E39 Sound System Upgrade Advice Requested

I've done a number of E39 audio upgrades.

With the BMW E39 5-series, you have 5.25"/130mm speakers in the parcel shelf on DSP cars and in the rear doors on most non-DSP cars.

In the front, you have a 5.25"/130mm woofer in the door - inside a molded ABS sealed enclosure (rare in door speakers - more on this in a bit). You also have a 1.5" dome midrange (looks like a big tweeter) near the door handle, and a small (0.75"?) tweeter inboard of the side mirror.

In the back DSP cars have a molded sub enclsoure under the deck, venting through two small openings, with 5.25 nokia made woofers. Sounds like ass.

The BMW amplifier has 10 or 12 channels - front woofers, front mids/tweets, rear woofers, rear mids - and internally, each amplifier channel is filtered to only "push" the band of notes that the OEM speaker is supposed to play. This causes the upgrader a problem (as it does with all BMWs of this architecture, but yours is worse than the X5 and E46 cars). The BMW small dome mid plays an odd band of frequencies. Not only is it hard to find a speaker that plays that particular band of notes correctly, but it's darn near impossible to find one that will fit. The dome mids from Dynaudio, Morel, DLS, Hertz, Eclipse, etc., are too large to fit in the provided location. A tweeter can fit there (but not all of them : ) but then you wouldn't have any speaker playing the midrange notes, and those are the most important notes of all for humans due to how we hear.

Once the sound gets filtered through the OEM amplifier, it can't be readily re-combined without lowering the signal and running it through another amplifier - which is tortuous relative to simply replacing the amp.

Bavarian Soundworks sells aftermarket speaker kits and some instructions on how to bolt these midwoofers and tweeters into your car. They don't have a midrange replacement for the E39.

I believe pretty firmly that without an amp upgrade, you are only getting 1/2 to 2/3 of the sound quality your speakers could be capable of by performing such an upgrade. I do believe that that is a path that sounds better than stock to some degree.

One of the reasons that BMW uses the dome midrange is that they want to elevate the stereo image towards eye level. They also could have accomplished this with a more robust tweeter and a two-way architecture, but they were probably trying to make the system impossible to damage through misuse.

Two other aspects of the E39 to be aware of:

The door speakers are in those molded enclosures because BMW was trying to get more bass out of them. For years, a 5.25 speaker was the biggest speaker in many BMW models, and those can't play low notes with any kind of authority at all. When you put a speaker in a sealed enclosure, you allow it to be driven harder in the bass above a certain note, and you filter out bass below a certain note. (This is why sub enclsoure building is harder than it looks : ) If you are making a speaker intended for non-sealed use, it will probably have certain characteristics that don't fit well with small sealed enclosures - and this is what happens with many aftermarket speakers in the E39. The lower mids - especially make voices - sound congested and overemphasized, and the bass sounds thin. It's almost something that a home speaker driver should be used in, but then finding a matching tweeter can be an issue. Most car-specific 5.25 comp sets will have this problem.

When we do an E39, we are pretty careful about which speakers we use. Fitment is also an issue - many speakers won't fit. The tweeter has to be very flat and small in diameter if it's going into the OEM mirror-sail location - the Dynes don't fit and the DLS chambered tweeters don't fit either. The two sets I like the most at the moment are the Hertz HSK130 and the DLS UP5. With either speaker, best results are honestly obtained by using an amp with internal equalization and filtering - like the Zapco Digital Reference - to cut the mid notes a bit and boost the bass notes a bit, while filtering out the lowest notes that these 5.25 speakers won't play no matter what we do. The DC series amps have a USB plug on the side and a DSP chip on the input. You can fine-tune the sound for your car like you wouldn't believe - plug in your laptop, start the free SW app, change on the fly while listening, then save your settings in non-volatile memory. I usually believe firmly that picking the correct speakers obviates any kind of equalization. Your car is a special case.

The rear speakers don't help for bass either. The rear deck speakers are especially disappointing in this regard - most rear deck speakers use the trunk cavity below them as a speaker enclsoure, but BMW essentially made small cavities in the rear deck for the rear speakers, and they play mids and no bass. Honestly, I hate the rear deck speakers, and in general I feel that rear speakers are a Communist threat to our American way of life. The rear door speakers can sound so much better (or at least do far less harm, as the rear deck speakers really do a job on your stereo image and front stage, messing it up quite effectively).

I'm going to describe three levels of sonic upgrade.

Level one is to replace some speakers and leave the OEM amp. I'm not a fan of the results of this method in an E39, but it can be done. Personally, I'd probably rather you went to Bavarian Soundworks on this one.

