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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 1 Series / 2 Series > E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)

E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)
BMWs throw back to the iconic 2002, with a renewed form and function. The smallest car in BMW's line up but still packs a punch. Available in coupe or convertible, powered by either an inline 6 in the 128 or the twin turbo rocket sled 135.

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  #1  
Old 07-23-2007, 10:52 AM
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Roundel claims M powered 1 to come

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=802

Some of you may get your wish.
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2007, 01:14 PM
LS2 MN6 LS2 MN6 is offline
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Hmmm.

Well I need a new car next fall. So it may still be a 135i.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:48 PM
akak1997 akak1997 is offline
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To make a M1 possible, it'll have to be priced around the E46 M3's price, that's around 48k base. My guess for the 135i will be priced around 35-38k, so the M1 will be approx 10k more. What can they possibly do to make an M1 attractive? The 135i has the I6 TT that can be easily mod to get more power (chip+exhaust 1-2k), add suspension(1-2k) + brakes(1-2k) + LSD(2k) should cost less than 10k. That would make the 135i a serious performer.

We'll probably not gonna see a boosted M1, so it's most likely powered by the E46 I6. So if it's priced at around 48k, I think I might as well go find myself a used E46 M3, coz it won't be much different (performance wise). Unless they make the M1 <3000lb or else it'll be a tough sale.

Edit: According to what Gerhard Richter said in an interview w/ Edmunds. M1 is possible, but no plans yet.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=121767

Last edited by akak1997; 07-23-2007 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:59 PM
BEE-EM-VAY BEE-EM-VAY is offline
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my guess is that they'll put the new m3 v8 engine in the m1
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2007, 05:04 PM
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my guess is that they'll put the new m3 v8 engine in the m1
The rumor is an updated version of the S54 3.2L six. It would depend on how updated it is - is it aluminum block, so it'll be lighter? Direct injection? That would be interesting.

I don't think the M1 would sell that well with just the same old heavy S54 in it.
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Old 07-23-2007, 07:23 PM
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I dont think it would do well considering the tune-ability of the 135i.
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Old 07-23-2007, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
The rumor is an updated version of the S54 3.2L six. It would depend on how updated it is - is it aluminum block, so it'll be lighter? Direct injection? That would be interesting.

I don't think the M1 would sell that well with just the same old heavy S54 in it.
Not much they can do to update the S54. The new V8 is a bit lighter than the S54, so I wouldn't call the S54 heavy...it is, but relatively to what else they could use it is not.
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:08 PM
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It's funny, when most people describe what they expect or would like to see, they end up describing the current Z4M Coupe...

We'll see what happens. I would've thought they'd stop production on the M coupe a year before an M1 hits the US market, but there's a rumour over on ZPost that says they already stopped taking orders on the Z4M cars... If they did drop the Z4M, perhaps the new M1 will take it's place in the market, and be the welcome relief to the E92 M3. I can't see them putting the V8 in the M1, as it would make the M3 less potent in the lineup. I can see a lighter S54 engine, or some kind of variant... I guess time will tell...
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:22 AM
akhbhaat akhbhaat is offline
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The S54 apparently failed the latest EU emissions regs. I wouldn't be surprised if Z4M production has halted.

Quite frankly, we're talking about an engine that has been in production, largely unchanged, for about eight years. It's probably time for it to go anyhow. The regular sixes will barely go four or five without some sort of major update or redesign.

You know what I think they should do with an M1? How do you give the thing a legitimate reason to exist when it's so easy to pull power out of the N54 models?

Answer: four cylinders! Forget raw power - cut as much weight as possible; focus on power-to-weight ratios over raw power. Composite body panels, trim the fat (power seats etc), and a four cylinder engine - turbocharge it, even, though therein lies the rub (because I doubt the M division would even consider that). Give it an aggressive clutch, shifter, possibly even racing buckets - look at what Porsche does with the GT3, as an example. Make it completely different in character from the 135i - possibly even a modern throwback to the E30 M3. It would be a niche market car anyhow, and it would be hard to slot between the 135i/335i and M3 in terms of power/acceleration without some cross-model cannibalization...basically, just give us a reason to want an M car again. Otherwise, once the Z4M is out of production, we're just going to be left with a bunch of lame overweight, over-computerized grand tourers that are very difficult to justify (for non-badge buyers that is) when cheaper and more efficient biturbo cars are available.

If it must be N/A, they'll probably have to use a six pot to get the power they want/need for marketing purposes - but that'll jack the weight back up and you're right back where you started. Honestly, unless BMW does something interesting like the suggestion I just made, they're probably just better off canning any idea for an M1 and letting the 135i carry the torch - and that's probably the immediate plan anyhow.
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2007, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bim Growl View Post
It's funny, when most people describe what they expect or would like to see, they end up describing the current Z4M Coupe...

