigslist addict/Hoarder of all sorts of stuff
BMW-CCA #441426
1995 318is "Bebe"; 1993 325is "Elvira" 1985 635CSi "Katja" 1984 633CSi "Sylvia"
HAVE I HAD MY MEDS YET?

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  #23  
Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM
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i don't know ken,...not sure if it is a lack of understanding/miscommunication between himself and the shop(s) he took the vehicle to, or if it is between himself and us, but whatever it is i have no idea how or why:

1, you could not start the vehicle with the key but push start it (without it being a starter or ignition switch/circuit related issue

2, low compression be "diagnosed" as the culprit (which would be present regardless of being pushed started or not)

3, the crank position sensor was overlooked but the cam position sensor was flagged (which would need to send the signal to the dme if started with the key or push started)

4, the cam position sensor was replaced anyway with no change led to #5

5, replace the engine??

and still not have it start....



no starts are probably the most basic of diagnosis done. the engine needs spark, fuel, and compression. since the engine management controls 2 of the 3, the basics begin as follows.

1, check to make sure the battery is fully charged

2, make sure the engine cranks at normal speed (too slow and you could have a heavy amp draw, too fast -as in sewing machine fast- could mean little or no compression)

3, check fuel pressure (actual gauge on the fuel rail reading, not a 'check to see if it squirts' test...) if no pressure, see #4, if within specs, see #5, if lower than spec, see #6)

4, check for power to the fuel pump (with a test light, not a dvom) if power is present, see #6. if no power is present, retest with the key to the crank position. if still not present, check and repair the circuit. then retest starting condition.

5, check fuel pulse at the injectors, check for spark, inspect sparkplugs for fouling. address any faults and retest starting condition

6, replace pump and fuel filter and retest starting condition




whatever, though.....you know what i say about guessing.





df
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  #24  
Old Today, 05:08 AM
GCEE GCEE is offline
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Thanks a lot

am going to perform the tests 2morrow and will update u by mon.
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