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E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)
4th generation E90 M3 sedan, E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible. The last of the naturally aspirated M3s, powered by a 4.0 liter V8 making 414hp and 295 lb-ft of torque.

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  #1  
Old 05-14-2007, 09:39 AM
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NO SMG, rumors

I talked to my dealer and the sales guy is pretty on top of the news. He hears that only a manual will be available including the double clutch deal. The SMG may not even come on this model.

Does anyone have other info to share?
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2007, 10:38 AM
ObD ObD is offline
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SMG was a marketing failure. DSG is rumored to be more like an automatic than a manual.

Get the true manual.
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObD View Post
SMG was a marketing failure. DSG is rumored to be more like an automatic than a manual.

Get the true manual.
I hear on the rumor. DSG doesnt drive like the SMG. There is no rollback on the DSG, its nearly an automatic with the best transfer of power to the wheels, I mean thats good, but how boring of a drive when it doesnt feel like a manual.

Also, the P-R-N-D-S config looks pretty NON sporty on the DSG. I would just get manual, but I prefer a SMG tranny. It was fun to drive the SMG.

Why was this a failure, it seemed to have done well. Perhaps really hardcore M lovers do not believe that the M should even be with an automatic or of a similar tranny type.
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  #4  
Old 05-14-2007, 09:45 PM
GregW in Oregon GregW in Oregon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riuster View Post
I hear on the rumor. DSG doesnt drive like the SMG. There is no rollback on the DSG, its nearly an automatic with the best transfer of power to the wheels, I mean thats good, but how boring of a drive when it doesnt feel like a manual.

Also, the P-R-N-D-S config looks pretty NON sporty on the DSG. I would just get manual, but I prefer a SMG tranny. It was fun to drive the SMG.

Why was this a failure, it seemed to have done well. Perhaps really hardcore M lovers do not believe that the M should even be with an automatic or of a similar tranny type.
DSG will almost surely have manual mode with 7 gears controlled by paddle shifters--should not feel too much different from SMG, just a little better and quicker shifts. Auto mode will feel much more like an automatic transmission, even though there are clutches involved and no torque convertor. I've always had a manual in my BMWs, but I'm willing to give it a try.
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2007, 08:50 AM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW in Oregon View Post
DSG will almost surely have manual mode with 7 gears controlled by paddle shifters--should not feel too much different from SMG, just a little better and quicker shifts. Auto mode will feel much more like an automatic transmission, even though there are clutches involved and no torque convertor. I've always had a manual in my BMWs, but I'm willing to give it a try.
+1. And I understand BMW is working with a different manufacturer for the DSG, maybe ZF? I forget. And I think it's called DCT. The design goals are to be very smooth in Auto mode, but a little more engaging in manual mode than the DSG.
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2007, 08:56 AM
GregW in Oregon GregW in Oregon is offline
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Dct

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
+1. And I understand BMW is working with a different manufacturer for the DSG, maybe ZF? I forget. And I think it's called DCT. The design goals are to be very smooth in Auto mode, but a little more engaging in manual mode than the DSG.
This was my guess on the DCT I posted a few weeks ago:

This transmission may be the one we get in the E92 next year:



KEY BENEFITS
- Optimized efficiency
- Shifting without interruption of traction
- Excellent comfort
- Very quick and sportive shiftings possible

Max. Torque Capacity 600 Nm
Weight (dry) 79 kg
Installation length 660 mm
Synchronization
1st, 2nd and 3th gear dual cone
4th and 5th gear single cone
6th, and 7th gear dual cone
Reverse gear single cone

Gear Spread Ratio 6,8
Max. Gross Vehicle Mass/Gross Trailer Mass 2500 kg/4500 kg
Shifter System hydraulic
Miscellaneous DCT dual clutch transmission

http://www.getrag.de
Click on Transmissions/Dual Clutch Transmissions, then from the popdowns on the right DCT/Inline/Over 400 NM Torque
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  #7  
Old 05-15-2007, 09:07 AM
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The Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) is being developed by ZF and won't be in any cars until at least the 2009 model year.

