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  #51  
Old 07-12-2007, 08:43 PM
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I find it amusing that you want to give me an economics lesson. Who the He!! do you think you are. I own a business (not that it matters because it really does not). I would bet that, based on your post, (lemonade stands don't count) that you have never owned a business, so save the economics lessons and condascending attitude for someone who needs that crap.

Without a doubt, the product most airlines are delivering today is sub-standard, or as I stated earlier, horrible. Airline employee morale is terrible, listen to the news, and deal with flight attendants that could give a zhit (most but not all). Customer satisfaction is at an all time low. How can you say with a straight face that you do not understand how someone can say that the state of air travel is horrible? Their costs, while high and not sustainable, are no excuse for the poor service they are delivering. Forget the snack, pillow and peanuts (you completely missed that point), I'll settle for reasonable and decent treatment. Is it more costly to respect the customer and care a little? Manage the business and deliver a reasonable product, but I will never buy into the notion that because costs are high they're entitled to deliver a bad product, that spells the end of any business. If there were another alternative (read monopoly), they would quickly be out of business, and that is very definition of a poorly managed business, high costs or not.

I see poor management every time I fly, the simplest of things are not being attended to, it's really quite amazing. It's time for the airlines to get back to the fundamentals of business, deliver a good product under the prevailing economic circumstances. Currently, a vast majority of airline companies are not doing that.
I have owned and managed several businesses. As for the economics lesson, I can go on if you want, because you totally missed my point about the "real" cost of air travel today, which makes modern day air travel something akin to taking the bus. We can talk about the airline industry being a classic cut throat pricing oligopoly with extremely elastic demand in a high fixed costs industry. We could also talk about legacy labor costs and unionized labor practices too. In addition, we could mix in the strict regulatory environment and an industry forced to implement harsher security measures due to international terrorism. To sum it up, the industry does not generate sufficient profits to reward superior employees, upgrade infrastructure and provide a fair return to shareholders. The main justification for capital improvements is cost savings, which brings us back to the new dreamliner.

During the glory days of flying, when only upper class could afford to fly, the standard of service was a lot different. Nowadays flying can be like taking the bus and the level of service reflects that. The continued improvement of aircraft efficiency has brought air travel to the masses with substantially lower fares than anyone dreamed possible 20 to 30 years ago. Airlines have tried the "high service" concept and they were miserable failures, because the vast majority of people will not pay an extra $30 to $50 on their fare to receive superior service. Top tier travelers that want to pay for service will usually travel first class or via private jet.
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  #52  
Old 07-12-2007, 09:01 PM
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Anticipated ticket price reductions
0 percent
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Originally Posted by ___lk___ View Post
cmon, it's 2007. we should be flying in low-earth orbit by now. people are ooh'ing and aaahh-ing over a technological breakthroughs only a bean-counter could love. no wonder this is all we've got.
Something tells me you're not willing to pay what it takes to fly low-earth orbit.
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  #53  
Old 07-13-2007, 07:44 AM
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Something tells me you're not willing to pay what it takes to fly low-earth orbit.
considering it would be in the millions right now on some russian amusement ride of some sort, you're right... kinda my point, actually.
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  #54  
Old 07-14-2007, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Z4luvr View Post
Top tier travelers that want to pay for service will usually travel first class or via private jet.
Agreed, and most the time those flying 1st class, aren't actually paying (directly) for it. They're likely high-mileage Platinum/Elite/Whatever club members and routinely get bumped up.
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  #55  
Old 07-14-2007, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by javelina1 View Post
Where's the classic bumper sticker, "if it ain't a Boeing, I'm not going...."
After flying a 737 and the Airbus A320 i will take the Airbus hands down. The Airbus has so much more room upfront and not having the yoke really helps on the longer trips.
Just my .02 cents.

Z4luvr nice pic of St Marteen

Last edited by fll335; 07-14-2007 at 07:23 PM.
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  #56  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff View Post
...It's time for the airlines to get back to the fundamentals of business, deliver a good product under the prevailing economic circumstances. Currently, a vast majority of airline companies are not doing that.
While I completely agree with your sentiments, it's important to recognize the one aspect of airline service that's exemplary: transporting you safely from point "A" to "B".
In the ideal world our terrific safety record would be matched by excellent service. This is an incredibly capital and labor intensive industry struggling to squeeze a profit from a fare structure that's deceptively cheap by pre-deregulation standards when corrected for inflation.

