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  #1  
Old 06-26-2015, 11:48 PM
dazz1 dazz1 is offline
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Open Source Development of new coding tools. Anyone interested ????

I am a new owner of a 2008 E90 (I have 3x E36s parked in the drive) and new to coding. So new that I haven't successfully coded my car yet.

I have struggled to assemble and install the tools needed for coding my car.
Like many others I have purchased a dedicated laptop that is devoid of anti-virus software.
While searching for programs and important files I have visited links that have doused my laptop with viruses and malware.
I have gone through archaic and clunking installations that patch together a nasty collection of software.

I have successfully communicated with my car but as an Engineer, I am completely unsatisfied with the state of the common coding tools.
The tools are too old, too clunky and too awful.

The purpose of this post is to gauge the interest in developing a new coding toolset using the open source development model.
The major features of such a toolset would be:

Open source license
Multi-lingual for international user base
Modular architecture to allow programming of other car makes, future models and future protocols
Platform independent programing language to run on Linux , Windows and maybe Apple
Multi-member development team to avoid an IP black hole.

This is a big job but the Open Source community has shown how it can be done. Anyone familiar with open source development will know the advantages it brings.
Free, high quality software with good features and good support.

I anticipate that the professional coding services would be interested in supporting the development and testing of a new toolset.
Better tools will make coding more accessible to owners. That accessibility will broaden awareness and the potential customer base for the professional coders.

Let us hear what you think.
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2015, 04:14 PM
R1nZX R1nZX is offline
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To the best of my knowledge there aren't any other cars that can be coded like the BMW. One big advantage they have over Audi and M-B. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(By that I mean coded by the consumer, obviously they're coded at the factory.)

Last edited by R1nZX; 06-27-2015 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #3  
Old 06-27-2015, 06:07 PM
jgbackes's Avatar
jgbackes jgbackes is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazz1 View Post
I am a new owner of a 2008 E90 (I have 3x E36s parked in the drive) and new to coding. So new that I haven't successfully coded my car yet.

I have struggled to assemble and install the tools needed for coding my car.
Like many others I have purchased a dedicated laptop that is devoid of anti-virus software.
While searching for programs and important files I have visited links that have doused my laptop with viruses and malware.
I have gone through archaic and clunking installations that patch together a nasty collection of software.

I have successfully communicated with my car but as an Engineer, I am completely unsatisfied with the state of the common coding tools.
The tools are too old, too clunky and too awful.

The purpose of this post is to gauge the interest in developing a new coding toolset using the open source development model.
The major features of such a toolset would be:

Open source license
Multi-lingual for international user base
Modular architecture to allow programming of other car makes, future models and future protocols
Platform independent programing language to run on Linux , Windows and maybe Apple
Multi-member development team to avoid an IP black hole.

This is a big job but the Open Source community has shown how it can be done. Anyone familiar with open source development will know the advantages it brings.
Free, high quality software with good features and good support.

I anticipate that the professional coding services would be interested in supporting the development and testing of a new toolset.
Better tools will make coding more accessible to owners. That accessibility will broaden awareness and the potential customer base for the professional coders.

Let us hear what you think.
I think it's a wonderful idea, I just don't think it has legs when BMW can use the DMCA to bring down the site if they feel that it reverse engineers their "protocol". I guess this would have to be hosted offshore.

If you are thinking of Java I'm in. I think "TokenMaster" is a java dude as well. He gives his coding application without charge to anyone that asked, but that is not of course open source.

Is there an offshore version of GitHub and or Source Forge?

jeff
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2015, 06:46 PM
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stonex1 stonex1 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgbackes View Post
I think it's a wonderful idea,
+1

I'm advocate of open source software. Especially Linux.
I'm not a coder or programmer, but love the idea.

Are you thinking of something like the BMWHAT app?, or now known as carly for BMW.
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2015, 12:53 AM
dazz1 dazz1 is offline
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Hello

The DCMA is one piece of legislation in one country. There is similar legislation elsewhere but not everywhere.
The advantage of a modular architecture is that the application could masquerade as a diagnostics tool in the USA.
The capability to plug-in coding modules sourced from outside the USA should not trigger DMCA.

If the ability to code is unique to BMW, it probably won't be for very long. If it makes economic sense to BMW, other car makers are likely to follow.

A modular architecture will allow different coding algorithms from different car makers to be implemented with having to scrap the whole app.


If the application is broken down into a swarm of small utilities, they can be joined together like lego blocks.
If all the utilities are command line interface driven, they can be called by a scripting language.
The individual utilities wouldn't even need to be written in the same language.


A graphics interface could then be written as a skin to hide the command line.