I expect the M3 to come with a manual only the first model year. The second year will most likely have the DTC.

I don't expect the 3/5/6 series to get the tranny. At least not for a while due to supply. I would be surprised if the M5/6 get the tranny since they are both due for a redesign in 2010/11. Otherwise sales may be hurt by folks waiting for the DTC tranny.
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:27 PM
joema joema is offline
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Originally Posted by Riuster View Post
...There is no rollback on the DSG, its nearly an automatic with the best transfer of power to the wheels, I mean thats good, but how boring of a drive when it doesnt feel like a manual...Also, the P-R-N-D-S config looks pretty NON sporty on the DSG.
To further clarify, DSG (or whatever BMW will call their version) is NOT an automatic, it's an automated manual gearbox, just like SMG. Neither SMG nor DSG have a torque converter -- they are manual gearboxes shifted by computer-controlled electromechanical actuators.

Also, the driver interface -- whether paddles, P-R-N-D-S, sequential stick, etc, is totally independent of the transmission type.

More info: http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm

Both SMG-type and DSG-type transmissions are currently used in Formula One. The DSG tranny in F1 is called the "seamless transmission", but it's a dual-clutch system just like DSG.

The big advantage of DSG is smoother, faster "upshifts". I put that in quotes, as the often-stated 8 millisecond DSG shift time is misleading. Internally, it must shift just like SMG, which probably takes around 80-150 milliseconds. However -- it can do that while the previous gear is engaged, thus the actual handover from one gear to the next is around 8 milliseconds -- just the time to release one clutch and engage another. But technically that's not really shifting, as the shift has already happened.

I don't think DSG is any faster than SMG at downshifting -- it must still blip the throttle and rev match, which limits downshift speed.

Also the DSG advantage varies based on gear selection sequence. Since one clutch controls gears 1,3,5, and the other clutch gears 2,4,6, 1-2 or 2-3 upshifts are very fast.

However upshifting from 4-6, or downshifting from 6-2 entail greater delays. The control software would naturally strive to minimize that, but shifting between gears on the same clutch will be slower.

Overall DSG-type transmissions seem a nice advantage. Smoother upshifts and better performance (no power interruption during shifts). The cost is increased complexity.

But I don't understand why SMG-type transmissions can't be made smoother, as a skilled human driver can rival an automatic in smoothness.
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2007, 09:13 AM
josowski josowski is offline
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From what I have read on the M3post forum, the dual clutch system will be available starting in May 2008 - a 7 spd.

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  #10  
Old 05-16-2007, 10:50 AM
ObD ObD is offline
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Originally Posted by joema View Post
To further clarify, DSG (or whatever BMW will call their version) is NOT an automatic.


Yes, technically it does't have a torque converter. In reality, it's still an automatic. .... which shows why SMG was a marketing failure. People assumed SMG was an automatic and drove it like one when in reality one had to drive it like a manual. DSG is supposed to drive like an automatic yet technically be a manual. With or without the torque converter it is still driven like an automatic hence it's an automatic ... no matter how you justify it.
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Old 05-16-2007, 11:47 AM
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Yes, technically it does't have a torque converter. In reality, it's still an automatic. .... which shows why SMG was a marketing failure. People assumed SMG was an automatic and drove it like one when in reality one had to drive it like a manual. DSG is supposed to drive like an automatic yet technically be a manual. With or without the torque converter it is still driven like an automatic hence it's an automatic ... no matter how you justify it.

+1 In the old days there were manuals and automatics. The difference being the torque converter. Now days, this is no longer true. An automatic tranny is something that can be configured to shift for you. So the SMG/DSG/Step are all automatics.

From a driving perspective, there is no difference between shifting a car with paddle shifters that are sending signals to a step or SMG.

