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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #26  
Old 08-17-2007, 11:42 AM
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Fred, Halotron has both a lower ozone depletion potential as well as a shorter life in the atmosphere. Still hazy how long after 2030 it'll be available. Other developed countries have moved on to alternatives, but the U.S. hasn't. Gee, imagine that. But we'll be replacing today's extinguishers before 2030 arrives. Hopefully you never have to use the ones you own.

Halon 1211 and 1301 will continue to go up in price since they haven't been produced in developed countries since 1994 (reclamation is the only way to get it). Article 5 of the Montreal Protocol was the exception re. 1994, but the only 1211 and 1301 available today in the U.S. is reclaimed.

I like the FireCharger system, but not being handheld, it's not of much use to me in a street car.

I don't have the details on the health risks. I do know that the machine rooms where we've had Halon were not a place to be if the system fired. The doors auto-locked to prevent entry if the system went off (could still get out, but not in), loud sirens, flashers. "Get the h*ll out of the room" being the right choice if it fired (unless you happened to be weairng a fresh-air breatinh apparatus ). But that's an enclosed environment, not outdoors, and all non-emergency power was cut if the system went off (including all HVAC). To the best of my knowledge, the risk is just asphyxiation and combustion byproducts. Halon displaces air pretty quickly and in the machine rooms where we've had it, the intent was to displace the air with Halon (Halon is heavier than air, when the system would go off it'd push all the air out through the ceiling ventilation). For spraying an underhood fire with a handheld, or a cabin fire when there's no one in the cabin, I think the health risk is zero. In the cabin with the windows and top up, maybe not such a great idea but it shouldn't kill you nor leave any long-term side effects. The stuff burning in the cabin would pose a significantly greater risk.
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2007, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dwm View Post
In the cabin with the windows and top up, maybe not such a great idea but it shouldn't kill you nor leave any long-term side effects. The stuff burning in the cabin would pose a significantly greater risk.
If I'm in a cabin with the windows and top up, and firing Halotron, long-term or even 1 hour risks won't be my concern.
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2007, 06:01 PM
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If I'm in a cabin with the windows and top up, and firing Halotron, long-term or even 1 hour risks won't be my concern.
True. The concern would be the thought process (and/or quantity of alcohol) that led you to do that in the first place, right?
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  #29  
Old 08-18-2007, 03:25 AM
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So, what's the environmental and health story on the replacements for Halon, like Halguard and Halotron. I understand these had a much shorter life than Halon in the environment. Is that so? And what about health impacts?


PS: I've now read the MSDS sheets on these, and to my untrained eye, Halotron looks safer that Halon.... What do the pros say, Terry?
http://www.amerex-fire.com/msds_en.html

PPS: Hmmm. The H3R MSDS on Halguard, a.k.a. Halotron I, seems more cautious than the Amerex one: "heartbeat irregularities about 2% in air."
http://www.amerex-fire.com/msds_en.html
Actually both the Halguard and Halotron 1 sound the same, 20,000 PPM is 2%. So, the Halotron one more cautious with comments about heart sensitivity to adrenaline, leading to possitble fibrillation and death. And like you would have no adrenaline release if in a car that is on fire.

Halon is more of a simple asphixiant, ie lack of oxygen. Some arrythmia at some unspecified high concentration. The problem with computer rooms and such is they dumped enough in to displace oxygen, but IIRC you only need a small percentage to stop combustion. And most computer type rooms are sealed and run on separate, of recirculating HVAC systems.

Sounds like I would want to open the windows with either one. But at a quick look and without further research, Halon looks a bit safer.
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  #30  
Old 08-18-2007, 08:19 AM
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Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
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... Sounds like I would want to open the windows with either one. But at a quick look and without further research, Halon looks a bit safer.
I've dumped some very sizable cylinders of Halon (more than double the size of your common welding cylinders) a couple of times when working with safety systems on offshore production platforms (Gulf of Mexico).

One time, I was in the MCC when it dumped. I was on top of the control panel, and at the opposite end as the ladder; big gulp of air, jump to the floor and out the door!

Gotta love Halon for it's ZERO residue, or I would've had a couple of messes on my hands
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  #31  
Old 08-18-2007, 08:29 AM
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Very informative thread guys.
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  #32  
Old 08-18-2007, 12:18 PM
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Fred, I accidentally ordered the BB250B billet band clamp. If you want it for the HG250R, let me know. I'll sell it to you for $50 (I paid $85). If you want it powdercoated, let me know that too.

