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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 1 Series / 2 Series > E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)

E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)
BMWs throw back to the iconic 2002, with a renewed form and function. The smallest car in BMW's line up but still packs a punch. Available in coupe or convertible, powered by either an inline 6 in the 128 or the twin turbo rocket sled 135.

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  #51  
Old 07-13-2007, 02:09 PM
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if they build an M version, it will be heavier, not lighter
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2007, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RedBread View Post
First, Audi/VW has never built a light car. The A3 3.2 (comparable motor size, if not power to the 135i) is listed unladen at 3660 and the 2.0 fwd is listed unladen at 3329. The GTI is listed at 3100 pounds on Edmunds, I don't know if that's unladen or not. But the more comparable R32 will be well over 3500 pounds.

Heavier cars, sad as it is, are safer just because of that. Look at what happens in minor accidents to Elises, or even Miatae (I had one, great car, but they don't survive accidents well). They're not as much fun to drive, my buddy had an Exige that was great to track, but pushing it through traffic was intimidating. Camry's door handles are higher than the roof of the car. You wouldn't survive an accident with a Suzuki sedan, much less a Suburban. Further, close the door on an S-Class and try the same thing in an E-Class. Same thing for small bumps. Weight is frequently a result of added feel and the perception of quality. It inversely effects how fun a car is to drive, but it does gererally make them safer and adds to most peoples' perception of quality. My porky 3050 pound M Coupe sure feels more solid and luxurious than my Miata did, but it's seldomly more fun to drive.

I do agree that it's unfortunate that the 135i is shaping up to be so heavy, relative to the 335i, and that single fact is keeping me from getting in line for ED of one. Oddly to some, the alternative is a Cayman. Just because you can afford a certain car doesn't mean that cheaper cars can't appeal to you at the same time, or that you must run out and buy all that you can afford. The 135i on paper offers a better all around package to me than an E92 M3 and should be more fun to drive, but right now, my instinct tells me the Cayman will still be better, and if someone takes a year's worth of depreciation for me, they're not that different in price.

Ben
I don't what world you guys are living in when bringing up the Cayman as an alternative to a 135i. No, a used 06 Cayman is not even close to what a brand new 135 will cost:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...ce=&cardist=25
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...ce=&cardist=40

2006 Cayman S's are still fetching $53-59k!!!
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  #53  
Old 07-13-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. The Edge View Post
if they build an M version, it will be heavier, not lighter
You're probably right, but why can't they just give us what we want? Take a 135, strip out most of the sound deadening material, ditch the power windows, delete the A/C unit, put a lighter exhuast, lighter wheels, add a carbon fiber roof and hood, and put slightly larger turbos in, and boom- there's your M1(I know, most people beleive you can't call it this, but that was discussed in an earlier thread)! It makes no sense to me that they are comparing the current 1 with the 2002 when the 1 is so bloated and over technified. I understand the marketing ploy, but c'mon!
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  #54  
Old 07-13-2007, 03:08 PM
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You're probably right, but why can't they just give us what we want?
because 'we' = about 10 people
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  #55  
Old 07-13-2007, 03:57 PM
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BMW could do a limited run of like 5000 of them like VW has and is doing with the new R32. I'm sure they could easily sell that number in the States and it wouldn't cost them that much more to produce than a 135.
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  #56  
Old 07-13-2007, 05:04 PM
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BMW could do a limited run of like 5000
5000????? BMW doesn't sell 5000 Z4s in a year.


Mazda tried this with the '03 Club Sport NB Miata. AC delete. PS delete. Radio Delete Windblocker delete. Convertible top delete (you could fit a hard top or just have no top). You get the idea.
Mazda made 50 of them at the beginning of the 2003 model year. May 2003 Mazda offered a $2000 rebate.

When I was shopping for my 2006, I came accross unsold 2003 club sports.

Mazda learned. The '06 Club Sport has AC delete and no metallic colors. Other than that it is the same as a base car. Just an advertiser now.


In other Markets Mazda still sells the NR-A. Not in the US though.
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  #57  
Old 07-13-2007, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by germanblood View Post
You're probably right, but why can't they just give us what we want? Take a 135, strip out most of the sound deadening material, ditch the power windows, delete the A/C unit, put a lighter exhuast, lighter wheels, add a carbon fiber roof and hood, and put slightly larger turbos in, and boom- there's your M1(I know, most people beleive you can't call it this, but that was discussed in an earlier thread)! It makes no sense to me that they are comparing the current 1 with the 2002 when the 1 is so bloated and over technified. I understand the marketing ploy, but c'mon!
BMW could do this, but I don't think they want the BMW name on a new vehicle that is harsh-riding, noisy, and uncomfortable even if it goes like a bat out of Hades.

