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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #51  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Aha! Aha! and Aha! (You actually lost me at some point but nobody needs to know that).

I appreciate your detailed explanation - which I was able o follow for the most part - and I appreciate your honesty and transparence. I am also thrilled that you did not take my post the wrong way...

All I can say is keep up the good work, and please let us know when you have a mid-Atlantic distributor so we can sample your toon.
That, imo, is the best thing about the Vishnu guys; completely transparency. I run my business the same way, and have always found it breeds confidence, which is it clearly doing in the case of shiv/vishnu's tuning. If you asked me 2 months ago when I ordered if I would consider putting an un-warrantied computer in my car I'd have laughed, and now I am all but certain I will be having watched these threads and listened to how shiv and crew approach their tuning.
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  #52  
Old 10-09-2006, 09:39 AM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Sorry for the lack of updates in the last few days. We just finished running the 24 Hours of LeMons (www.24hoursoflemons.com). We came in 6th place! And that was after losing 2 hours for repair after me getting stuffed head-on into a concrete wall (still sore! ) No, not the BMW. We raced a '88 Honda CRX. The Bimmer did make an awesome support/hospitality vehicle though. After racing piles all weekend, it sure was nice to drive home in it.

Back to business.... I just got a PM from a member informing me that there was a software revision to the DME which eliminated the cold start lumpiness that some people (including myself have noticed). I'm going to drop by the dealership tomorrow and see what is going on. If my car needs to get updated, I'll have to hit the dyno again to see what, if any, differences it makes to max power and, if necessary, retune accordingly.

Cheers,
shiv
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  #53  
Old 10-09-2006, 01:35 PM
BoLaS BoLaS is offline
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pheeeewwwwwwwwwww glad to hear your ok shiv!

im also glad to hear the to project is still on.... the only reason i even visit this forum is for your posts!!!

like i said before im one of those that is awaiting the end result of the toon' to see if this is the car i want... try and post some videos when u get a chance of the porche v. 335i thanks again for your input, u truley are a genius at work
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  #54  
Old 10-09-2006, 06:08 PM
335 Black/Red 335 Black/Red is offline
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Same....cant wait to c how the 335i transfers the new power in terms of performance numbers 0-60, qurter mile and etc and I bet that porsche video is gonna b one of the most viewed items on this site once its out. My questions r can we install this Xceed ourselves or do we have to run the car over? Does it have a warranty from u guys? What effects does it have on the life time of the engine? Whats ur estimate for the isolated whp of the Xceed with and without the xhaust upgrade that u did?
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  #55  
Old 10-11-2006, 07:15 AM
BoLaS BoLaS is offline
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bump....

any updates

bump for shiv
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  #56  
Old 10-11-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoLaS View Post
any updates

bump for shiv
I don't think he spends as much time reading Bimmerfest as some of us. As soon as his work is done you'll probably see another post from him. Until then, let it rest...
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  #57  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:28 AM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Video!

http://www.vishnutuning.com/Files/Vishnu%20BMW.mov

Note: The video was taken on the way to the 24hrs of LeMons endurance race on a flat road with 2 passengers, a trunk full of racing tools and a tank full of 91oct from Valero. So it's safe to say that it represents the lowest common denominator as far as performance goes

enjoy,
shiv
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  #58  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:42 AM
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sflgator sflgator is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
http://www.vishnutuning.com/Files/Vishnu%20BMW.mov

Note: The video was taken on the way to the 24hrs of LeMons endurance race on a flat road with 2 passengers, a trunk full of racing tools and a tank full of 91oct from Valero. So it's safe to say that it represents the lowest common denominator as far as performance goes

enjoy,
shiv
That thing sounds sweeeeet! Great job.
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  #59  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:49 AM
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MechElement MechElement is offline
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Did you modify your transmission or anything else in your drivetrain to compensate for the added HP and torque?
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  #60  
Old 10-12-2006, 11:08 AM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Originally Posted by MechElement View Post
Did you modify your transmission or anything else in your drivetrain to compensate for the added HP and torque?
No. Just the Xede and exhaust.

-shiv
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  #61  
Old 10-12-2006, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No. Just the Xede and exhaust.