This puts a crimp in my HC schedule, sigh. Ordered the correct billet band today, it probably won't be here until Thursday.
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  #33  
Old 08-18-2007, 02:30 PM
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Fred, I accidentally ordered the BB250B billet band clamp. If you want it for the HG250R, let me know. I'll sell it to you for $50 (I paid $85). If you want it powdercoated, let me know that too.

This puts a crimp in my HC schedule, sigh. Ordered the correct billet band today, it probably won't be here until Thursday.
Yes, I'll take it. That's $50 plus shipping the slow way, I assume. Email me with details.

But why put off a day of fun at HC? Get some plumbers tape and some padding, and go low tech!!

Powered coated or not...... what do my color consultants suggest for a black interior? Afterall, I'm incapable of judging.
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  #34  
Old 08-18-2007, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
Actually both the Halguard and Halotron 1 sound the same, 20,000 PPM is 2%. So, the Halotron one more cautious with comments about heart sensitivity to adrenaline, leading to possitble fibrillation and death. And like you would have no adrenaline release if in a car that is on fire.

Halon is more of a simple asphixiant, ie lack of oxygen. Some arrythmia at some unspecified high concentration.
The MSDS on Halon was pretty scary on some of the factors..... and Halguard/Halotron 1 sounded not quite so bad to my unprofessional eye.

I echo your comments about the adrenaline, although that could be a good thing if you needed a little extra from that adrenaline (provided you don't get too much extra). I was thinking of DWM's comments.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phrider View Post
If I'm in a cabin with the windows and top up, and firing Halotron, long-term or even 1 hour risks won't be my concern.
True. The concern would be the thought process (and/or quantity of alcohol) that led you to do that in the first place, right?
I wasn't visualizing the alcohol scenario, but rather a situation where you're trapped, strapped, upside-down and nothin's working.

Hopefully, my imagination is just too vivid.
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  #35  
Old 08-18-2007, 02:46 PM
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[QUOTE=phrider;2584261
Powered coated or not...... what do my color consultants suggest for a black interior? Afterall, I'm incapable of judging.[/QUOTE]

Same red as the extinguisher.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2007, 02:48 PM
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Yes, I'll take it. That's $50 plus shipping the slow way, I assume. Email me with details.

But why put off a day of fun at HC? Get some plumbers tape and some padding, and go low tech!!
It would help if H3R would put dimensioned drawings on their site, especially for the BMF01B and BMF01P. Then I could at least get a head start on mounting. I mocked up a piece to mount to the seat out of .25" thick fiberglass, but I don't dare put nutserts in the seat until I know everything is going to fit.

Quote:
Powered coated or not...... what do my color consultants suggest for a black interior? Afterall, I'm incapable of judging.
Chassis black, Black Magic (high gloss black) or safety red. I have all of them, obviously. I'd personally go with chassis black or Black Magic. I haven't decided what I'm going to use in my car, but probably chassis black or dark gray (my interior is black/gray two-tone).
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  #37  
Old 08-18-2007, 02:52 PM
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Chassis black. Or just straight buffed. Whichever you think works best.
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  #38  
Old 08-19-2007, 04:40 PM
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Zinc-plated steel M8 rivet nuts installed in passenger seat with the Marson 325-RN lever-style tool. 1mm shim washer under the flange of the rivet nut just to improve the amount of surface on the fabric. I tried using the plier style tool on the driver side (wanted to avoid removing the seat), but the mandrel buggered the start thread on the rivet nut. Which meant I spent hours removing the mandrel. Will remove and replace that rivet nut later, but the lesson is that M8 is too big for the plier-style tool. I have an M8 mandrel for it, but you'd be crazy to try using it on a steel rivet nut or nutsert.



Scrap .25" thick electrical-grade fiberglass piece I used for the hole template to install the rivet nuts. The extra holes in it are because it's scrap (was formerly a piece of my old amplifier cover). If I don't have time before Homecoming, I'll use this piece to mount the H3R BMF01B.



Later it'll be replaced with a piece of aluminum. I'm probably going to have the aluminum laser-cut. If someone wants what I wind up with, now would be the time to let me know; I'm not going to do a second run on them. Wild guess is it'll cost me $170 to make 8 of them. So figure $25.
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  #39  
Old 08-19-2007, 06:27 PM
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Yes, please, I'll take one.
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  #40  
Old 08-19-2007, 06:54 PM
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Yes, please, I'll take one.
OK.

Rough dimensions from quick CAD file. I'll verify tomorrow night (BMF01B will arrive tomorrow). Simple bar with semicircular ends. Note the holes aren't concentric with the radius of the ends. I'll leave the rest of it hole-free so people can drill their own holes to accomodate other fire extinguisher mounts.

