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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #76  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Check out Dinan's website.
Interesting. So, basically everything is covered by Dinan, not BMW, and any repairs needed would be done at n/c at your BMW's service dept. (if it's an authorized Dinan dealer). However, without looking too hard at the Dinan warranty statement, I think it mainly addresses a defective Dinan s/w or equipment install. It doesn't really talk about if something else on your car breaks (e.g the tranny) due to the upgraded power of the Dinan s/w. So, I wonder if in this scenario, parts&labor are covered should BMW find a problem that they determine is casused by the Dinan chip.
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  #77  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:30 PM
adc adc is offline
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Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
IMHO this is a load of crap and just people looking for something to worry about. (...) Again, as shiv stated, you might fry your clutch and need a bigger one in a 6MT but otherwise I will be shocked if we start seeing transmission failures in modded 335i's.
So it won't blow the tranny, but it'll blow the clutch?

Let it be known that clutch replacement is a $1500 job probably not covered under warranty. For people like me (or you?), clutch failure may just be an opportunity to get something better, a LTW flywheel and whatnot - but for others it may be an unfortunate, unplanned and expensive event.

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Be happy allright, but keep your wallet handy...
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  #78  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:34 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
Interesting. So, basically everything is covered by Dinan, not BMW, and any repairs needed would be done at n/c at your BMW's service dept. (if it's an authorized Dinan dealer). However, without looking too hard at the Dinan warranty statement, I think it mainly addresses a defective Dinan s/w or equipment install. It doesn't really talk about if something else on your car breaks (e.g the tranny) due to the upgraded power of the Dinan s/w. So, I wonder if in this scenario, parts&labor are covered should BMW find a problem that they determine is casused by the Dinan chip.
You hit the nail on the head... that's why I don't put too much stock on Dinan modifications, and think they're overpriced. Well at least for bolt-ons...

If you're talking about changing cams/internals, such as the S2 M5 package, then it makes sense because I doubt Dinan would leave you out to dry should anything untoward happen with the engine...

But if your clutch/tranny blows because you're now sporting 200 extra BHP courtesy of Mr. Dinan, I am not sure that anybody would pay for it, other than the lucky owner...
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  #79  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:37 PM
radgator1 radgator1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
So it won't blow the tranny, but it'll blow the clutch?

Let it be known that clutch replacement is a $1500 job probably not covered under warranty. For people like me (or you?), clutch failure may just be an opportunity to get something better, a LTW flywheel and whatnot - but for others it may be an unfortunate, unplanned and expensive event.



Be happy allright, but keep your wallet handy...
Clutch is covered by warranty/maintainence I believe. I had SMG in my M3 and am getting step in my 335i so never really explored it.

So it would be exit the exede, then to the dealer for free clutch replacement. Only problem would be if it is a chronic problem you will want a bigger one anyway, and that will come out of your pocket. So far Shiv isn't having any problems. Of course that is a sample of one but it looks promising.
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  #80  
Old 10-13-2006, 02:06 PM
adc adc is offline
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Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
Clutch is covered by warranty/maintainence I believe. I had SMG in my M3 and am getting step in my 335i so never really explored it.

So it would be exit the exede, then to the dealer for free clutch replacement. Only problem would be if it is a chronic problem you will want a bigger one anyway, and that will come out of your pocket. So far Shiv isn't having any problems. Of course that is a sample of one but it looks promising.
Some BMW owners have had luck with the clutch replacement - almost all early E39 M5s, some E46 M3s. But not all.

Fry the clutch at 10k miles and BMW may yield. Fry it at 20k miles and they may turn you down - it depends on many other factors (how friendly you are with your SA, what image they have of you etc.).

BMW can even step in outside warranty and cover some of the cost, as a goodwill gesture.

But you need to be aware of these things...



As far as Shiv having problems, he doesn't even have 5k miles on that car...
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  #81  
Old 10-13-2006, 03:24 PM
radgator1 radgator1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Some BMW owners have had luck with the clutch replacement - almost all early E39 M5s, some E46 M3s. But not all.

Fry the clutch at 10k miles and BMW may yield. Fry it at 20k miles and they may turn you down - it depends on many other factors (how friendly you are with your SA, what image they have of you etc.).

BMW can even step in outside warranty and cover some of the cost, as a goodwill gesture.

But you need to be aware of these things...



As far as Shiv having problems, he doesn't even have 5k miles on that car...