Heck, BMWNA won't even offer models here in the US that BMWAG already makes and sells to the rest of the world becaust they don't think US buyers will buy them.

It's all about what the marketing people believe and has no relation to reality.
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  #58  
Old 07-13-2007, 05:53 PM
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That's fine, but for the umpteenth time: I don't know about your car, but mine isn't going anywhere without me (or somebody) driving it. So it makes sense to leave the driver in there.

Especially since all of BMW's quoted curb weights include a driver. For the sake of a fair comparison with BMW's other cars (with E46, E90, Z4 etc) it's simpler to just use the quoted weights. Though if you're comparing it to a Mazda, Lexus, etc, then removing the driver is fine.

It'd be nice if BMW were as precise and clear as Porsche in this matter. For US-spec cars, Porsche quotes standard (DIN) curb weights. On their German language site, they quote both DIN and EEC/EU guideline weight (DIN + driver/luggage).
Well, not many really put the driver in there, so I chose to go by the more common, and hence more communicable standard of removing the driver's weight. Trust me, I understand how BMW does their weighing system and I can even say I agree with it to a degree, but I won't pass along their rather different interpretation of things when people might think of it differently (and thus become confused).
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  #59  
Old 07-13-2007, 08:21 PM
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3287 isn't *that* heavy. It's roughly E36 weight for a car roughly E36-sized.
According to 1addicts.com, it's going to be 3400 plus pounds.

That's pretty awful for a car that size, IMO.

Ed
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  #60  
Old 07-13-2007, 08:23 PM
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5000????? BMW doesn't sell 5000 Z4s in a year.

You're kidding, right? Bmw sells way more than 5000 Z4's in a year in the US alone

Ed
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  #61  
Old 07-14-2007, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by EdCT View Post
According to 1addicts.com, it's going to be 3400 plus pounds.

That's pretty awful for a car that size, IMO.

Ed
It's also WRONG.

The guys at 1 addicts must be converting the "EU Unladen" weight published in the UK brochure. I forget the exact amounts, but that weight standard includes roughly 200 lbs for a passenger and like 20 lbs for luggage.

To properly compare apples to apples (as our US weight standards don't add weight for those things), you have to back it off. When you do that prior to converting to lbs (backing off the correct kg weights for passenger and luggage) you end up with the 3274 lb weight.

Should it weigh even less? Sure. But saying it weighs 3400+ is simply WRONG.
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  #62  
Old 07-14-2007, 05:36 AM
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You're kidding, right? Bmw sells way more than 5000 Z4's in a year in the US alone

Ed
We're both wrong. BMW sold 5072 in 2006. I was remembering the individual numbers, not all Z4 variants combined. Sales haven't been 'way more than 5000' since 2004.

Looks like they will break 5000 this year although June '07 sales were very low.

http://home.att.net/~fdmeloan/Z4_Series_Sales.pdf

I wonder if BMW is loosing money on the coupes? I also wonder if the 135i will take away sales from the Z4 3.0si coupe.

In any case I still think 5000 "135i CSL" for the US market is way too high. Mazda couldn't sell 50 Club Sport Miatas even with a $2000 rebate.
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  #63  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:13 AM
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We're both wrong. BMW sold 5072 in 2006. I was remembering the individual numbers, not all Z4 variants combined. Sales haven't been 'way more than 5000' since 2004.

Looks like they will break 5000 this year although June '07 sales were very low.

http://home.att.net/~fdmeloan/Z4_Series_Sales.pdf

I wonder if BMW is loosing money on the coupes? I also wonder if the 135i will take away sales from the Z4 3.0si coupe.

In any case I still think 5000 "135i CSL" for the US market is way too high. Mazda couldn't sell 50 Club Sport Miatas even with a $2000 rebate.
I think the goal was to sell 300,000 Z4's over the car's seven year model cycle. Whether they get there or not certainly isn't my problem - I did my part, I bought one

As for the 5k a year figure, that is in keeping with a car of this type and price class, Porsche, Mercedes etc sell in roughly the same numbers, they're limited cars for a limited buyer.