-shiv
You have just reduced the lifespan of your drivetrain. Perhaps significantly.
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  #62  
Old 10-12-2006, 05:42 PM
brianlbailey brianlbailey is offline
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Originally Posted by MechElement View Post
You have just reduced the lifespan of your drivetrain. Perhaps significantly.
How so? Please elaborate as I do not have a clue about mods.
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  #63  
Old 10-12-2006, 05:48 PM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechElement View Post
You have just reduced the lifespan of your drivetrain. Perhaps significantly.
Torque to the wheels (and through the diff, axles, etc,.) in 4th gear will be equivalent to torque to the wheels in 3rd gear (in a stock car). Likewise, 3rd will be like a stock car's 2nd. And 2nd will be like 1st. And 1st? Well, that's the cool part. There is no more stress there since the tires light up in smoke instantly But yes, the individual gears in the transmission will see more stress than the would in a stock car. But if they are only designed with 25% overheaed, we'd be seeing a lot of failures already (from clutch dumping, power shifting, etc,.). Treat her right and I'd be amazed if we'd see any drivetrain failures, let alone premature wear-and-tear, in our car. The biggest fun ender here is detonation and the resultant burned piston. Keep that in check and the car should keep chugging right along. Just my opinion, of course.

-shiv
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  #64  
Old 10-12-2006, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by brianlbailey View Post
How so? Please elaborate as I do not have a clue about mods.
A vehicle is a machine, one which is designed to run as a system. BMW specifically designed and engineered a transmission and the remaining drive train to handle the power and torque the engine will deliver to it. When you boost your hp and torque a lot like vishnu did, you've gone beyond the engineered hp and torque BMW originally designed. Thus by doing so, you actually do decrease the lifespan of your drivetrain.

I honestly don't know much about independent suspension vehicles even though I bought one, but when modifying a vehicle as such, you want to redesign or upgrade your drivetrain to handle the new additional hp and torque. When I redesigned my vehicle with a 130hp & 150lbs-ft torque increase (not a BMW) I made sure the transmission would not be the weakest link by replacing it with a heavier duty transmission designed for those loads. I did the same thing with my axles, gears, drive shafts, u-joints and springs. I designed my system to have failure take place during high torque at the u-joint to avoid extreme damage to my transmission and drive shafts. U joints cost much less than driveshafts and transmissions. Simple.

Lots of guys and girls with those "ricers" do the same type of thing sort of. Those who actually trick their engines (NOS, turbo, cam, intake, header, etc.) neglect the transmission. A friend of mine did this to his Civic STi and puked the clutch very fast. After he installed one of those high performance clutches he puked his transmission. All of this took place within one year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Torque to the wheels (and through the diff, axles, etc,.) in 4th gear will be equivalent to torque to the wheels in 3rd gear (in a stock car). Likewise, 3rd will be like a stock car's 2nd. And 2nd will be like 1st. And 1st? Well, that's the cool part. There is no more stress there since the tires light up in smoke instantly But yes, the individual gears in the transmission will see more stress than the would in a stock car. But if they are only designed with 25% overheaed, we'd be seeing a lot of failures already (from clutch dumping, power shifting, etc,.). Treat her right and I'd be amazed if we'd see any drivetrain failures, let alone premature wear-and-tear, in our car. The biggest fun ender here is detonation and the resultant burned piston. Keep that in check and the car should keep chugging right along. Just my opinion, of course.

-shiv
So torque at the wheels is now a gear ahead of stock. Is this through acceleration? Why would you want a car that couldn't even launch? When you put some good rubber on those rims that actually sticks to the pavement in 1st, I think something will break. BTW, there is more stress there in 1st gear even though your tires slip. It's instantaneous and runs through the entire drivetrain adding up just before your tires break traction. It's that instantaneous load that will break something. Guaranteed.

I'm just a ME student, but I do have experience with machine and automotive design engineering. I'm not dogging your car, but I am surprised nothing was done to the drivetrain, especially since you have such equipment at your disposal. Plus all of these guys are drooling at your results (which are very impressive) and should know the muddy waters you're getting into.
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  #65  
Old 10-12-2006, 07:08 PM
shiv@vishnu shiv@vishnu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechElement View Post
A vehicle is a machine, one which is designed to run as a system. BMW specifically designed and engineered a transmission and the remaining drive train to handle the power and torque the engine will deliver to it. When you boost your hp and torque a lot like vishnu did, you've gone beyond the engineered hp and torque BMW originally designed. Thus by doing so, you actually do decrease the lifespan of your drivetrain.