The only manual transmission is one with a clutch pedal.
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GregW in Oregon View Post
DSG will almost surely have manual mode with 7 gears controlled by paddle shifters--should not feel too much different from SMG, just a little better and quicker shifts. Auto mode will feel much more like an automatic transmission, even though there are clutches involved and no torque convertor. I've always had a manual in my BMWs, but I'm willing to give it a try.
I feel the same. If I went SMG it would be because expect a much less clunky experience, especially in "Auto" mode. BMW is heading in the right direction.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:17 PM
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I feel the same. If I went SMG it would be because expect a much less clunky experience, especially in "Auto" mode. BMW is heading in the right direction.
Agreed. But the scarey part is ZF. They have never made a DSG type tranny before. Borg Warner was the one to go to.

So I suspect there will be a lot of glitches the first model year or two since the DSG will be a completely computer controlled tranny with driver push buttons.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:18 PM
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From a driving perspective, there is no difference between shifting a car with paddle shifters that are sending signals to a step or SMG.
I beg to differ. There's huge difference between how I drive a car with SMG and how I drive a car with Step, either in manual paddle shifting mode or auto let-it-shift-itself mode.

With SMG or a manual transmission, I have to account for the fact that there's no torque converter to soak up driveline slop, so I must be more careful with the throttle. With Step, I just mash on or lift off and wait for the transmission to catch up.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GregW in Oregon View Post
DSG will almost surely have manual mode with 7 gears controlled by paddle shifters--should not feel too much different from SMG, just a little better and quicker shifts. Auto mode will feel much more like an automatic transmission, even though there are clutches involved and no torque convertor. I've always had a manual in my BMWs, but I'm willing to give it a try.
My guess is that this is the problem BMW has been trying to fix. They may feel that the SMG Automatic mode was too herky-jerky and that it may have eliminated a portion of the market that wanted a M3 with a good Automatic mode. Just a guess.

In any case, I'm interested to see the performance numbers on the DSG vs. a true manual. If, as was marketed with SMG before, the DSG is capable of shifting much faster than a human being with little or no power loss then it could be a better performing car....even if less engaging.
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:01 PM
jetstream23 jetstream23 is offline
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Yes, technically it does't have a torque converter. In reality, it's still an automatic. .... which shows why SMG was a marketing failure. People assumed SMG was an automatic and drove it like one when in reality one had to drive it like a manual. DSG is supposed to drive like an automatic yet technically be a manual. With or without the torque converter it is still driven like an automatic hence it's an automatic ... no matter how you justify it.
I love these debates. So, if a tranny has no torque converter and you must change the gears yourself it is considered an automatic? Simply because there is no clutch pedal on the floor but it still has a clutch...or clutches? With SMG/DSG in manual mode you can be in 2nd gear and floor it.....if you don't tell it to shift to 3rd, it doesn't. How is that automatic? You need to manually (via shifter or paddle) shift the car.
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:33 PM
De_UnKnOwN_1 De_UnKnOwN_1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ObD View Post


Yes, technically it does't have a torque converter. In reality, it's still an automatic. .... which shows why SMG was a marketing failure. People assumed SMG was an automatic and drove it like one when in reality one had to drive it like a manual. DSG is supposed to drive like an automatic yet technically be a manual. With or without the torque converter it is still driven like an automatic hence it's an automatic ... no matter how you justify it.

SMG was a marketing failure because people did not understand it, they THOUGHT it was an automatic

but it was not

DSG is not an automatic, it has no torque converter, it has 2 clutches.
It has a P R N D S layout because it is what is familar to the vast majority of people, and the drive mode is smooth as a babys butt. The manual mode is a manual..fast smooth shifting..

it is only driven like an auto when it is in D mode, the fact that the "default" mode is drive does not mean that its an automatic transmission.

If i am not mistaken, when you turn on the SMG it defaults the automatic mode anyway
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:47 PM
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People need to stop equating automatics to torque converters.

That is so 1960's.

Automatic transmissions historically only had torque converters. This is no longer the case.

Now there are automatic capable transmissions (SMG/DSG) that do not have torque converters. They can run in manual or auto mode both of which are computer controlled. This is the reality regardless of what people say.

Look up what the term automatic means in the dictionary.

I think staunch SMG drivers have a hard time at accessing what technology is actually in their transmission and hide behind some clutch/torque converter debate.

My neighbor has an 06 M3 with SMG. he drives in auto mode 95% of the time and loves it. To him, it is an automatic tranny that can be shifted manually if desired much like a step tranny.