This project needs a core team of programmers to get started.
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  #6  
Old 06-28-2015, 05:10 AM
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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I will not tolerate M$ on my linux OS computer, there is only FOSS on it.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation EFF.org defends our Right to Repair https://www.eff.org/issues/right-to-repair despite manufacturers abuse of Digital Restrictions Management via the DMCA. It is a large and complex topic.

I am absolutely in favor of an open source access to my BMW, and will happily crowdsource a properly structured effort.
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2015, 02:41 PM
ynguldyn ynguldyn is offline
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You could reverse engineer the protocols (there are at least three you'll need to cover, and with the appearance of S15A there's now four) and write something that would emulate the behavior of BMW shop/factory tools (as a matter of fact, this has been done), but you won't get anywhere without the databases.

Basically, if at this point you don't know what psdzdata and sp-daten are, what they do, and why they are more important than any software you could write, you should take a step back and rethink your approach.

Also, there's this: www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=175
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2015, 03:34 PM
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
[ ... ] Basically, if at this point you don't know what psdzdata and sp-daten are, what they do, and why they are more important than any software you could write, you should take a step back and rethink your approach.
Will you please kindly tell us what is the secret handshake? Do you understand the concept of SECURITY THROUGH OBSCURITY? Learn to use a GARMIN product for instance.

Basically, at this point in the development of BMW_FOSS why would we need to know what are PSDZDATA and SP-DATEN? First comes the horse, the communication protocols, then the databases might become useful - and I am in no way a programmer, barely a |user.

ETA: The copy of PSDZ_DATA that I just found is in proprietary Roshal ARchive format, licensed by win.rar GmbH. "Decompression source code is available, but it's not free software due to the restriction that it must not be used to reverse engineer the RAR compression algorithm."

Last edited by Doug Huffman; 06-28-2015 at 03:41 PM.
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2015, 06:16 PM
ynguldyn ynguldyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Will you please kindly tell us what is the secret handshake? Do you understand the concept of SECURITY THROUGH OBSCURITY? Learn to use a GARMIN product for instance.

Basically, at this point in the development of BMW_FOSS why would we need to know what are PSDZDATA and SP-DATEN? First comes the horse, the communication protocols, then the databases might become useful - and I am in no way a programmer, barely a |user.

ETA: The copy of PSDZ_DATA that I just found is in proprietary Roshal ARchive format, licensed by win.rar GmbH. "Decompression source code is available, but it's not free software due to the restriction that it must not be used to reverse engineer the RAR compression algorithm."
Wow. The last time I encountered this level of fanaticism was when I spent an hour with RMS many years ago. I tried to stick to small talk, knowing how rigid he was in his views. Still, our conversation had to end abruptly, when he responded to my suggestion to use a bit more moderation in his demand for everyone to say "GNU Linux", and never omitting the "GNU" part, by running away from me - literally running towards his MIT office.

(OK, I hope this paragraph works as the secret handshake, and we can move on to the substance.)

I understand the concept of security in all its aspects - that's a part of my daily job. I understand the concept of open source and its usefulness to the development ecosystem - that's also a part of my daily job. For the same reason, I also understand that you can write the perfect software, but it's going to be perfectly useless without the right data.

In this specific case, you have the choice between staying pure and untouched by the evil of commercial software and actually accomplishing something.

For the details of what those things I mentioned are, please refer to the forum area I linked to above. And if a moderator is reading this thread, I would suggest moving it there, since the OP might get some real help there.
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  #10  
Old Yesterday, 05:00 AM
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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I suggest that OPie will prefer this thread stand, or die, on its own, seeking clarity and not further obfuscation. His feature of an open source license militates against any secured commercial software. Follow the money - to DRM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazz1 View Post
[ ... ]The purpose of this post is to gauge the interest in developing a new coding toolset using the open source development model.
The major features of such a toolset would be:

Open source license
Multi-lingual for international user base
Modular architecture to allow programming of other car makes, future models and future protocols
Platform independent programing language to run on Linux , Windows and maybe Apple
Multi-member development team to avoid an IP black hole.

This is a big job but the Open Source community has shown how it can be done. Anyone familiar with open source development will know the advantages it brings.
Free, high quality software with good features and good support.

I anticipate that the professional coding services would be interested in supporting the development and testing of a new toolset.
Better tools will make coding more accessible to owners. That accessibility will broaden awareness and the potential customer base for the professional coders.

Let us hear what you think.
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  #11  
Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM
ynguldyn ynguldyn is offline
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From my personal experience, if you can apply the word "militate" to the software project, that project will go absolutely nowhere.
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  #12  
Old Today, 01:00 AM
dazz1 dazz1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
And if a moderator is reading this thread, I would suggest moving it there, since the OP might get some real help there.
That is a fine idea. I did try to find an appropriate place to post this topic but I got it wrong.

If the moderator doesn't move this thread, I propose to re-post the OP in the right place and continue the discussion there.
Not quite good forum etiquette but a pragmatic solution.
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