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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #26  
Old 09-29-2006, 09:45 AM
adc adc is offline
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I hate being the one who always questions things, but it's something I've wanted to get out ever since reading the first posts made by Shiv.

Generally reputable Audi and BMW tuners (or all of them?) have usually taken the route of upgrading the SW only. If there was actual HW involved, it was in the form of a new chip soldered onto the existing ECU motherboard. All the programming was done using the stock ECU, sensors and actuators and for all intents and purposes it was invisible to the dealer. The best ones used to upload the SW into the ECU, no soldering required.

Heck, some Audi tuners were able to use the OBC interface (steerig column stalk) to select between different "programs" on the chip: 93 octane, race gas, valet etc.

So I cannot but wonder why Shiv is using a piggyback computer for this. If nothing else, it will be highly visible to the dealer when they open the hood - and I am convinced some dealers will throw a tantrum when they see it...

I understand that part of the reason for choosing the piggyback is familiarity with the technology (from Evo and Subie etc.) but does this actually mean it's the best approach? If the answer is yes, I'd like to understand why.


All Vishnu fans and previous customers, please don't take my post the wrong way. I am very aware of the excellent reputation this company has built for itself over the past years, and I am also painfully aware that whatever Shiv has forgotten about tuning is way more than I'll ever know about it.

I'm simply a nosy SOB and need to understand the why's and the how's... again I'm not questioning the man or his motives, just begging for an explanation. I have followed his posts like a tight thriller, buttocks clenched, on the edge of my seat. If I buy a 335 it will be solely because of this tuning potential, so the more information the better...
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  #27  
Old 09-29-2006, 10:27 AM
Tommithy Tommithy is offline
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Shiv has actually posted his reasons about this. The main one being that if the software is updated on the ECU it will log that update and any dealer will be able to see it. By using an Xcede piggy back you can remove it in about 15 minutes and once removed the dealer wouldn't know that it was ever there.
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  #28  
Old 09-29-2006, 10:28 AM
tmon25 tmon25 is offline
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Is it possible to do it through OBD II port?
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Last edited by tmon25; 09-29-2006 at 10:31 AM.
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  #29  
Old 09-29-2006, 10:35 AM
canuck335i canuck335i is offline
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I would prefer a piggy back style to a chip on the stock computer no doubt about that.
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  #30  
Old 09-29-2006, 11:04 AM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommithy View Post
Shiv has actually posted his reasons about this. The main one being that if the software is updated on the ECU it will log that update and any dealer will be able to see it. By using an Xcede piggy back you can remove it in about 15 minutes and once removed the dealer wouldn't know that it was ever there.
I wonder if this is any different between the E46 cars and E9x cars. The way I understood it, for the E46 cars it would be undetectable by the dealer. The only drawback being of course that if the dealer uploads a new SW version into the car (for service bulletins, recalls etc.) then your program would be wiped out.

But with the Shark Injector (which works via the OBD port) you could always re-upload the aftermarket SW back into the ECU.
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  #31  
Old 09-29-2006, 11:05 AM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i View Post
I would prefer a piggy back style to a chip on the stock computer no doubt about that.
Why? (just curious).
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  #32  
Old 09-29-2006, 12:23 PM
focus4 focus4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i View Post
I would prefer a piggy back style to a chip on the stock computer no doubt about that.
Piggy back and reflashes each have there positves and negatives. However Piggy backs are usually trying to "trick" the stock computer into thinking different things, so there is sometimes hesitation while the two are fighting. In all fairness i don't know enough about the xede computer and how it operates. The positives of piggyback's is that the power is conistent since its always running the same "map" and also you can run external devices if the computer has the output for it. Piggybacks can't usually adjust however to changes in temperature and altitude which makes it hard to have one map to suite all conditions. I did hear once that the xede had a wideband and then automatically auto-tuned itself to correct this. It will be interesting to see what the final product will be like. IMHO for a lightly modded car I prefer a reflash, but either way its great to see some intial tuning done of the 335!
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  #33  
Old 09-29-2006, 12:25 PM
Kremlin Kremlin is offline
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Lookin good Shiv.

Will you support steptronic? And how loud is this exhaust? I'm looking for a fast easygoing daydriver and highway cruiser....
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  #34  
Old 09-29-2006, 12:34 PM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I hate being the one who always questions things, but it's something I've wanted to get out ever since reading the first posts made by Shiv.