Ed
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  #64  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:18 AM
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It's also WRONG.

The guys at 1 addicts must be converting the "EU Unladen" weight published in the UK brochure. I forget the exact amounts, but that weight standard includes roughly 200 lbs for a passenger and like 20 lbs for luggage.

To properly compare apples to apples (as our US weight standards don't add weight for those things), you have to back it off. When you do that prior to converting to lbs (backing off the correct kg weights for passenger and luggage) you end up with the 3274 lb weight.

Should it weigh even less? Sure. But saying it weighs 3400+ is simply WRONG.
It gets confusing, doesn't it? The US brochure for the 335i coupe shows an unladen weight of 3500+ lbs, yet C&D measured it at just over 3300lbs

If the 135 comes in at 30k or just under, it'll be a killer in the market place, otherwise it may do well initially, but I suspect its poor value when compared to the alternatives will hurt it - especially the company's own E92, which according to C&D, weighs in only around 100lbs more (yes, it's more expensive, but it's a lot more car too).

Ed
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  #65  
Old 07-14-2007, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by TD View Post
It's also WRONG.

The guys at 1 addicts must be converting the "EU Unladen" weight published in the UK brochure. I forget the exact amounts, but that weight standard includes roughly 200 lbs for a passenger and like 20 lbs for luggage.

To properly compare apples to apples (as our US weight standards don't add weight for those things), you have to back it off. When you do that prior to converting to lbs (backing off the correct kg weights for passenger and luggage) you end up with the 3274 lb weight.

Should it weigh even less? Sure. But saying it weighs 3400+ is simply WRONG.
Ok, but if you do the same for my E46, it weighs in at 2,988 lbs. The E36 sedans will come in at a bit over 2900 lbs. An E46 330i is ~3130 (driver plus luggage is 75 kg/165 lbs; I personally just lump all of it into driver).

The 1 series is approximately the size of an E36/E46 compact (hatch), and yet weighs 300 lbs more than some of the sedans. It's a porker. Period.

There's nothing "wrong" with saying it weighs 3400+ lbs. That's what it weighs on the road when it's actually moving (though, since we're not including options, and the average American is probably 50+ lbs heavier than the 165 lb driver the EU uses, it's probably more accurate to say 3500+ ). It's only "wrong" relative to the way most cars (in the US) are weighed.

I just find this funny, because these sorts of comments never seemed to pop up much when the E90 was released, but they're almost central to discussion of the 1er. It's as though people are afraid to admit that this thing is only 150 lbs lighter than the 335i.
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  #66  
Old 07-14-2007, 10:26 AM
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It gets confusing, doesn't it? The US brochure for the 335i coupe shows an unladen weight of 3500+ lbs, yet C&D measured it at just over 3300lbs

If the 135 comes in at 30k or just under, it'll be a killer in the market place, otherwise it may do well initially, but I suspect its poor value when compared to the alternatives will hurt it - especially the company's own E92, which according to C&D, weighs in only around 100lbs more (yes, it's more expensive, but it's a lot more car too).

Ed
Car and Driver has consistently been at or very close to the official BMW NA figure of 3571 pounds for the 335i in their previous tests. This one number (in the current issue) is a typo, or an arithmetic mistake made when adding the numbers generated from each corner - which is how they do it "in the field".

Like many of us, I have high hopes for the 135i - but it'll still be something of a porker out there, based on recent history.

Bruce
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:48 AM
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The E39 M5 was like 3750 lbs. We're getting close w/ BMW's low end.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:04 AM
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What really bugs me is here in the states, we get all the high-priced, highly optioned, least configured BMW's. The company, in its need for a "business case" gives us the least choice.

The rest of world can get any 1 series it wants; three doors, five doors a hatch; any engine combo and something I'd pay extra for - a friggin' CLOTH INTERIOR!!! They even get "individual" colors and trim.......we get mostly bland. WTF

So, we tend to buy higher because the value's almost always there - I was looking at the differences between the content of the 128 vs the 135 - BMW will decontent the 128 just enough to make you want the 135, except it'll probably be priced right up there alongside the 328.