We'll see what happens. I would've thought they'd stop production on the M coupe a year before an M1 hits the US market, but there's a rumour over on ZPost that says they already stopped taking orders on the Z4M cars... If they did drop the Z4M, perhaps the new M1 will take it's place in the market, and be the welcome relief to the E92 M3.
Yeah, I don't think we'll see an M1 coupe while the Z4M w/ S54 is on sale, but since the Z is selling so poorly, maybe they will drop it and try the M1 instead. I think the Z styling turns off a lot of people, plus it's a lot of money for a 2 seater. An six cylinder M1 coupe at $40k base would sell much better.
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  #11  
Old 07-24-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
You know what I think they should do with an M1? How do you give the thing a legitimate reason to exist when it's so easy to pull power out of the N54 models?

Answer: four cylinders! Forget raw power - cut as much weight as possible; focus on power-to-weight ratios over raw power. Composite body panels, trim the fat (power seats etc), and a four cylinder engine - turbocharge it, even, though therein lies the rub (because I doubt the M division would even consider that). Give it an aggressive clutch, shifter, possibly even racing buckets - look at what Porsche does with the GT3, as an example. Make it completely different in character from the 135i - possibly even a modern throwback to the E30 M3. It would be a niche market car anyhow, and it would be hard to slot between the 135i/335i and M3 in terms of power/acceleration without some cross-model cannibalization...basically, just give us a reason to want an M car again. Otherwise, once the Z4M is out of production, we're just going to be left with a bunch of lame overweight, over-computerized grand tourers that are very difficult to justify (for non-badge buyers that is) when cheaper and more efficient biturbo cars are available.
I like your thinking. Instead of E30 M3, I was thinking more like 2002tii, especially when talking 4cyl turbo. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe. Either way, yours sounds like a nice formula. If BMW doesn't do it, some tuner mag WILL, and everyone will wonder why BMW didn't think of it.

Don't worry, I'll remember that you thought of it...
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2007, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
The S54 apparently failed the latest EU emissions regs. I wouldn't be surprised if Z4M production has halted.

Quite frankly, we're talking about an engine that has been in production, largely unchanged, for about eight years. It's probably time for it to go anyhow. The regular sixes will barely go four or five without some sort of major update or redesign.

You know what I think they should do with an M1? How do you give the thing a legitimate reason to exist when it's so easy to pull power out of the N54 models?

Answer: four cylinders! Forget raw power - cut as much weight as possible; focus on power-to-weight ratios over raw power. Composite body panels, trim the fat (power seats etc), and a four cylinder engine - turbocharge it, even, though therein lies the rub (because I doubt the M division would even consider that). Give it an aggressive clutch, shifter, possibly even racing buckets - look at what Porsche does with the GT3, as an example. Make it completely different in character from the 135i - possibly even a modern throwback to the E30 M3. It would be a niche market car anyhow, and it would be hard to slot between the 135i/335i and M3 in terms of power/acceleration without some cross-model cannibalization...basically, just give us a reason to want an M car again. Otherwise, once the Z4M is out of production, we're just going to be left with a bunch of lame overweight, over-computerized grand tourers that are very difficult to justify (for non-badge buyers that is) when cheaper and more efficient biturbo cars are available.

If it must be N/A, they'll probably have to use a six pot to get the power they want/need for marketing purposes - but that'll jack the weight back up and you're right back where you started. Honestly, unless BMW does something interesting like the suggestion I just made, they're probably just better off canning any idea for an M1 and letting the 135i carry the torch - and that's probably the immediate plan anyhow.
Amen. The concept is tantalizing and probably won't come to pass as BMW's not inclined toward making a car like that any longer.
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
just give us a reason to want an M car again. Otherwise, once the Z4M is out of production, we're just going to be left with a bunch of lame overweight, over-computerized grand tourers that are very difficult to justify
I thought the original M5 and M6 were kind of like that, for their day. Fast, to be certain, but no racers. In that context, the E30 M3 was truly an exception, the oddity, the tattoed cousing you're embarrased to invite over for dinner.

And I am not so sure the E30 M3 was an unqualified sales success. I don't have the numbers, but would not be surprised to find out they sold more M5/M6s than M3s.

Therefore I see absolutely no business case for a pared-to-basics 3100lbs M1 with a brand new, screaming 8500RPM 4cyl engine.
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:24 AM
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Last year there were rumors of turbo'd 4 cylinder engines for the 1 series, but haven't seen those rumors in a while.

BMW did make the 320si - which would be cool if it wasn't such a big heavy platform that a 170 hp engine can't move it w/ much energy. Make a 120si and tune the engine up to 200 hp.
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:33 PM
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I thought the original M5 and M6 were kind of like that, for their day. Fast, to be certain, but no racers. In that context, the E30 M3 was truly an exception, the oddity, the tattoed cousing you're embarrased to invite over for dinner.

And I am not so sure the E30 M3 was an unqualified sales success. I don't have the numbers, but would not be surprised to find out they sold more M5/M6s than M3s.