How do you know? He could have driven another 1000 miles since the last time he updated his mileage? Sorry, somehow it's just so hard to resist arguing with you, but I mean that in a good way
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  #82  
Old 10-13-2006, 04:56 PM
rgaines rgaines is offline
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Upgrade durability

Imagine this: A US spec 633. Engine has a set of JEs in it to drop the c/r to 8.7. Upgraded fasteners, otherwise bottom end is stock. Hybrid Garret turbo. An intercooler that looks like it was the radiator for a Cat D9. Methanol supplemental injection. 32 lbs. of boost measured at the intake plenum. Custom cam and springs to allow for the higher revs.
About 740 lbs/ft of torque at peak.
This car has a Euro close ratio 5 speed stock from an M6. Diff is stock. Same for half shafts, driveshaft, and the mounts. Clutch is from the M1.
It is driven smoothly, but fully. It was used to make a record setting run up Pikes Peak. It ALWAYS sees the redline (7400) every time it is driven.
It has run for 43,000 miles with no mechanical failure. Yes it has had fastidious maintenence. Plugs, tires (many!), fluids changed much more often than the average car. But the basic drivetrain is solid and intact.
A lot of failure is from the yahoo behind the wheel.
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  #83  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:31 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
[/B]

How do you know? He could have driven another 1000 miles since the last time he updated his mileage? Sorry, somehow it's just so hard to resist arguing with you, but I mean that in a good way

Well he chipped the car while it had under 1000 miles. Somehow I doubt he put another 4000 miles on it in the intervening 14 days...

I don't mind the arguments, and I'm not even predicting catastrophic failures. All I'm saying is that prospective chip buyers should not be terribly surprised if they need to replace the clutch a little earlier than say 100k miles, which would be considered "normal" on a car like this...

I mean I'm hoping that's not the case, because right now the thought of a 335 with "minor mods" is very very appealing...

Another thing we need to wait to see is what BMW's attitude will be on warranty claims for modified 335s.
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  #84  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:38 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgaines View Post
Imagine this: A US spec 633. Engine has a set of JEs in it to drop the c/r to 8.7. Upgraded fasteners, otherwise bottom end is stock. Hybrid Garret turbo. An intercooler that looks like it was the radiator for a Cat D9. Methanol supplemental injection. 32 lbs. of boost measured at the intake plenum. Custom cam and springs to allow for the higher revs.
About 740 lbs/ft of torque at peak.
This car has a Euro close ratio 5 speed stock from an M6. Diff is stock. Same for half shafts, driveshaft, and the mounts. Clutch is from the M1.
It is driven smoothly, but fully. It was used to make a record setting run up Pikes Peak. It ALWAYS sees the redline (7400) every time it is driven.
It has run for 43,000 miles with no mechanical failure. Yes it has had fastidious maintenence. Plugs, tires (many!), fluids changed much more often than the average car. But the basic drivetrain is solid and intact.
Well we're not talking about the 633 built more than 20 years ago, but rather about the current products of a much more cost-conscious company.

Quote:
A lot of failure is from the yahoo behind the wheel.
Of course, it's probably equal parts hardware and driver. My friend has a 98 M3 with intake/exhaust - say some 255BHP on a good day. The car has been very well maintained, he doesn't do standing starts at all, but drives hard and tracks the car a few times a year. He's around the 70k miles mark and will need a clutch bearing very soon. He doesn't mind really, he sees this as the cost of doing business.

You always have to judge the product in case, any previous examples are largely irrelevent.

(and that being said, they don't build BMWs like they used to)
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  #85  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:57 PM
SpinZero SpinZero is offline
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First of all, let me state that I think what Shiv's been doing is really fantastic. I am very excited to check on this thread.

But realistically, as Shiv himself pointed out, once modding becomes widespread BMW will come down hard on all 335i owners. As a current owner of a Subaru WRX, I know a little bit about owning a car that is on the manufacturer's black list. I strongly believe that one should not start modding under the assumption that it wouldn't be detected. You pay to play, and that should be the base line before you start modding.
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  #86  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinZero View Post
First of all, let me state that I think what Shiv's been doing is really fantastic. I am very excited to check on this thread.

But realistically, as Shiv himself pointed out, once modding becomes widespread BMW will come down hard on all 335i owners. As a current owner of a Subaru WRX, I know a little bit about owning a car that is on the manufacturer's black list. I strongly believe that one should not start modding under the assumption that it wouldn't be detected. You pay to play, and that should be the base line before you start modding.
Which (nothing against Shiv b/c it's obvious that he and his co. are doing some excellent things with the Xede and the 335i) may be a reason to go the "safer" route with Dinan (once the s/w update is ready) since it's something BMW would have no problems knowing exactly what's been modded...you'd have nothing to hide. Your dealer would know and wouldn't care that your car has been updated with the Dinan s/w becauase they themselves sold it to you and your BMW dealer's service dept. themselves did the install. Even if the mod is covered under warranty by Dinan and not BMW per say, it's still the "safer" mod if you're concerned with the warranty and/or any potential problems with your car relating to the mod.