Generally reputable Audi and BMW tuners (or all of them?) have usually taken the route of upgrading the SW only. If there was actual HW involved, it was in the form of a new chip soldered onto the existing ECU motherboard. All the programming was done using the stock ECU, sensors and actuators and for all intents and purposes it was invisible to the dealer. The best ones used to upload the SW into the ECU, no soldering required.

Heck, some Audi tuners were able to use the OBC interface (steerig column stalk) to select between different "programs" on the chip: 93 octane, race gas, valet etc.

So I cannot but wonder why Shiv is using a piggyback computer for this. If nothing else, it will be highly visible to the dealer when they open the hood - and I am convinced some dealers will throw a tantrum when they see it...

I understand that part of the reason for choosing the piggyback is familiarity with the technology (from Evo and Subie etc.) but does this actually mean it's the best approach? If the answer is yes, I'd like to understand why.


All Vishnu fans and previous customers, please don't take my post the wrong way. I am very aware of the excellent reputation this company has built for itself over the past years, and I am also painfully aware that whatever Shiv has forgotten about tuning is way more than I'll ever know about it.

I'm simply a nosy SOB and need to understand the why's and the how's... again I'm not questioning the man or his motives, just begging for an explanation. I have followed his posts like a tight thriller, buttocks clenched, on the edge of my seat. If I buy a 335 it will be solely because of this tuning potential, so the more information the better...
Basically, I firmly believe BMW is going to come down hard on warranty claims with respect to this car. It's going to be the sweetheart of tuners, good and bad, everywhere. This is going to really by an eye opener for BMW with respect to aftermarket bastardizations. There are always tell-tales (especially now) with respect to ECU reflashes. The only way to avoid this completely is to not modify the ECU. If basic maintenence info is stored in your key fob, just imagine what is stored in the ECU.

As for how the Xede conceptually works in the BMW application, here's something I wrote on another forum:

Boost Target: The factory ECU reads this by reading off a T-MAP sensor. The Xede intercepts that signal and adjusts it as a function of RPM and Load. Now the car sees a revised boost signal and dials the boost up or down to compensate. New targets are reached based upon the massaged T-MAP sensor response curve. ECU is happy. The stock ECU still controls all its atmospheric/temp/etc,. compensations.

Timing Changes: The factor ECU figures out when to fire the spark plug based upon crank position (in degrees) and a corresponding value in the timing map (function of engine load/T-MAP and RPM). We don't want to change the map in the ECU since that will be stored and logged. So we intercept the crank position sensor signal and shift it in time (either delay it or advance it). This time shift will make spark timing shift as well. The stock ECU does not know that we are doing this. And it is happy to go about doing what it suppsed to do. Furthermore, the stock knock control system still functions and ready to do its thing when conditions take a turn for the worse (bad tank of gas, super hot conditions, etc,.)

Fueling Changes: The stock computer delivers fuel based upon two things (actually more but these two are the major variables): The raw fuel map and AFR sensor signals. The raw fuel map looks at engine load/T-MAP (we we already modify.. hint hint) and RPM to determine where on the table the engine is operating at. At this point, it tells the fuel injectors to spit out X amount of fuel. Then it reads the data from constantly working wideband o2 sensors. The signals tell the computer if they need to add or subtract more fuel to achieve the desired AFR target. This constant feedback loop goes on and on and on. We dont want to change the actual mapping in the ECU. That would be evasive and easily loggable. Instead, the XEDE intercepts the wideband signals and adjusts them as a function of T-MAP and RPM. The new "adjusted" data is sent to the ECU and it makes the necessary enleanments/enrichments. The end result is that we get the fueling we want and the stock ECU is happy, thinking that it is doing its usual job. The stock ECU still controll all its long and short term adaptive fuel trims just like it would in a stock car.

Those are the basics. There's some other stuff invovled as well. But we can't disclose everything for obvious reasons For example, how do we make it so the closed loop fuel control corrections are instantaneous? Or why do we include a 3rd boost control solenoid to control boost? Or why do we recalibrate both MAP sensors and not just the one used to control fuel? The list goes on and on. But there are reasons for everything. I wouldn't want to mess up my own personal car, now would i?

Cheers,
shiv
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  #35  
Old 09-29-2006, 12:35 PM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kremlin View Post
Lookin good Shiv.

Will you support steptronic? And how loud is this exhaust? I'm looking for a fast easygoing daydriver and highway cruiser....