Me, I'd prefer the 328 coupe over any of the one series to be sold here - it'll weigh about the same, be more comfortable, look better, handle really well and I'd never have to worry about "limp-home mode"

Ed
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  #69  
Old 07-14-2007, 11:05 AM
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It's as though people are afraid to admit that this thing is only 150 lbs lighter than the 335i.
Or some people just simply want to write the car off before it has ever been driven by comparing it to 3 series models of the past that happen to weigh less than it, even though it will outperform those cars (even most of the M3 models) in every category. I feel like I could almost conduct psych research on some of the members here and how people can use a single statistic, the weight, to completely write off a car.

I don't know what people were expecting. But let us realize, so maybe we can move beyond this subject, that the 135i will be lighter than the 350z, EVO, Mustang GT, A3 3.2, and STi. The only contemporary competitors that weighs in less are the RX8 and C30. Also realize, only the EVO, A3, RX8, STi, and C30 can fit 4 people.

A porker? I guess if you compare it to the E46 330i, but that is kind of a flawed comparison because of the obvious gap in performance levels (and thus corresponding hardware) the cars are capable of. Otherwise, it is one of the lighter offering in the marketplace. It is like calling the 997 GT3 a porker because the 73' RS 2.7 was a couple hundred kilos lighter......Things have changed folks, we have safety standards that require side impact beams, the marketplace demands significantly more powerful engines, and the brake and wheel setups are WAY larger than they were 20-30 years ago.

Cayman/Cayman S you say? Well, those cars are much more expensive. They are also pretty tight inside compared to how the 1 series will be and lack back seats of any kind. Are they more focused and more performance oriented? Of course....

Do I wish the 135i was lighter? Sure, I think everyone dreams of that, but at this price point, it is just not possible. Everyone complains about a possible price of 35K base, but is that really THAT unreasonable? Of the cars closest performance competitors (350Z, STi, EVO, GT), only the GT will come in appreciably less expensive (were not talking about the Shelby GT, which at 36k is the closest competitor). This car is going to offer E46 M3 levels of performance for 35k, who would complain about that?
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:33 PM
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Or some people just simply want to write the car off before it has ever been driven by comparing it to 3 series models of the past that happen to weigh less than it, even though it will outperform those cars (even most of the M3 models) in every category. I feel like I could almost conduct psych research on some of the members here and how people can use a single statistic, the weight, to completely write off a car.
I wouldn't write it off simply because of the weight or any other single factor. Actually, I've expected it to be heavy all along; even the stripped four cylinder models currently in production weigh in at around 3000 lbs (per EU spec).

And that's all assuming I've written it off. I'm just naturally pessimistic because BMW has not produced a new model that I like all that much for the better part of a decade now. Other manufacturers have.

Quote:
This car is going to offer E46 M3 levels of performance for 35k, who would complain about that?
Because nobody (at least not me) is complaining about performance. I don't think I've ever complained about the 335i not having enough power (though I have moaned about the fact that BMW is still using 225 tires and an open differential on a car that has ballooned in terms of both weight and power). I will step in when somebody says something truly absurd, like "it handles better (i.e. is more agile than) than a Z4." Come on, don't they teach physics in this country anymore?

It's kind of silly to use performance alone as a sole determinant for value, isn't it? Considering a high end shifter cart will easily outrun most street cars on the track, at autox, or even at the drag strip.

From what I've been reading, most of the concerns about weight (among other things) have nothing to do with lap times or track performance, but how fun the car is to drive. It's classic British roadster syndrome: a great feel alone can make a car immensely entertaining, even when woefully underpowered. There are two basic schools of thought: people who care about numbers (which makes no sense to me unless you're competing on a pro circuit), and people who just want to be lost in the experience of driving the car, no matter how slow or fast it is. I belong to the latter group. I want something that I can enjoy (to some extent or another) at 1/10ths as well as 10/10ths.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:24 AM
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[QUOTE=LonghornTX;2506730]I don't know what people were expecting. But let us realize, so maybe we can move beyond this subject, that the 135i will be lighter than the 350z, EVO, Mustang GT, A3 3.2, and STi. The only contemporary competitors that weighs in less are the RX8 and C30. Also realize, only the EVO, A3, RX8, STi, and C30 can fit 4 people.

A porker? I guess if you compare it to the E46 330i, but that is kind of a flawed comparison because of the obvious gap in performance levels (and thus corresponding hardware) the cars are capable of. Otherwise, it is one of the lighter offering in the marketplace. It is like calling the 997 GT3 a porker because the 73' RS 2.7 was a couple hundred kilos lighter......Things have changed folks, we have safety standards that require side impact beams, the marketplace demands significantly more powerful engines, and the brake and wheel setups are WAY larger than they were 20-30 years ago.