Don't get me wrong, I'll love to slap on the Xede, and I may still do just that, but I also don't want to have to rip out a black box and reconnect wires to the ECU every time my car needs to go in for service, just b/c I'm paranoid that my dealer is going to say something like "well, that thing you put on your car was found by one of our technicians and it's the reason you're having problems...we can fix it (for $3,000 of course) but sorry, it won't be covered under your warranty since you decided to add that engine modification."
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  #87  
Old 10-14-2006, 06:50 AM
ctchrinthry ctchrinthry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You hit the nail on the head... that's why I don't put too much stock on Dinan modifications, and think they're overpriced. Well at least for bolt-ons...
I don't know--according to my old dealer, the BMW warranty was untouched by dinan modifications. So, if something breaks, the dealer will fix the car as if it was unmodified.

Now, i am pretty sure that the dinan site used to say this fairly explicity, but i can't find it now.

In fact, there is now a waranty disclaimer: "The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty."

So +1 for vishnu.
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  #88  
Old 10-14-2006, 08:20 PM
idrive335ci idrive335ci is offline
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regarding Dinan

I think the point with Dinan is that BMW covers BMW parts, and Dinan covers Dinan parts. But the most important thing is that BMW does NOT cancel your warranty with Dinan mods. I don't think that can be said of other companies. As far as I understand, Dinan is unique in that respect.
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  #89  
Old 10-14-2006, 08:59 PM
ctchrinthry ctchrinthry is offline
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Originally Posted by idrive335ci View Post
I think the point with Dinan is that BMW covers BMW parts, and Dinan covers Dinan parts. But the most important thing is that BMW does NOT cancel your warranty with Dinan mods. I don't think that can be said of other companies. As far as I understand, Dinan is unique in that respect.
I don't know. It definitely *used* to be that way. But according to what the dinan site currently says, bmw may choose to invalidate the warranty on affected parts. So, if you dialed up the boost with a dinan chip, and blew a head gasket or fried a turbo, BMW might tell you "too bad."

Now, i know some audi dealers would just neglect to mention to audi USA that a vehicle in for chip-related repairs was chipped, especially if the car owner bought the mods from the dealer. But i think audi USA rooted this out as best they could, since they end up paying for all the warranty work.

dave
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  #90  
Old 10-16-2006, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctchrinthry View Post
Now, i know some audi dealers would just neglect to mention to audi USA that a vehicle in for chip-related repairs was chipped, especially if the car owner bought the mods from the dealer. But i think audi USA rooted this out as best they could, since they end up paying for all the warranty work.

dave
So maybe one should buy a Dinan install only from a BMW authorized dealer?
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  #91  
Old 10-16-2006, 08:26 PM
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If you think BMW's safety factor on that tranny is only 1 then you need to stay in school.

More like 1.4 or higher. So, more than likely if the engine team told the tranny team that the engine would be putting out about 300 ft-lbs at the crank the tranny team multiplied that by 1.4 or higher (those darn conservative German engineers) when they designed the tranny.

300 ft-lbs X 1.4 = 420 ft-lbs

And that is a low estimate. More than likely they hit that thing with a 1.5 or maybe even a 2.

And by the way, an elevator usually has the highest safety factor at 10 while aircraft have the lowest at 1.15. Thats why the aerospace industry has such high quality control standards vs. other industries... they can't add more weight to make the vehicle stronger.

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  #92  
Old 10-16-2006, 09:02 PM
ctchrinthry ctchrinthry is offline
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Originally Posted by MatWiz View Post
So maybe one should buy a Dinan install only from a BMW authorized dealer?
1) Their old items were warantied, period.