And yes, it will support steptronic since it does not alter the ECU, TCU, etc,. in any way, shape or form.

-shiv
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  #36  
Old 09-29-2006, 01:24 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Basically, I firmly believe BMW is going to come down hard on warranty claims with respect to this car. It's going to be the sweetheart of tuners, good and bad, everywhere. This is going to really by an eye opener for BMW with respect to aftermarket bastardizations. There are always tell-tales (especially now) with respect to ECU reflashes. The only way to avoid this completely is to not modify the ECU. If basic maintenence info is stored in your key fob, just imagine what is stored in the ECU.

As for how the Xede conceptually works in the BMW application, here's something I wrote on another forum:

Boost Target: The factory ECU reads this by reading off a T-MAP sensor. The Xede intercepts that signal and adjusts it as a function of RPM and Load. Now the car sees a revised boost signal and dials the boost up or down to compensate. New targets are reached based upon the massaged T-MAP sensor response curve. ECU is happy. The stock ECU still controls all its atmospheric/temp/etc,. compensations.

Timing Changes: The factor ECU figures out when to fire the spark plug based upon crank position (in degrees) and a corresponding value in the timing map (function of engine load/T-MAP and RPM). We don't want to change the map in the ECU since that will be stored and logged. So we intercept the crank position sensor signal and shift it in time (either delay it or advance it). This time shift will make spark timing shift as well. The stock ECU does not know that we are doing this. And it is happy to go about doing what it suppsed to do. Furthermore, the stock knock control system still functions and ready to do its thing when conditions take a turn for the worse (bad tank of gas, super hot conditions, etc,.)

Fueling Changes: The stock computer delivers fuel based upon two things (actually more but these two are the major variables): The raw fuel map and AFR sensor signals. The raw fuel map looks at engine load/T-MAP (we we already modify.. hint hint) and RPM to determine where on the table the engine is operating at. At this point, it tells the fuel injectors to spit out X amount of fuel. Then it reads the data from constantly working wideband o2 sensors. The signals tell the computer if they need to add or subtract more fuel to achieve the desired AFR target. This constant feedback loop goes on and on and on. We dont want to change the actual mapping in the ECU. That would be evasive and easily loggable. Instead, the XEDE intercepts the wideband signals and adjusts them as a function of T-MAP and RPM. The new "adjusted" data is sent to the ECU and it makes the necessary enleanments/enrichments. The end result is that we get the fueling we want and the stock ECU is happy, thinking that it is doing its usual job. The stock ECU still controll all its long and short term adaptive fuel trims just like it would in a stock car.

Those are the basics. There's some other stuff invovled as well. But we can't disclose everything for obvious reasons For example, how do we make it so the closed loop fuel control corrections are instantaneous? Or why do we include a 3rd boost control solenoid to control boost? Or why do we recalibrate both MAP sensors and not just the one used to control fuel? The list goes on and on. But there are reasons for everything. I wouldn't want to mess up my own personal car, now would i?

Cheers,
shiv

Aha! Aha! and Aha! (You actually lost me at some point but nobody needs to know that).

I appreciate your detailed explanation - which I was able o follow for the most part - and I appreciate your honesty and transparence. I am also thrilled that you did not take my post the wrong way...

All I can say is keep up the good work, and please let us know when you have a mid-Atlantic distributor so we can sample your toon.
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  #37  
Old 09-29-2006, 02:28 PM
MikeW MikeW is offline
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Shiv,

What's the physical installation going to be like? Where's you ECU going to live, how is it connected (and disconnected, and reconnected....)?

Thanks. This whole discussion has been very interesting.
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  #38  
Old 09-29-2006, 11:38 PM
hensta hensta is offline
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^ +1 what he said, and ultimately the question in mind is Can we do this modification without BMW having to void the warranty during a routine maintenance checkup?
You have some compelling evidence the "chip" modification works. What decides whether I buy the modification is whether I can eliminate all traces of chip modification easily by removing the device prior to taking it to the dealer. I'm familiar with the chip mod scene since the car prior to my G35 was a Wofsburg Jetta with the 1.8t engine with a GIAC chip installed just down the street from you guys over at Dynospot Racing. We're not talking about a $20k VW anymore though.

