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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #76  
Old 02-16-2008, 04:24 PM
DriftworksJames DriftworksJames is offline
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Does anyone know if the special tool is only needed for removing the old bushes or for installing the new ones too?

Large subframe bushes that would be a real pain to press out can generally be burnt out (with the subframe off the car) with a blowtorch or oxcycet torch and new ones popped in if that's the case. Doesn't take long. If the bush has a metal outside housing, that's easily removed from the subframe with a hacksaw once the rubber part has been burned out.

Also, does anyone know if the bushes have voids in them that could be filled with polyurethane or similar as a temporary fix/bodge?

cheers,
James
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  #77  
Old 02-16-2008, 04:40 PM
dbruce dbruce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftworksJames View Post
Does anyone know if the special tool is only needed for removing the old bushes or for installing the new ones too?

Large subframe bushes that would be a real pain to press out can generally be burnt out (with the subframe off the car) with a blowtorch or oxcycet torch and new ones popped in if that's the case. Doesn't take long. If the bush has a metal outside housing, that's easily removed from the subframe with a hacksaw once the rubber part has been burned out.

Also, does anyone know if the bushes have voids in them that could be filled with polyurethane or similar as a temporary fix/bodge?

cheers,
James
The bushings are fluid filled and have a hydraulic function tot them. Filling them won't be much of an option......but someone on the UK boards did try it......didn't last.

The blowtorch method is needed even with the correct tool....since they are really in there. You also can't hacksaw them well......since the inside has a metal sleeve.

The previous posters 450 quote for the tools seems good.......and if you can do it yourself...worth the cost. Each bushing is around $60.
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  #78  
Old 02-16-2008, 06:09 PM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Tom:

Quote:
Just got off the phone with Skip from Baum Tools.

They have a new tool made for doing this rear subframe mount bushing r+r.
Tool is B334150, he quoted me $450.00 for the cost.
Baum is located in Sarasota, FL.
Phone them at 800-848-6657.
Thanks for the info and leg-work.
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  #79  
Old 02-17-2008, 04:55 AM
DriftworksJames DriftworksJames is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbruce View Post
The bushings are fluid filled and have a hydraulic function tot them. Filling them won't be much of an option......but someone on the UK boards did try it......didn't last.
I know they were or they are supposed to be fluid filled, but from the pics I've seen of removed bushes, they look empty as though any fluid is long gone If there is a void there were the fluid used to be, it can be filled with polyurethane or hot glue gun glue (I did this on my E34's tired subframe bushes with great results)
While I understand this isn't a perfect solution to the issue, it has potential to be a very quick, simple and cheap way to rectify some/most of the problem we're seeing here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dbruce View Post
The blowtorch method is needed even with the correct tool....since they are really in there. You also can't hacksaw them well......since the inside has a metal sleeve.
I don't mean to just to heat the bush up a bit to make it easier to pull out, I mean to set fire to it and burn it out (this is why I said do it off the car) This way the centre section will burn up and drop out and leave you with the metal sleeve in place which can be removed easily by hacksawing a split up one side and persuading out with a hammer and large screwdriver. Basically like this and this

Assuming you can get the old bushes out, is the fitting of new bushes a fairly easy job?

I understand from the above that I probably sound like a cheapo caveman who solves problems with bodges, fire and hammers
I'm just trying to give some input based on solutions for other cars and provide some cheap DIY alternatives here
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  #80  
Old 02-17-2008, 10:13 AM
dbruce dbruce is offline
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Quote:
I don't mean to just to heat the bush up a bit to make it easier to pull out, I mean to set fire to it and burn it out (this is why I said do it off the car) This way the centre section will burn up and drop out and leave you with the metal sleeve in place which can be removed easily by hacksawing a split up one side and persuading out with a hammer and large screwdriver. Basically like this and this
The subframe is made of aluminum and for obvious reasons, Bentley only advises applying heat for a pretty short period of time.

In the case of the bushing itself, the interior has a hydraulic function. If you going to spend the time to try to impregnate it with poly or something else.....might as well just try to remove it and do it right. Like I said, it's been tried already.....and didn't work for long.

I'm just giving you the info from all the threads I've read on this. The only real way to do it is to either take out the subframe and whack the damn things out.....or get the right tool and press it out while the subframe is in the car. In either case, a torch will be needed to heat the subframe.

Pushing the new subframe bushings back in is supposed to be much easier (still hard and need some kind of a press. One poster mentioned that using a water soluble lubricant (KY) helps tremendously.