Thanks for the excellent perspective! I didn't even think about comparing the 135's weight to it's competitors.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
From what I've been reading, most of the concerns about weight (among other things) have nothing to do with lap times or track performance, but how fun the car is to drive. It's classic British roadster syndrome: a great feel alone can make a car immensely entertaining, even when woefully underpowered. There are two basic schools of thought: people who care about numbers (which makes no sense to me unless you're competing on a pro circuit), and people who just want to be lost in the experience of driving the car, no matter how slow or fast it is. I belong to the latter group. I want something that I can enjoy (to some extent or another) at 1/10ths as well as 10/10ths.
Allthough it would be great if it were lighter, I agree that as long as it's as fun to drive as were all hoping it will be, then the weight concerns will be replaced by smiles on our faces as we rip through our favorite, local section of assphalt.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:20 PM
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It's kind of silly to use performance alone as a sole determinant for value, isn't it? Considering a high end shifter cart will easily outrun most street cars on the track, at autox, or even at the drag strip.
Why not? Your shifter cart analogy is somewhat flawed because no one would buy a shifter cart as their daily driver....

A lot of people want the most for their dollar (including me) at this price point, performance AND feel wise. That is why we are looking at the 135i and not the G37, for example, because the 135i promises superior performance, and if the 335i is a judge of how the 135i will be, superior feel as well.

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From what I've been reading, most of the concerns about weight (among other things) have nothing to do with lap times or track performance, but how fun the car is to drive. It's classic British roadster syndrome: a great feel alone can make a car immensely entertaining, even when woefully underpowered. There are two basic schools of thought: people who care about numbers (which makes no sense to me unless you're competing on a pro circuit), and people who just want to be lost in the experience of driving the car, no matter how slow or fast it is. I belong to the latter group. I want something that I can enjoy (to some extent or another) at 1/10ths as well as 10/10ths.
Weight has EVERYTHING to do with lap times and track performance. It literally affects every aspect of how a car performs, but I am sure you already knew that. I guess I am confused by your statement, maybe a little extra clarification?

Any why do your two schools of thought have to be so diametrically opposed to each other? Can't there be people who care about both performance AND feel? Afterall, that is the target customer for BMW.....

If you are so concerned about feel in your ride, why go with an e46? I mean they are great cars that have plenty of "feel", but there are certainly many other cars out there that have a more intimate connection with the driver like any Miata or even a last gen MR2 Spyder. Even E30s make a more intimate connection.

I guess I would rather be optimistic than be a pessimist because a pessimist, IMO, always has an easier time justifying his feelings about something than someone who expected so much and was delivered so little.

But, hey, each to their own . I am loving the discourse
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Old 07-17-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
From what I've been reading, most of the concerns about weight (among other things) have nothing to do with lap times or track performance, but how fun the car is to drive. It's classic British roadster syndrome: a great feel alone can make a car immensely entertaining, even when woefully underpowered. There are two basic schools of thought: people who care about numbers (which makes no sense to me unless you're competing on a pro circuit), and people who just want to be lost in the experience of driving the car, no matter how slow or fast it is. I belong to the latter group. I want something that I can enjoy (to some extent or another) at 1/10ths as well as 10/10ths.
I cannot fully agree, the Evo is heavier than my ZHP yet more entertaining to drive.

I only felt the ZHP's extra weight over an E36 M3 at the track, where the ZHP was thirstier, harder on the tires/brakes, slower through some transitions than the M3. In normal driving, it doesn't feel appreciably heavier to me.

A Cayman S would weigh in at 3200lbs with driver, a 135 at 3440lbs. There's a difference, sure - but not immense. I'd gladly accept the 200lbs difference if it means my son can ride in the back seat.

I think a lot of it will come down to how the 135 is tuned. Sharp and alert - with that cracker engine people will love it. Same as the E46 M3, which was no lightweight yet people loved it. Heck, my wife's X3 Sport is FUN to drive, even though it weighs over 4000lbs...
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Old 07-17-2007, 01:56 PM
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I just hope the 135i isn't packed full of sound deadening like the E92 loaner car I had - didn't like that at all, not being able to hear the engine or exhaust.
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