Therefore I see absolutely no business case for a pared-to-basics 3100lbs M1 with a brand new, screaming 8500RPM 4cyl engine.
Agreed.

I never get why people think the original M cars were all about homolgation specials (like the M3an M1). The first mainstream models were the M535i, M5, and M6; all heavy street cars that have little business on a racetrack.....
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:34 PM
BEE-EM-VAY BEE-EM-VAY is offline
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i thought all M cars were suppose to be naturally aspirated? turbocharging would be out of the question.

The president of the M division gehard richter has said the old S54 engine "had reached its limits" so i doubt it could be further developed and refined. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=121767
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:07 PM
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i thought all M cars were suppose to be naturally aspirated? turbocharging would be out of the question.
I also read recently that apparently in 2010 or 2011 they may allow turbocharging again in F1, so the M division may follow suit.

After driving my 335 in Europe on some very challenging roads, I think the M division are fools for not developing an M version of the N54 engine.

Don't all jump on me, here is my thinking:
- no current M engine pulls very strong from less than 1400RPM, just like the N54
- you could make the N54 rev a little higher if needed, for that "racecar" feeling - say to 7500RPM
- you could make as much HP out of it as you needed and change the power delivery feel - thus ending up with different characters for different cars
- fuel economy and emissions would both improve
- couldn't hurt long term reliability either

Again, just my opinion.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:15 PM
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If there is an M1, they will start with either the current Z4M Engine and update it, or they will make an M Engine off of the latest line of I6's.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:20 PM
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In that context, the E30 M3 was truly an exception, the oddity, the tattoed cousing you're embarrased to invite over for dinner.

And I am not so sure the E30 M3 was an unqualified sales success. I don't have the numbers, but would not be surprised to find out they sold more M5/M6s than M3s.

The E30 M3 was built for one reason...BMW had to to run it in the series they wanted to. They had to build 5000 copies. Over the run they made 18,990. Unqualified sales success? uhhh...yeah. BMW made 2,241 E28 M5s and 5,855 E24 M635CSi/M6s. The E30 M3 sold more than double the number of M5 and M6s.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:28 PM
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The E30 M3 was built for one reason...BMW had to to run it in the series they wanted to. They had to build 5000 copies. Over the run they made 18,990. Unqualified sales success? uhhh...yeah. BMW made 2,241 E28 M5s and 5,855 E24 M635CSi/M6s. The E30 M3 sold more than double the number of M5 and M6s.
What about early E34 M5s? I think they had some production overlap with the E30 M3...

And I'm also curious about the US numbers (thinking that the US may have bought more M5/M6, despite the price differential).

Another way to illustrate this would be to compare the M3 numbers between successive generations. Wondering if more people preferred the heavier, faster E36 or E46 cars to the E30 screamers...
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:47 PM
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Difficult to say the number of E34 M5s made concurrently when the M3s were in production. Still safe to say the E30 M3s outsold the M5/M6 even with adding in the E34 M5s.

This data for US car (and probably does include the Canadian cars as well)
US E30 M3: 5300
US E28 M5: 1370 (over 60% of the production run)
US E24 M6: 1767
M5 + M6 = 3137...still a lot less than the E30 M3

Here are the numebrs for subsequent M3s, but i don't think you can make any reasonable comparison due to the financial climate of the world between the late 80s, mid 90s and the 00s.

E36 M3 3.0: 29,012 (US: 10,220)
E36 M3 3.2: 42,194 (US: 26,672)
Total E36 M3: 71,206

E46 M3: 85,741 (US: 43,779)

E39 M5: 20,482 (US: 9,992)
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:51 PM
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Here are the numebrs for subsequent M3s, but i don't think you can make any reasonable comparison due to the financial climate of the world between the late 80s, mid 90s and the 00s.
Thanks for posting the numbers. Would have taken me ages to look them up...

Economic climate aside, the disparity between the E30 and the newer generations is staggering. I think people did prefer the heavier, but more powerful and faster versions... (I'd be one of those, with no disrespect intended towards the E30).
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:43 PM
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The E30 M3 was very expensive for its time (MSRP of $35k- same as the US E36 M3 7 years later). The E28 M5 was very very expensive for its time (MSRP of $50k). The E30 M3 was very advanced for its time. What other engine was getting nearly 90 hp/L?
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:47 PM
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The E30 M3 was very advanced for its time. What other engine was getting nearly 90 hp/L?
The 3.0L in the Euro-spec M5/M6 was making 286HP -> around 95.3 hp/L.

There should have been other engines, from the usual suspects (Ferarri etc.)?
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Old 07-24-2007, 04:14 PM
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The E28 M5/E24 M6 had a 3.5L engine. 286/3.5= <82 hp/L.

However, I thought the point was obvious.....but....What other car priced at $35k or less was getting nearly 90hp/L?
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