So I drove an E30 M3 tonight...

Originally posted by pdz
yeah, i definitely think the straight six has more things going for it than the high strung M motor. i betcha the M motor also needs valve adjustments every 5k miles or 10k miles?

For commuting, absolutely. The little inline inline six has more low end torque and is certainly more reliable and maintenace-free than the S14 in the M3. But this isn't about daily driving, remember?

The M motor may very well require valve adjustment, but don't hold me to that. I know it's required of the M5 engine of that era but I actually haven't heard it done much on the M3s.

Yes, the S14 needs periodic valve adjustment. All "real" M engines do (with the possible exception of the S62--not sure about that one). Yet another reason to be glad we have "fake" M engines in our E36s.

http://e30m3performance.com/maintena...adjustment.htm

i was pretty sure that the S52 was one of the first M engines to not need periodic valve adjustments.

blech.

going through the pains of a discontinued engine myself, i really wouldn't wish this on anyone. high maintenance motors are such a headache.

that e46m3 is looking pretty swell sometimes.

Originally posted by JST
Yes, the S14 needs periodic valve adjustment. All "real" M engines do (with the possible exception of the S62--not sure about that one). Yet another reason to be glad we have "fake" M engines in our E36s.

http://e30m3performance.com/maintena...adjustment.htm

Yes, the 325 engine-turned-M3 engine has its performance problems compared to the Euro version, but it's quite robust and worry-free. Great little engine, if lacking hp.

Originally posted by pdz
i was pretty sure that the S52 was one of the first M engines to not need periodic valve adjustments.

blech.

going through the pains of a discontinued engine myself, i really wouldn't wish this on anyone. high maintenance motors are such a headache.

that e46m3 is looking pretty swell sometimes.

The S54 requires valve adjustments as part of Inspection I, per the maintenance schedule on BMW Owner's Circle:

Engine Compartment
Read out diagnostic system.
Check and adjust valves.
Check engine cooling system/heater hose connections for leaks. Check coolant level and antifreeze protection level; add coolant if necessary.
Note:Coolant must be replaced every 4 years (time interval begins from vehicle's production date).
Check level of brake and clutch fluid in reservoir. Add fluid if required.
Replace brake fluid every 2 years (timing interval begins from vehicle's production date).*
Check windshield washer fluid level and antifreeze protection. Fill up and/or correct if necessary.
Check air conditioner operation.
Replace microfilter.
Note: reduce replacement interval in dusty operating conditions.
Reset Service Indicator.

It looks like the S62 does not need this service (gack--imagine doing a valve adjustment on a DOHC 32V V8).

does anyone ever know what happened to the general hubbub over jim conforti's $2000 cam kit that was supposed to make the S52 engines come closer to 300hp?

just curious. haven't followed it and didn't know if those claims were flat out wrong or what.

btw: i would take a 1995 OBD I m3 over the prior generation M3 any day just for the torque. low speed corners leading onto straights are absolutely no fun at all in the e30m3. you never catch up until the straightaway ends and the curves come again but that is pure frustration at the track.

Originally posted by pdz
does anyone ever know what happened to the general hubbub over jim conforti's $2000 cam kit that was supposed to make the S52 engines come closer to 300hp?

just curious. haven't followed it and didn't know if those claims were flat out wrong or what.

For the most part, the cams do work as advertised. There is some controversy over it but most reports on bimmerforums are positive. Of course, $2000 will get you the parts, but count on another grand or so for installation.

Originally posted by Jetfire
For the most part, the cams do work as advertised. There is some controversy over it but most reports on bimmerforums are positive. Of course, $2000 will get you the parts, but count on another grand or so for installation.

well, kudos to JC for getting the kit out. am sure it's a quality kit, at the very least. i don't really trust these stroker motor kits from racing dynamics or this newfound plethora of supercharger kits on the cheap from tuners i've never heard of before.

The M3 is not nearly as bad in commutes as people think it is. It is actually just as easy to drive as any other car. I will admit, however, that you need open road to have any fun.