Granted the internal working are different... i.e. clutch this, torque converter that, blah, blah, blah. The reality is the car is capable of doing everythign for you making it an automatic.

Many of you young kids do not remember but the manu-matic type trannys came out back in the 1940's I believe. VW called theirs a manu-matic. From a marketing standpoint, it does not sound as good as SMG I guess.

Last edited by chuck92103; 05-16-2007 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:54 PM
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The presence or absence of a torque converter has nothing to do with whether or not a transmission is or is not an automatic transmission.The first automatic transmissions did not have torque converters; they had fluid couplings. If you don't know the difference, look it up.

The Chrysler "Fluid Drive" of the 1930's was not considered to be a true automatic transmission because you had to shift gears manually, if you chose to shift. You could leave the tranny in high gear and drive if you didn't mind the performance loss. There was a pedal clutch (termed a "Safety Clutch") but it was not used in normal driving. This was really a semi-automatic transmission system since it did not make shifts automatically, but it did relieve the driver from shifting.

When true automatic transmissions became widely available in the late 1940's they were called "automatic" because they could (and normally did) shift gears without any input from the driver. But they did have a provision to prevent or dalay upshifts. At this time the pedal-operated clutch was removed as unnecessary.

A true manual transmission is one in which both the gear changes and the engagement/disengagement of the engine to the drive wheels are made entirely under the driver's control. If all of these processes are automated and can happen without input from the driver, it is an automatic transmission. Anything in between the two extremes is actualy a semi-automatic transmission. Some are selectable betweem semi-automatic and automatic (just as in firearms).

It's not how the transmission is made that defines it. It is how it is used. Tell a driver that this car has a manual transmission, and he or she will expect to see a clutch pedal.
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:10 PM
The`Garrett The`Garrett is offline
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Yes, technically it does't have a torque converter. In reality, it's still an automatic. .... which shows why SMG was a marketing failure. People assumed SMG was an automatic and drove it like one when in reality one had to drive it like a manual. DSG is supposed to drive like an automatic yet technically be a manual. With or without the torque converter it is still driven like an automatic hence it's an automatic ... no matter how you justify it.


Hmm.. what are you talking about..?

It is a manual. If you have a 6-speed manual and you girlffriend always shifts for you, it is now an Automatic..?

SMG's (and DSG) have an simulated "automatic" mode that takes the tedium of you manually shifting, since actuating the shifts are done electronically (and not mechanically) a computer program can be used to implament shifts on your behalf, actuating the gears automatically when that "mode" is selected.

But, that does not make it an automatic transmission. (ie: All BMW throttles are "by wire"... they are electronic, but still response manually, understand?)

The transmission itself will never shift gears on it own. It cannot. Its all mechanical, it needs to be shifted from some outside source. Instead of using cable and linkage (heavy) it uses electronic singnals from the driver and tiny motor to make the "throws". Sitting on top of this is software that take engine imputs and can be "told" to make the right gear choices for the occupant of put in auto mode. This does not make the transmission an automatic, it just makes it possible for shifting the gears to be automatic....!






-Garrett

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Old 05-16-2007, 05:19 PM
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If you bring the car to a complete stop and the engine does not stall and die, something is being done to disconnect the engine from the drive wheels. If it is not being done manually by a human in the car, it is being done automatically. This is the essence of what an automatic transmission is.
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:26 PM
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...This does not make the transmission an automatic, it just makes it possible for shifting the gears to be automatic....!
That makes as much sense as saying: "This car has blue paint, but that does not make it a blue car."
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:43 PM
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This does not make the transmission an automatic, it just makes it possible for shifting the gears to be automatic....!

-Garrett


Can someone look up the term "denile."
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:20 PM
jetstream23 jetstream23 is offline
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Can someone look up the term "denile."
Yes, "de nile" means "of the nile" in Spanish. On the other hand, "denial" is a completely different thing.
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:41 PM
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the tedium of you manually shifting


I push the clutch pedal with a manual much less than I push the brake pedal with an automatic.
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