How can the low-cost carriers offer the best of both worlds? Well, they generally fly one type of aircraft, typically eschew the hub/spoke system, cherry-pick the best routes, and have a junior workforce with fewer benefits. The legacy carriers (United, Delta, American, Continental, US Airways, Northwest) are rapidly devolving by restructuring via bankruptcy and/or steep employee concessions. Unfortunately the byproduct of such revolution creates legions of unhappy employees. No excuses, but a statement of fact.

In short, airline executives have largely reasoned: A- most passengers will contend with occasional misery and return if the fare is reasonable. B- employees, by virtue of the seniority system "golden handcuffs", will sacrifice mightily to save their jobs.
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  #57  
Old 07-15-2007, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by A320 Scott View Post
While I completely agree with your sentiments, it's important to recognize the one aspect of airline service that's exemplary: transporting you safely from point "A" to "B".
In the ideal world our terrific safety record would be matched by excellent service. This is an incredibly capital and labor intensive industry struggling to squeeze a profit from a fare structure that's deceptively cheap by pre-deregulation standards when corrected for inflation.

How can the low-cost carriers offer the best of both worlds? Well, they generally fly one type of aircraft, typically eschew the hub/spoke system, cherry-pick the best routes, and have a junior workforce with fewer benefits. The legacy carriers (United, Delta, American, Continental, US Airways, Northwest) are rapidly devolving by restructuring via bankruptcy and/or steep employee concessions. Unfortunately the byproduct of such revolution creates legions of unhappy employees. No excuses, but a statement of fact.

In short, airline executives have largely reasoned: A- most passengers will contend with occasional misery and return if the fare is reasonable. B- employees, by virtue of the seniority system "golden handcuffs", will sacrifice mightily to save their jobs.
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  #58  
Old 07-15-2007, 09:59 AM
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After flying a 737 and the Airbus A320 i will take the Airbus hands down. The Airbus has so much more room upfront and not having the yoke really helps on the longer trips.
Just my .02 cents.
I totally agree! The A-320 cockpit is quiet, ergonomically designed, and the slide-out tray table is terrific.

Don't know if the A-320 will be as economically viable long-term as the 737.
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  #59  
Old 07-29-2007, 08:50 PM
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Boeing 787 Info & Assembly Simulation Video

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/787/787primer.asp
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  #60  
Old 12-13-2009, 06:54 PM
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Boeing's 787 Dreamliner's first flight window is set to open on 15 December at 10:00 am PT at Paine Field in Everett, Washington.

"With high-speed taxi testing scheduled in the coming days, we're on track for first flight soon thereafter," says Boeing.

This follows the completion of static testing of the side-of-body modification, it adds.

The first flight window opening is dependent upon final internal reviews, taxi test and receipt of the final experimental ticket from the US Federal Aviation Administration, says Boeing.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../pictures.html

http://www.boeing.com/

http://www.newairplane.com/
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  #61  
Old 12-13-2009, 08:39 PM
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Took them long enough
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  #62  
Old 12-14-2009, 06:08 AM
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took them long enough
+787
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  #63  
Old 12-14-2009, 07:48 AM
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The taxi thing went Ok apparently, now waiting for the 1st actual test flight

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=17116
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  #64  
Old 12-15-2009, 04:44 PM
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787 First Flight

http://787firstflight.newairplane.com/ffindex.html



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  #65  
Old 12-15-2009, 05:01 PM
MCSL MCSL is offline
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Boeing says composite material will hold up better to the wear and tear of flight than traditional aluminum alloy. Boeing says it has orders for more than 850 of the planes, which officially sell for around $150 million each.

Even though 787s won't start flying passenger routes until at least 2011, Boeing executives said they hope a successful first flight will at least begin to quell doubts over the future of airplane production at the company.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/15...ner/index.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ing-video.html
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  #66  
Old 12-15-2009, 05:36 PM
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I miss the years when Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am were still in business. Nice jeliner though.
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  #67  
Old 12-15-2009, 07:06 PM
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Please don't tell Moderato this plane is made of plastic.