Jetfire: I suggest that you take a ride in a M3 with someone who really trusts the car. When I took a test drive, I was not overly impressed. However, when the P/O took the wheel, I was amazed at the car's capabilities. The key is confidence...the car is very nuetral so it feels like the rear will swing out, but it won't. I am talking about 90deg. right handers flat out at 45 mph. (of course this is with H&R/ Bilsteins).

As for the $15K rule, it is a good indicator, but it is definitely not the case for every car. If the P/O has done a lot of work, then you should be fine. Example: My car has about 175K on the odo. but I have not had many issues. The P/O had a complete rebuild at 100K and the clutch at 150K. So far, I have had to replace transmission mounts, reverse light switch, front strut towers, and
re-weld the rear sway-bar link. I also replaced the timing tensioner for peace of mind. Not too bad, in my opinion.

If you want, I can find a list of things to check when buying. Let me know.

Chris

I missed this thread as I was on vacation when all was posted...thanks to the last poster posting that brought it up to the top.

Note the cars I have. I have an E30 M3 2.5 and an E36 M3.

THis will be the first of 4 or 5 posts I will reply to :-)

Originally posted by Jetfire
And anyway, with some money put into engine mods, it's possible to create the 2.5L engine from the European M3 Evo Sport. Think roughly 230 hp in a 2800-lb package.

Any S14 can be made into a 2.5 (mine started out life as a regular US spec E30 M3). Also FYI the E3 (aka Sport Evo- 600 made never imported to the US) made 238hp. My car has 199 hp at the rear wheels and it isn't tuned right (199 is equal to the E3 in stock form). I know another local E30 M3 with a 2.5 that is putting out nearly 210 at the rear wheels (or around 250 hp at the flywheel- or 100 hp/L).

Originally posted by nate328Ci
I can think of several cars off the top of my head that could beat it in feel. If we are talking about lap times, I wouldn't be suprised if a 2.5L E46 could pass one. I'm sure the M3 would be more fun though...

There is no way in hell a 2.5L E46 could keep up with an E30 M3 at the track (equal driver of course). The E46 weighs more and has less HP and roguhly the same torque. I have seen reaces betwen E36 M3 and E30 M3s and the E30 puts up a good fight on technical tracks with short straights.

Originally posted by pdz
or track down a 1995 M3 LTW that you know has an especially strong, factory-certified engine which is closer to 240hp than it is 225hp.

Are you talking RWHP or flywheel numbers? Is RWHP the LTWs are in the 230ish range. A normal stock 95 M3 will be in the high 200s low 210s at the wheels. My 95 (bone stock mind you) had 222 RWHP. It will be dynod next week stock again for 1-2 runs and with a JimC chip for 1-2 runs. I am hoping for 230.

Originally posted by pdz
there are some e30m3s that ask as high as 17,000 with "low" miles in the back of roundel sometimes.

but most seem to be in the 9800-12,000 range. the issue i'd have are: at this age, wear and tear items flat out need replacing because of heat cycling plus age. gaskets for sure, hoses, shocks, bearings.....it's a hidden (well, not so hidden) nightmare in cost. it would take at least $7000 to get it into reliable, hi-po form. and you'd be spending most of that money just checking compression and getting valves, seats, valve guides and ports into shape.

yuck.

e30m3 people are brave people.

Nothing a good prepurchase inspection at a competent shop would find. Take what they find and make an offer accordingly. The generl $15k rule of thumb really does apply but there are always exceptions.

Brave? Eh, not really. If you can do the work yourself (believe it or not I am learning on my E30- including installing Schricks) it isn't that bad but you have to start out with a car that doesn't need everything thrown at it.

FYI the local 2.5 I quoted earlier (210 RWHP) is for sale at 16k IIRC. Good car for the money IMO.

Originally posted by Michael330
I also hear that inline 4 in M3s were not as realiable as inline 6 found in 325is. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

They have their quirks and stuff that you need to pay attention to but the S14 isn't down that much on reliability- plus the trade off in power is worth it IMO. However if you do have a problem with an S14 the price to fix it is definitely higher than the 325 engine.