I honestly don't know much about independent suspension vehicles even though I bought one, but when modifying a vehicle as such, you want to redesign or upgrade your drivetrain to handle the new additional hp and torque. When I redesigned my vehicle with a 130hp & 150lbs-ft torque increase (not a BMW) I made sure the transmission would not be the weakest link by replacing it with a heavier duty transmission designed for those loads. I did the same thing with my axles, gears, drive shafts, u-joints and springs. I designed my system to have failure take place during high torque at the u-joint to avoid extreme damage to my transmission and drive shafts. U joints cost much less than driveshafts and transmissions. Simple.

Lots of guys and girls with those "ricers" do the same type of thing sort of. Those who actually trick their engines (NOS, turbo, cam, intake, header, etc.) neglect the transmission. A friend of mine did this to his Civic STi and puked the clutch very fast. After he installed one of those high performance clutches he puked his transmission. All of this took place within one year.


So torque at the wheels is now a gear ahead of stock. Is this through acceleration? Why would you want a car that couldn't even launch? When you put some good rubber on those rims that actually sticks to the pavement in 1st, I think something will break. BTW, there is more stress there in 1st gear even though your tires slip. It's instantaneous and runs through the entire drivetrain adding up just before your tires break traction. It's that instantaneous load that will break something. Guaranteed.

I'm just a ME student, but I do have experience with machine and automotive design engineering. I'm not dogging your car, but I am surprised nothing was done to the drivetrain, especially since you have such equipment at your disposal. Plus all of these guys are drooling at your results (which are very impressive) and should know the muddy waters you're getting into.

"Guaranteed" is a pretty strong word. Especially when your predictions are in odd with reality. But it's funny you mention the pitfalls of more power. If our world of tuning Subys and Evos, we (and just about every other tuner around) routinely builds cars that run (at competitively race) at 400-500hp levels. We're talking about 60' times of 1.6 seconds. And that is with 50% more torque than stock. And this is in AWD applications there instanteous shock loads are out of this world. With the Subys, we don't have to do anything. With the EVOs, the most we do is eventually upgrade the clutch if or when the stocker starts to slip. The days of fragile transmissions are long gone, imho.

As for "doing something to the drivetrain", what do you suggest? Upgrading to a dog box with straight cut gears? Cryo treating the gears? etc,. Don't you think that is a little excessive if there is no evidence of impending failure? If all you suggest is upgrading the clutch, I think that can wait until the day it starts slipping, no?

We're not talking about a situation where a Honda transmission which is designed to handle 120lb-ft of torque and we are boosting it up to 240lb-ft with a turbo kit or NOS. In such a case, longevity will be compromised in a big way. That would be like asking a 335i transmission to reliably support 600lb-ft. Fortunately, we're just asking it to support 400lb-ft.

-shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 10-12-2006 at 07:13 PM.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:20 PM
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From your experience you're confident it'll be just fine and that's good to hear.
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  #67  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:12 AM
AW328i AW328i is offline
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How do you find out how much load a tranny or clutch can support?
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  #68  
Old 10-13-2006, 08:23 AM
adc adc is offline
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Originally Posted by AW328i View Post
How do you find out how much load a tranny or clutch can support?
Well in these types of applications, since no one:
a. knows the exact limits designed into the transmission, and
b. tests the existing transmission destructively,
in this case it's the first customers that test the medium term reliability of any upgrades.

This is a habit enforced by those customers who demand to get the upgrades before the soldering iron has had time to cool, and ignore the small common sense voice over their shoulders. So what's the common sense voice saying? Simple: you got to pay to play. Every time you take one or more of your car's components over the original loads and limits, you can expect wear to be greater and lifespan to be shorter. It may or may not fail while you own the car, but there is no denying the increased wear IMO.

Give the tuners a year to put 50k-100k miles on their test cars and they'll have a much better idea regarding the reliability. Let them open the engine and measure wear, and they'll be able to estimate lifespan. Allow them to fry a few clutches, and they'll tell you exactly what it can take and what not.

This is not just limited to chipping - add sway bars for instance and you increase the repeated partial loads on the mounting points, leading to earlier fatigue failures.

And this is not limited to modifications, but also extends to the way you use the car. Drive like my brother in law and you car will see the north end of 200k miles even with wild modifications. Take it to the track 20 times per year and you will see all sort of failures even on stock cars.

It's a give and take game, and you need to be aware of it...
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  #69  
Old 10-13-2006, 09:34 AM
ctchrinthry ctchrinthry is offline
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Points are all taken ADC.