Thanks in advance.
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  #68  
Old 12-15-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MCSL View Post
Boeing's 787 Dreamliner's first flight window is set to open on 15 December at 10:00 am PT at Paine Field in Everett, Washington.

"With high-speed taxi testing scheduled in the coming days, we're on track for first flight soon thereafter," says Boeing.

This follows the completion of static testing of the side-of-body modification, it adds.

The first flight window opening is dependent upon final internal reviews, taxi test and receipt of the final experimental ticket from the US Federal Aviation Administration, says Boeing.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../pictures.html

http://www.boeing.com/

http://www.newairplane.com/
About m0th3rf0ck1n time.
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  #69  
Old 12-16-2009, 08:33 PM
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I guess we have to finish the flight simulators now that the real airplane is flying. That was a nice two-year break.
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  #70  
Old 12-27-2009, 05:08 PM
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787 Innovations

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/12/25/w...ide/index.html
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  #71  
Old 08-07-2011, 09:36 PM
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Boeing will deliver the 787 Dreamliner to Japan's All Nippon Airways next month in Tokyo.

The plane is scheduled to be the first to carry commercial passengers in the 787 Dreamliner series, which has been plagued by delays but promises to revolutionize air travel.

"We are rolling out the first delivery airplane, the first 787. That's an amazing thing for those who have worked on the program five, six, seven years, here at Boeing and our partners around the world," said Scott Fancher, Boeing's vice president and general manager of the 787 program.

The plane is the first commercial airliner to be made mostly of carbon composites or super durable plastic. Those materials mean a lighter plane that Boeing says could use 20% less fuel than conventional airliners, making way for a more environmentally-friendly and cost effective aircraft option for airlines.

So far, according to Boeing, the manufacturer has more than 800 orders for the 787 Dreamliner, which has a list price of about $200 million per plane.

The interior of the plane also sports a variety of upgrades. Gone are traditional plane window shades. Instead, a button on the window allows passengers to gradually darken their surroundings.

Boeing is developing two Dreamliners. The first version, the 787-8, holds 210 to 250 passengers on routes. A second version, the 787-9, holds 250 to 290 passengers and is designed for longer international routes.

All Nippon Airways has ordered 55 Dreamliners and Mitsuo Morimoto, the airline's senior vice president, said the airline will develop new routes around the Dreamliner's capabilities.

"We plan to use the 787 to expand our business, particularly our international routes. We plan to increase our revenue from international route significantly and the 787 will play an instrumental role in this," Morimoto said.

The airline is considering a route from Japan to the U.S. or Europe that would employ the 787 Dreamliner, Morimoto said.

The airline will inaugurate the 787 Dreamliner on a special charter from Tokyo to Hong Kong this fall, the company said.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/08/07...ner/index.html

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/index.html

http://www.ana.co.jp/promotion/b787/en/





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  #72  
Old 08-08-2011, 04:21 AM
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I can imagine the "real" cost overrun since the plane was rolled out from its first production in 787=July 8, 2007.
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  #73  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:50 PM
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I was attending a race at the Toledo, OH airport on July 4th weekend when the new 747-8 cargo plane made a landing and then took off again for certification testing. It was an impressive sight
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  #74  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:08 AM
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How ever pretty is maybe on the outside and in the cockpit, back in steerage it will look just like any another tube crammed with seats. I've flown in all sorts of planes over the years and the type of plane has little impact on enjoyment of the flight. Its like arguing what type of bus is best.
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  #75  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cwsqbm View Post
How ever pretty is maybe on the outside and in the cockpit, back in steerage it will look just like any another tube crammed with seats. I've flown in all sorts of planes over the years and the type of plane has little impact on enjoyment of the flight. Its like arguing what type of bus is best.
I'm with you. All the fancy stuff on the inside does not appeal to me. An airplane is a tool that gets me from point A to B quickly. It's not like a cruise ship that I want to hang around and enjoy while I'm getting there. Yea, I speak like a guy who is a poor SOB.
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Last edited by Dave 330i; 08-09-2011 at 05:38 AM.
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