Level two is to upgrade the fronts with a two-way component set and add an aftermarket amp. Since the rears don't help with sound quality, I'd leave them stock and apply the budget towards the fronts, getting the best fronts you can, before diluting your efforts with rear speakers and rear amp channels. This approach runs from $400 for a decent basic 50-watt-by-two-channel amplifier and decent components from DLS or avincar, to $600 with a similar-powered amplifier in the DC series and a set of Hertz separates, to $900 for a set of DLS UP5 components and a 100 watt-per-channel variant of the DC series. All those prices include basic, but quality, wire and cable. Installation at our shop runs about $350-400, and the amp is mounted underneath the rear deck (you can't see it without sticking your head into the trunk and looking up). So, installed, $750 to $1250, with $950 being smack in the middle.

Level three is to add a sub. BMW didn't give us any other way to get better bass. We can upgrade the sound in an X5 or an M3 without a sub and make it sound pretty darned decent, but the E39 doesn't help us out much on the speaker provisions. The sub we made for a 2003 530 has 10-inch woofer in a fiberglass molded enclosure. The carpet is pretty darned close to a perfect match, and it mounts to the battery door with a couple of removable screws. When in place, the door can be used to access the battery or the taillight bulbs, and the spare sub-floor sill lifts out just fine. The subwoofer speaker costs from $100 to $190, the enclosure is a good bit of shop time and adds up to $500 of time and materials, and the delta on the amplifier cost (you'd want a 4-channel amp to run the fronts and the sub) is between $150 and $400, depending on how much amplifier we pick. So, installed, $1500 to $2350, with $1900 being smack in the middle.


"But what about the rear speakers?"

If this is on your mind, try this for me. Take your fader setting all the way forward. Play some of your favorite CDs for a few days. Notice if you hear more details, especially location details for instruments, than you have noticed before. Most of our clients who try this test - in their factory system before upgrading - report that they are surprised at the level of information that was being lost when the rears were playing. Worst case, we do have some great point-source speakers for the rear - including the finest coaxials in the world, from Morel of Israel. These run from $150 to $400 the pair, plus a pair of amp channels to drive them, so that's usually another $150 to $300 at least. A good bit of cost that I'm loath to spend if we haven't gotten all we can out of the fronts yet.

Other than this I have no opinions...

WOW!

What an incredibly informative response post. Thanks for the information!

I have a few follow up questions:

The level 2 sounds like where I want to be for now (and maybe even level 3). With any of the options, do you fade out the rear speakers with the head unit or simply leave them there and functioning? If they are left, do they muddy up the sound, or only for the rear seat passengers?

I believe my car only has rear deck speakers (and tiny ones at that). The only speakers in the rear doors are either tweeters or mid-tweeters in a pod similar to the one in the front doors. I was unable to notice any mid or full range speakers in the rear doors. Would these speakers also need to be replaced or left functioning since we aren't worried about the rear soundstage?

Also, I am located in Southern California and don't have any road trips planned any time soon. How much of this work can I do myself? If I buy the stuff from you will you help me on the install or would I have to hire someone locally?

Thanks a million for your incredibly detailed response. This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Right now I have my fader set one click to the rear because it sounded a bit better (the front speakers didn't crap out as early when turning up the volume), but I will try dialing it all forward and see how that sounds.

:thumbup:

I tried running only the front speakers this past weekend and was only able to realize how bad the speakers are. It didn't really sound all too great and I ended up fading back in the rears to balance out the bad sound so it wasn't entirely in my face.

Considering they are a forum sponser and that I sent them a feedback request for info on their site (as opposed to the email listed earlier), I'm suprised Bavarian Soundwerk's hasn't offered up any info. My feedback requested info on additional stage upgrades that you might offer and/or any other packge deals you have other than simply speakers.

In addition to any other advice anyone can offer, I'd still like to follow up with Duderino so if you are online again any further help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone. :thumbup:

Thanks for the response and further clarification. I am pretty handy with taking stuff apart so long as I have instructions. I took apart the dash of my C32 to install the Cd changer and then again to run wires for iPod input.

I've been to La Jolla Audio (they are very close to home for me) and their prices were far and above anything I would consider. I have heard they do great work, but I'd rather save the money by doing it myself and take the family on a summer vacation with the leftovers.

I'll look around for some instructional stuff for taking apart the doors and rear deck of my car and then hit you up for a price quote on the materials. Thanks again for your help.