Originally posted by pdz
yeah, i definitely think the straight six has more things going for it than the high strung M motor. i betcha the M motor also needs valve adjustments every 5k miles or 10k miles?

It is roughly every 15k miles. I don't know why people are so scared of valve adjustment they are SIMPLE. I mean VERY SIMPLE. The problem is having the shim kit (about $400) and the special tool to get the shims out (around $100 or so from what I hear). The only thing you absolutely have to have (or borrow) is the is the tool. You can measure everything and know exactly what shims you need and can go out and buy exactly what you need (at about $5 per shim). The nice thing is you can take it from one valve and put it in another is the size matches.

Originally posted by Jetfire
The M motor may very well require valve adjustment, but don't hold me to that. I know it's required of the M5 engine of that era but I actually haven't heard it done much on the M3s.

The S14 (E30 M3) is the same engine as the S88 and S38 (E28 M5, E24 M6 and E34 M5) minus 2 cylinders. They require the same services. They also share some parts.

Originally posted by pdz
yeah, i definitely think the straight six has more things going for it than the high strung M motor. i betcha the M motor also needs valve adjustments every 5k miles or 10k miles?

There are M people and there are non-M people.

M people understand the enjoyment of driving an almost race car on the street. Non-M people prefer the comfort of the normal BMW car.

M people like a car on the edge, non-M people prefer a more sane car.

M people want everything a car can give and then more. Non-M people are happy with starting with a lesser level of perofmrance (although many spend LOTS of money trying to get close to M performance).

M people don't look at the price (at least not very hard ), they just have to have it. Non-M people worry about cost, and payments, etc.

There are non-M people driving Ms and M people driving non-Ms (there is a basic level of cost we can't escape).

Bottom line, I WANT, NEED, MUST HAVE at some point, an E30 M3.

Originally posted by Pinecone
There are M people and there are non-M people.



There are non-M people driving Ms and M people driving non-Ms (there is a basic level of cost we can't escape).

Bottom line, I WANT, NEED, MUST HAVE at some point, an E30 M3.

Excellent analysis Mr. the Cone. :-)

Originally posted by Jetfire
...The owner said that he much preferred the stock 15" wheels with Falkens for grip.

If you get an e30 M3, one of the nice simple upgrades I see is when guys put some of the stock e36 M3 17" wheels from the 95's on them.

Originally posted by scottn2retro
If you get an e30 M3, one of the nice simple upgrades I see is when guys put some of the stock e36 M3 17" wheels from the 95's on them.

"Upgrading" to 17s is an asthetic upgrade not a performance upgrade.

I agree with everything Bruce said. The E30 M3 is the type of car that you really can't enjoy unless you are on the track. The E30 M3 is not the best car to get if you are looking for comfort and performance but get it flogging through some twisties at 6000 rpm and you'll be in heaven. Part of the reason I bought my car was because of the heritage of the car. I like the idea of owning a homologating special that is appreciating in value.

Well, as soon as I sell my '99, I'm on the lookout for a nice E30. But first I have to sell. Argh...

Originally posted by Bruce
Excellent analysis Mr. the Cone. :-)

bruce & cone:

i am no longer an M person, and i eschewed the e30m3, as much as i adore that car having a twirl at the wheel on the track and plenty on the street, because of the reasons i have listed.

(a) 4 cylinders, no matter how high the HP is in the powerband, just isn't enough for me. it has be at least six, and a six with decent displacement

(b) the car is a rare old bird. rare --> parts are increasingly hard to get. old --> chassis rigidit in comparison to even the e36m3 suffers, let alone in comparison to an e46.

(c) the car is racing technology from the mid 80s. HP high in the powerband to take advantage of gearing, but at a cost of power down low. modern "racing"-derived powerplants have valve timing to give adequate power in the midrange but still breathe up top. my example? i drive the last of the aircooled 911s. it breathes well up top, but midrange lacks because it lacks a flat torque curve. the new M96 powerplants, as works in progress as they are, breathe well, but have oodles of power everywhere.

and now that i've sampled many different cars, i have a much keener sense of what i think i want to make my driving more about my limitations as a driver and less so about issues with the car.