2) It depends on if your dealer is cooperative or not.
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  #93  
Old 10-19-2006, 07:26 PM
valeram valeram is offline
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If I can still remember my Machine Design 101 subject in ME before I change my carrer to computer. Our Professor was the manager of the GM transmission plant and one of the topic was the design of gears in the transmission box. Each gears has been design differently like the first gear life multiplier factor is less than the sixth and accordingly. The safety factor was around 1.4 mulipying it with the life factor. I even remember that we were surprised that the first gear was deigned for life expectancy of just hours not months or years. But he pointed out that the computation was based on 110% load factor x 1.4 (safety) x 120%Torque x 24 hrs life expectancy. Your first impression is that the design computation is low but he pointed out that how many times you will load your car 110% with torque of 120% and how long will you drive your car in first gear in that condition, which make more sense. It will take years before you reach the designed computed strength for that particular gear. The gears will not break as soon as you reach that computed value but will start to loose some of its efficiency due to change in tolerances in dimensions. The car will still run but you will start to hear some gearing noises, from softly and getting louder, but it will still work without any problem. One last thought that stays in my brain after that session, he said that:Engineers don't design machines for life or else we gonna run out of work to do!
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  #94  
Old 10-20-2006, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by valeram View Post
If I can still remember my Machine Design 101 subject in ME before I change my carrer to computer. Our Professor was the manager of the GM transmission plant and one of the topic was the design of gears in the transmission box. Each gears has been design differently like the first gear life multiplier factor is less than the sixth and accordingly. The safety factor was around 1.4 mulipying it with the life factor. I even remember that we were surprised that the first gear was deigned for life expectancy of just hours not months or years. But he pointed out that the computation was based on 110% load factor x 1.4 (safety) x 120%Torque x 24 hrs life expectancy. Your first impression is that the design computation is low but he pointed out that how many times you will load your car 110% with torque of 120% and how long will you drive your car in first gear in that condition, which make more sense. It will take years before you reach the designed computed strength for that particular gear. The gears will not break as soon as you reach that computed value but will start to loose some of its efficiency due to change in tolerances in dimensions. The car will still run but you will start to hear some gearing noises, from softly and getting louder, but it will still work without any problem. One last thought that stays in my brain after that session, he said that:Engineers don't design machines for life or else we gonna run out of work to do!
Oh no, my 2000 528i steptronics is GM built.
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  #95  
Old 10-22-2006, 02:26 PM
doc7string doc7string is offline
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Just checked out the DINAN warranty. It does not cover forced induction engines (super or turbo charged) it will continue to cover other parts of the drivetrain. Seems like a bad idea to chip the 335i unless you don't care about your warranty!
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  #96  
Old 10-23-2006, 10:21 AM
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Regarding the longevity of the engine, the stock maps are a bit lean, so its a good idea to get some safety margin by reflash. I don't mind the additional power either. It would be stupid not to reflash 335i.
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  #97  
Old 10-23-2006, 12:26 PM
hKg hKg is offline
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yes running lean may squeeze out more performance but in the long run after getting chipped may cause detonation/pinging etc. Are there plans to replace fuel injectors to increase fuel supply or just reworked A/F maps? Just out of curiosity does anyone know the max torque rating of the ZF 6 speed step in the 335i. Planning on getting one in summer 07 and wanted to know how much the step tranny can take

Last edited by hKg; 10-23-2006 at 12:29 PM.
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  #98  
Old 10-23-2006, 01:21 PM
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Shiv found out (the first post in here) that the OE map was lean and at the limit of detonating, whereas his tuned map was a lot more safe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
we saw AFRs as lean as 15.5:1. And this under full boost! Lean to say the least. At higher engine speeds, AFR worked its way back into the nice and rich side of things. But the AFR in the midrange was odd. Odd enough to make me look for air pumps which would explain the lean readings. I didn't find any. Obviously BMW tuned this car this way for a reason. Probably for fuel economy and certainly for emissions. Does it compromise power and safety? We won’t know for sure until we try something else, no? More on that later on. In our first tuning attempt, we made very very little change to AFR. If anything, our tuning resulting in it being slightly richer at high rpm ("tuned" is the green line, stock is the blue line).

...the biggest improvement we were able to get was with respect to Air/Fuel ratio. Yes, the tuned run is running over 2 FULL points richer in the midrange than the stock run!
...by virtue of the new fuel mapping, it's reasonable to say that the tuned car is running more knock-free, safer and cooler than the stock car. All while making a boat load more power and torque.

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  #99  
Old 10-23-2006, 04:23 PM
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I'm sure the tuners in Europe will have packages coming out soon too for this new 335i ECU Upgrades from Europe will vary with power outputs and top-speed delimiters I can't wait to get my hands on a new 135i if they ship them to Asia.
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  #100  
Old 11-27-2006, 03:28 AM
smikle smikle is offline
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THANK YOU guys for posting the factor of saftey.. i am also doing mechanical engineering and just so happen to like/own BMW's too..

Yes BMW obviously designed it with a factor of saftey (who doesn't) greater than one.. Gears and shafts can be exposed to impact torques.. due to sudden changes of engine speed.. there are aso designed with alternating tourques in mind, that go on for many cycles.. so obviusly the engineers have to design not only for the safety of factor but for the safe alternating load... Soo it would take way more than that to break it as said before.

Most of the time people break trannies is a huge sudden impact, impact dreadfully multiplies the actual load on the object.. and sometimes the rotating parts have some mperfections or they have just done their time..

This is a BMW here.from experience they are more robust than most cars..

i think some of the negative posts are comming form people who are just afraid of new things...
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