If anyone wants to point me in the right direction for taking apart the doors and rear deck I would greatly appreciate it. I do not have split or folding seats in the rear. Thanks!

put a pic of the door up, and I will post how to remove it.

we did 2 of them ,one about 2 weeks ago with nav like yours and the other about a month ago

on the one,
started out of the headunit into the Rockford fosgate 3sixty.2
then to a trio of Rockford fosgate T3002s amplifiers, 2 of the amps paired to a set of MB quart Q series 5 1/4" speakers front and back, and one to a 10" woofer, again Rockford fosgate power series T110D2
minor stuff added was a Deka intimidator battery and a farad cap

the other system was a bit more elaborate

video conversion with the alpine vhub 211 (basic)

Alpine DVD changer that he had and cd changer

alpine Ipod interface

alpine xm interface

alpine 5.1 processor

quart speakers (same as others)

rockford amps T4004 and T3002 on a 10 woofer

both sounded great, but the first set up was easier with the Rockford 360, which was the first one I used besides Rockford training.

The vehicle is pretty simple, unfortunately the placement of the door speakers aren't that great, you have the distraction of the midbass outputing on your leg.

So... why'd you use the 360?

They are the typical 530i doors I imagine but I'll post pics of the doors and the rear deck when I get a chance to take some. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend.

Thanks guys! :thumbup:

I didn't want the bullet points out of the brochure, I know what it does.

If I were putting that many titanium tweeters in a car, I guess I'd want an EQ too.

hmmm, i figured that is what you wanted to know, because i assumed that someone of your caliber (again an assumption) would know that the MB Quart crossover has a 0, -3, and -6 db tweeter settings.

But then again if it wasn't for Quart shipping at the 0 db level all the time, installers, salesman, and shop owners wouldn't know how to sell a silk dome tweeter. Let me geuss, you tell your clients that a titanium tweeter is too harsh?!? LMAO

Just to add an another opinion to this, I just completed my subwoofer install on my E39. I used the 12" deck mounted E39 kit from BSW. I was very pleased with the results. The sound is awesome and I didn't give up a lot of trunk space. Those were my 2 biggest concerns. I wasn't about to add a Basslink because I knew it wouldn't deliver the performance I was looking for and I still need a usable trunk. The deck mounted solution from BSW covered all of it! The install was pretty straight forward. Make sure you get the correct instructions, I got 2 sets of wrong ones but Miach was very apologetic. In the end I am very pleased and the sound is exactly what I was looking for.

Check out the pics on my site.

How much room is there between the bottom of the sub and the trunk floor?

11 inches

Thanks.

Thanks for the info and opinion bscarlett. I saw your posts in another thread and was watching them with interest. Thanks also for the photos. The 12" looks integrated but like it still takes up a fair amount of room. Maybe a 10" would be better for me - though that would only likely clear up another 2 inches. Hm... options, options!

Did the amp come with the sub or did you order that separately?

I think what el duderino was thinking, and myself included if he was, is that box looks like it takes up some serious trunk space, and that a basic installer could fabricate a 10" woofer in one of the side pannels with less space and superior results.

I know when i seen it, as a shop owner it would be hell trying to convince one of my BMW owners to throw that in there

what about doing something like this...?

It does look like that, but I just did groceries for a family of four and got them all in the trunk..even the diapers! The picture above actually takes up more of the trunk. I spent a lot of time taking to local installers and the general opinion was that these cars are so well insulated, to get any bass int he cabin, you will need a big woofer. I don't have the ski pass through, only the 2x4 inch cut outs on the rear parcel deck. For under $1,000 I don't think you can match the space and the sound.

well i have way more room than you think, trust me. it was a major concern for me to have as much trunk space as possible. i can fit my stuff for a long weekend and still have room left over. and the best part is whatever i put in the trunk doesnt affect the sound at all. i cut the rear deck a little bigger than the stock cut-outs for the factory subs and then made pieces from wood that fit around all the curves and angles on the deck lid and sealed it all up with silicone. it doesnt matter if the the trunk is open or closed, it doesnt affect the sound. plus nbody who has heard it believes that its only 2 10's... sealed.

BScarlett, yeah for under a $1k I wouldn't be able to touch it, $1500 would be like it. I'd do a 10" woofer where you have your amp and move the amp elsewhere, like under the rear deck.

Most likely a fiberglassed enclosure that is factory matched to the interior. on yours i have had a hard time getting the factory exact color from Veteran, but I think i would do what i do with the range rovers, get the floor cover, and steam it off, then add to the new enclosure

KSJ22, I can believe it (the sound) I have 2 10's in the 760 all rockford, and it sounds like 2-12" woofers in a hatchback. very impressive. However it is way too much for that class of vehicle, so were going to redo it in an aperiodic membrane , with the motor structure exposed using a 12" woofer. It has a simular set up as yours, however the trim panel is one piece left to right.

the other thing that ticked me off in that install was that I used Alcantara to match the headliner and do not like it, I should of went the flat black Alcantara. I just have to find time to do it, i have about a dozen install projects going on at once and work 7 days a week as it is.