Personally, i don't do that many burnouts. I like to push the car, but my "runs" tend to be 5-60 ( if that ) and using 3rd to pass on the highway. The latter is where i really expect the 3.0T (especially the chipped version) to shine.

I doubt i'll chew up the transmission during my lease period, even with a chip.
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  #70  
Old 10-13-2006, 11:24 AM
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MechElement MechElement is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Well in these types of applications, since no one:
a. knows the exact limits designed into the transmission, and
b. tests the existing transmission destructively,
in this case it's the first customers that test the medium term reliability of any upgrades.

This is a habit enforced by those customers who demand to get the upgrades before the soldering iron has had time to cool, and ignore the small common sense voice over their shoulders. So what's the common sense voice saying? Simple: you got to pay to play. Every time you take one or more of your car's components over the original loads and limits, you can expect wear to be greater and lifespan to be shorter. It may or may not fail while you own the car, but there is no denying the increased wear IMO.

Give the tuners a year to put 50k-100k miles on their test cars and they'll have a much better idea regarding the reliability. Let them open the engine and measure wear, and they'll be able to estimate lifespan. Allow them to fry a few clutches, and they'll tell you exactly what it can take and what not.

This is not just limited to chipping - add sway bars for instance and you increase the repeated partial loads on the mounting points, leading to earlier fatigue failures.

And this is not limited to modifications, but also extends to the way you use the car. Drive like my brother in law and you car will see the north end of 200k miles even with wild modifications. Take it to the track 20 times per year and you will see all sort of failures even on stock cars.

It's a give and take game, and you need to be aware of it...
Finally.

If you beat on your car, you decrease the lifespan of the components. If you modify your car as such, you do the same thing. Metallurgy is metallurgy and engineering is engineering. You're applying larger cyclic loads than originally designed. Think about the theory.
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  #71  
Old 10-13-2006, 11:55 AM
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sflgator sflgator is offline
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Just a thought...if adding significant HP/TQ puts too much stress on the car's systems and components such as the tranny, etc., then why does BMW cover Dinan power mods under the BMW warranty?
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  #72  
Old 10-13-2006, 12:11 PM
adc adc is offline
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Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
Just a thought...if adding significant HP/TQ puts too much stress on the car's systems and components such as the tranny, etc., then why does BMW cover Dinan power mods under the BMW warranty?
They don't.

It's a common misconception, but essentially what Dinan is saying is that their warranty starts where BMW's warranty lets off. So if you blow your engine because of the Dinan supercharger system, BMW will laugh at you but Dinan will buy you a new engine.
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  #73  
Old 10-13-2006, 12:20 PM
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They don't.

It's a common misconception, but essentially what Dinan is saying is that their warranty starts where BMW's warranty lets off. So if you blow your engine because of the Dinan supercharger system, BMW will laugh at you but Dinan will buy you a new engine.
ok...I was under the impression that if you got the Dinan chip s/w update and subsequently had an engine-related problem (identified that the Dinan s/w upgrade possibly caused), that BMW would cover any repairs under the BMW warranty? Are you sure that Dinan would pay for any repairs if BMW proved to be related to the Dinan chip?
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  #74  
Old 10-13-2006, 12:22 PM
adc adc is offline
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Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
ok...I was under the impression that if you got the Dinan chip s/w update and subsequently had an engine-related problem (identified that the Dinan s/w upgrade possibly caused), that BMW would cover any repairs under the BMW warranty? Are you sure that Dinan would pay for any repairs that BMW proved to be related to the Dinan chip?
Check out Dinan's website.
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  #75  
Old 10-13-2006, 12:50 PM
radgator1 radgator1 is offline
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IMHO this is a load of crap and just people looking for something to worry about. BMW trannies are extremely robust and some of the best ones out there and failures are extremely uncommon, including in the extensive number of SC and Turbo charged e36's and e46' with some cars pushing close to 600 crank HP.

I am not aware of any chronic problem of drivetrain failures in e90s, which have been common in some Japanese cars, Acura comming to mind. If power mods are "guaranteed" to cause failure you would be seeing failures in stock cars, especially those being driven very hard. Again, as shiv stated, you might fry your clutch and need a bigger one in a 6MT but otherwise I will be shocked if we start seeing transmission failures in modded 335i's.

Don't worry, be happy
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