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  #41  
Old 08-19-2007, 08:47 PM
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OK.

Rough dimensions from quick CAD file. I'll verify tomorrow night (BMF01B will arrive tomorrow). Simple bar with semicircular ends. Note the holes aren't concentric with the radius of the ends. I'll leave the rest of it hole-free so people can drill their own holes to accomodate other fire extinguisher mounts.

I'll call the order in Tuesday, unless you can verify dimensions by 3:00 PM tomorrow. Do you want 1/8" or 3/16" (I'm thinking 1/8" is too thin)?

I need to get another batch of kits ordered before HC, but a day or so won't hurt. I'll pick everything up together once we get back home.
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  #42  
Old 08-19-2007, 09:21 PM
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I'll call the order in Tuesday, unless you can verify dimensions by 3:00 PM tomorrow. Do you want 1/8" or 3/16" (I'm thinking 1/8" is too thin)?
I did a 6.25 span and .125 was fine.
.187 would be better for the 10 inch span.
I just went down cellar and the 12 inch piece flexed pretty easily.

Also, I threaded (M6x1) the holes so I didn't have to use nuts.
The Z4 mounts also use M6x1.
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  #43  
Old 08-19-2007, 10:24 PM
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I'll call the order in Tuesday, unless you can verify dimensions by 3:00 PM tomorrow. Do you want 1/8" or 3/16" (I'm thinking 1/8" is too thin)?
3/16" if it's 6061. I'd prefer 7075, which could be 1/8".

Quote:
I need to get another batch of kits ordered before HC, but a day or so won't hurt. I'll pick everything up together once we get back home.
Sounds good. I don't expect to change the dimensions, but after you read me the numbers from the spreadsheet that don't jive with reality, I realized I have to have the H3R parts in hand to know. Would be good to accomodate the stock H3R bracket if possible, even though I won't be using it.
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  #44  
Old 08-20-2007, 07:52 AM
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I will take one.
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  #45  
Old 08-20-2007, 09:24 AM
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I'll take one as well, if there will be any available.
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  #46  
Old 08-20-2007, 12:54 PM
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Dimensions of H3R BMF01B: 4.32" long x 2" wide x .875" high.



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  #47  
Old 08-20-2007, 05:45 PM
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Upon further reflection, I'll take a total of two of the seat brackets.
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  #48  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:20 AM
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Fred, I did a test fitment with the BB250B last night. With the seat lowered all of the way, it clears the floor (with a cocomat which is quite thick) and still comes out of the BMF01B without much fuss. I suspect it'll come out easily with an HG250 in the BB250B.

Can't see the BMF01 at all without getting in the footwell. That was my objective buying the billet parts; nothing visible if the extinguisher isn't in the car, nothing for a passenger's skirt to snag on. Objective met, just wish the parts were less expensive.

My BB100B won't be here until Wednesday.

When I send you the BB250B powdercoated, note that there are 2 nylon set screws in the base. To make the BB250B rattle-free when installed in the BMF01B, you back these out as far as you can while still being able to insert the pin. Works like a charm and they don't have to be backed out far (about 1/32", less than a full turn). Snug as a bug when done.

Ron, you might want to consider the billet parts. They're not cheap, but they work nicely and leave little in the car when you pull the extinguisher. Not sure they'll clear the floor in the Z4, but we can figure that out at Homecoming if you'd like.
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  #49  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:36 AM
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Derek, Terry, Fred... the final CAD for the mounting plate is 2.25" wide to give a little more meat around the BMF01B screws. It'll be 3/16" thick, hopefully 7075. The thickness isn't about strength in my case, it's about threads (Ron is right, it's best to thread the plate so no nuts are sticking into the seat). 7075 is almost twice as strong as 6061, so strength won't be an issue. The bolts included with the BMF01B are #8-32, so a 3/16" piece will give me 6 threads. I realize other folks might not be using the BMF01B, but the plate was designed for my application.

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  #50  
Old 08-21-2007, 05:38 AM
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Fred, here's the clearance of the BB250B. Note that you can squish my cocomat down about 3/8" of an inch with one finger. I'm certain that if you pulled the pin from the BMF01B with an HG250R in the BB250B, it will come right out (or at least the floor won't be an issue; not sure about the tunnel). Second picture shows 2 US quarters fit under the BB250B without quite touching it.





Here you can see the 2 nylon set screws I mentioned that you back out to make it rattle-free in the BMF01B.

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