We have no proven track record on the durability of this new 3.0 TT therefore stealthy modification of it is of utmost importance. You mention "tell-tales" of ECU flashes being stored in the ECU but also mentioned your product uses a 3rd boost control solenoid. With stories of stock engines running hot, "exploding", etc you can see how the issue of stealth modification must be addressed. Oddly enough, your research and modification process just may be helping BMW sell more cars by compelling enthusiasts like us to buy their 335s. Keep up the good work...

Can you outline just how stealthy is this mod?

Last edited by hensta; 09-29-2006 at 11:42 PM.
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2006, 11:46 PM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensta View Post
Can you outline just how stealthy is this mod?
Outline how stealthy our implementation of the Xede is? Perfectly stealthy as far as I or any of the diagnostic tools available to me can tell. There is no logged parameter that stands out as being the result of aberrant performance. We've been doing this a pretty long time. And, to tell the truth, the 335i hasn't been the biggest challenge we've faced. The ECU is clever, don't get me wrong. But it's clever in the right ways.

-Shiv

PS. Dyno Video is up: http://media.putfile.com/shiv-dyno-335i

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 09-30-2006 at 12:00 AM.
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  #40  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:37 PM
hensta hensta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
Shiv,

What's the physical installation going to be like? Where's you ECU going to live, how is it connected (and disconnected, and reconnected....)?

Thanks. This whole discussion has been very interesting.
For those of us not familiar with your work, what is the physical installation?
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  #41  
Old 10-03-2006, 01:28 AM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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Awesome upgrade of power
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  #42  
Old 10-03-2006, 01:46 AM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensta View Post
For those of us not familiar with your work, what is the physical installation?
In the 335i, the Xede will sit right next to the ECU. There will be a few wires running between the ECU and the Xede. To see it, one would have to remove the engine cowl and the ECU container lid. Not viewable unless you look for it. But installation and removal shouldn't take much longer than 10 minutes once the ECU is exposed (which should take 5 min or so).

cheers,
shiv
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  #43  
Old 10-03-2006, 07:00 AM
Plan B Plan B is offline
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Shiv,

I was one of your Stage 0 "guinea pigs" back then with my first WRX. Have to admit, I've been following your thread with great interest.

You know, just when I thought I have decided on the Cayman S...you have to post something like this.

It's odd that I may end up going for the 335i because of your product. Keep up the great work!...I look forward to the comparisons with the 996 and EVO as referenced in your first post.
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  #44  
Old 10-03-2006, 07:53 AM
LBV LBV is offline
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Plan B said something I think a lot of manufacturers need to heed and that is the tunability of a car to modifications. I'd say that criteria alone is 1 of the top 3 in my shopping experience ... why I'm also looking at the '07 Subaru Legacy GT Spec B as a possible next car.
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  #45  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:28 AM
Sauceboy01 Sauceboy01 is offline
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Great Dyno Video!

Cant wait to see videos of this thing on the road.
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  #46  
Old 10-03-2006, 03:38 PM
Lil Gas Passer Lil Gas Passer is offline
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Shiv- Did I spot a Lotus Elise parked outside of your shop? Want to trade jobs for a few days?
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  #47  
Old 10-03-2006, 09:05 PM
bmwmex bmwmex is offline
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Keep The Good Work Vish ,,, What Will Be The Final Numbers ???
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  #48  
Old 10-04-2006, 06:45 AM
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stylinexpat stylinexpat is online now
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Hi there Vinsh,
do me a big favor please. I have been following al your posts here and am intrested in this very much. I have a Supercharged E46 now and am considering one of these new twin-turbos Can you please take the stock rear wheel off your car and weigh it? I am curious as to how much the stock wheels along with the tires weigh on that car for the front and rear. Yours are run-flats, correct?
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  #49  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:18 AM
canuck335i canuck335i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stylinexpat View Post
Hi there Vinsh,
do me a big favor please. I have been following al your posts here and am intrested in this very much. I have a Supercharged E46 now and am considering one of these new twin-turbos Can you please take the stock rear wheel off your car and weigh it? I am curious as to how much the stock wheels along with the tires weigh on that car for the front and rear. Yours are run-flats, correct?
19" model 230 top the scale at 54.4lbs including the RF tire (rear)
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  #50  
Old 10-08-2006, 10:43 PM
BoLaS BoLaS is offline
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motor DED?!

Hey Shiv how you been?
so ummm, since there hasn't been any updates to final software, and/or those race videos woth the porsche and so on..... ummm the motor didnt blow or anything... did it?
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