This is an interesting thread. I have a question for the pros...

What is the best orientation for a sub in the BMW trunk? I have heard against the seat, firing towards the trunk opening is good. I have heard in the corner over the battery is good. I have seen installs (and had one in a former E39) that fired thru the arm rest into the cabin. It was not ideal for several reasons, none of which are an issue in my E46.

I'm on the verge of a redo in my E46 and would rather build the sealed enclosure once. I'm targeting a JL Audio 10w6 v2 because of it's musicality and small box requirement (0.69cf) but am unsure of how to install it. Fire thru the arm rest into the cabin? Fire it towards the back of the trunk? Or go for it and make a fiberglass enclosure to go over the battery.

Someone at E46Fanatics is doing a group buy on a 1.25cf fiberglass enclosure that goes over the battery (E46 coupe only), but it's just too big for my intended woofer, and too high dollar for me. I like a good DIY project anyway.

tia,

First off I want to apologize for no response to your email inquiries. Our email system was disabled for a bit and the forwarding system wasn't sending the emails to the correct places.

What el_duderino is saying is true, we tend to think a little more highly of our speaker upgrade packages but this is opinion.

It sounds like you're sort of on the fence in terms of what you need / want from the system. Give us a call and we'd be happy to help you pinpoint exactly what you need (what fits the budget, your needs, and installation requirements if you're doing this yourself). We'd love to talk.

Again, I apologize for the late response.

Thanks for the response Halston. I did end up following up with you all and got some information. I also visited a local shop which offered info directly opposite of what you and Duderino are saying. I thought it was a little odd so I'm going to post their proposal and see what you all think:

> Some sort of JVC (I think) control Unit to give RCA outputs from factory wires
> An Alpine amp to replace the factory amp and run the factory speakers
> An Alpine amp to run subwoofers
> A plain subwoofer enclosure against the rear of the seats
> 2 JL Audio subs

I asked them more than a couple of times about replacing the stock speakers and their response was that speakers were "dumb" and only passed the signal they received and that the muddy sound was from the factory amp which was only pushing around 8W per channel anyway. They said replacing the speakers would be a bigger job and that I'd get good sound from the setup they recommended above.

They said they did roughly the same install on a similar E39 recently and that it sounded great. I'm a little concerned since in my experience I have taken the same amp and replace speakers (home or car) and heard a world of difference. I'm not necessarily interest in spending money on a controller unit and amp just to run the same factory speakers. It seems a little odd to me.

Anyone have any thoughts on their recommendations? Thanks!

I think you went to the wrong place. Al and Ed's?

LMAO. Yeah, I thought the same thing when I was there and when the guy was telling me that the speakers didn't make a difference. They were a referral from a friend who had loads of work done on his Porsche (some crazy expensive model, not sure which). They're not a chain, but a (somewhat) local company.

I found the quote. Here are the numbers they wrote down:

LC-6 (the controller Unit I believe)
M-650 (the Alpine Amp for the sub)
F-250 (the Alpine Amp for the inside speakers)
2 x 10W1 (two JL Audio subs)
and a box.

It didn't really make sense to me and I asked em repeatedly if it wouldn't make more sense to upgrade the speakers. It was almost as if they didn't want to upgrade the speakers inside the cab. They kept saying it would be a pain or expensive or...? I dunno, it was weird. I wanted to see what you all thought.

I guess my next research step will be to stop by La Jolla Audio. It pains me to know that they totally know what they are doing but I just don't agree with their pricing. Maybe they'll surprise me or something. The price quotes they gave me certainly surprised me last time I was there (only not in a good way unfortunately).

Not a bad place to start...

Hello,
For what it's worth I went the route u were suggested in the early stages of my e39
conversion. I kept the stock speakers and added a zapco 1000.4 to power them, then
ran a zapco 500.1 to a jl audio 12w6. The sound was a huge improvement, very clear
and detailed with a huge bass hit form the sub. On the down side the sound was a bit bright
and got a bit hard to handle after long listening periods. I kept the set up for about a year
and eventually upgraded to morel and mq quart speakers. If you do go this route I would have the rear tweeter disconnected, it's the worst part of the stock speaker layout, in my case the tweeter was about 6 inches from my ear and gave me a huge headache at high volumes...good luck.