Last edited by dbruce; 02-17-2008 at 10:27 AM.
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  #81  
Old 02-17-2008, 10:20 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Lightbulb Just a thought

Hi,
(first sorry if this is already covered earlier, I have not read every thread)

One of my bushes has just begun leaking, so is effectively shot. They give the game away, a thin oil like brake fluid drips out. But my motor 523i SE Tourer 74k, 1998 does not bounce about on stopping, even with the shot bushes.
New bushes about 27, tool to fit 150, work and hastle... much!
= easier to find a 4+ BMW workshop doing half price work... in my case about 10 miles down the road, South of Manchester UK.

However, any fixing to self leveling, or anythig that alters the cars height (I suspect even knocking the level device, a fairly flimsey rotary .. varibale resistor?) needs to have BMW re-set the level. If your motor had two conflicting heights sensors it would bounce as they fight each other to assume level... say one wants to work at (just a guess here) 22 cm from road height left, and the other wants to works at 23 cm from road height right, and the car is on the level. The two would raise and lower each side conflicting to try and level the rear! This might occur even when driving, but would not be so noticable... might make the car roll a little.
If it were me, I would check, possibly replace the two fittings, ensure all wiring was absolutely perfect, then once happy, in to BMW to have height level calibration... probably apx 100, but worth it!

Quote from Haynes handbook: 10.18 Steering and suspension 17.40: Refitting is a reversal of removal tightening all fastners securely. NOTE: After renewing one or more of the ride height sensors, it is recomended that the system height calibration is carried out. This requires dedicated test equipment, and should be entrusted to a BMW dealer or specialist.
(this comment repeats for every adjustment / change to the air leveling system)

I have software to check / reset error codes etc on my laptop.. but it does not offer this calibration

Many thanks to Bix X for such a detailed description of the bushes on the first page of comment related to this post, I have spent all day today and yesterday wondering where the leak was coming from, the only place possible was the bush.... but I had not until now ever heard of hydraulic bushes!!! Phew.. only the bushes... should be a less expensive job!

Good luck Aceswerling!

Driftworks James... someone on Ebay.uk has the tools for the job for 150..

Last edited by HeadInTheClouds; 02-17-2008 at 11:11 AM. Reason: spelling fix
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  #82  
Old 02-17-2008, 10:34 AM
dbruce dbruce is offline
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Quote:
However, any fixing to self leveling, or anythig that alters the cars height (I suspect even knocking the level device, a fairly flimsey rotary .. varibale resistor?) needs to have BMW re-set the level. If your motor had two conflicting heights sensors it would bounce as they fight each other to assume level... say one wants to work at (just a guess here) 22 cm from road height left, and the other wants to works at 23 cm from road height right, and the car is on the level. The two would raise and lower each side conflicting to try and level the rear! This might occur even when driving, but would not be so noticable... might make the car roll a little.
If it were me, I would check, possibly replace the two fittings, ensure all wiring was absolutely perfect, then once happy, in to BMW to have height level calibration... probably apx 100, but worth it!
One thing that should be noted, is that not all Tourings have the self leveling suspension. I, fortunately, do not have that wonderful feature.
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  #83  
Old 02-17-2008, 11:13 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Search ebay.co.uk for:
FRANKLIN BMW 5 SERIES E39 96- REAR SUBFRAME BUSH TOOL

Update: I am not at all sure this tool is fit for the job, looking at it it looks like it is for the non hydraulic bushes!

Last edited by HeadInTheClouds; 02-17-2008 at 12:13 PM. Reason: not sure if this does the job
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  #84  
Old 02-17-2008, 11:14 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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thanks dbruce!
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  #85  
Old 02-17-2008, 12:08 PM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Talking can't resist a challenge... but will still hand mine over to BMW

To put the new bushes back in is probably quite easy... soapy / oily water (soap dries leaving oil to prevent corrosion) or "o" ring chain wax cos it shouldn't expand the rubber. Align it carefully and push it back in using the cars weight and a jack!
Jump around in the back to help if required
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  #86  
Old 02-17-2008, 04:37 PM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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The Franklin tool is "not available" to the USA.

See my prior post in this thread.

* Want to buy it and mail one ...?

Baumtools model mentioned is apparently available in the USA.

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  #87  
Old 02-18-2008, 05:01 AM
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cpatstone cpatstone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadInTheClouds View Post
To put the new bushes back in is probably quite easy... soapy / oily water (soap dries leaving oil to prevent corrosion) or "o" ring chain wax cos it shouldn't expand the rubber. Align it carefully and push it back in using the cars weight and a jack!
Jump around in the back to help if required
Have you done this?
I was able to press one in all but 1/4" of the way, and then (cause I had to) put the car back together, the next day, after some driving, the bushing wasn't completely seated.

Other bits to add:
* I made tools to remove and install. The removal tool barely worked for one bushing. the "ears" bent... you'd have to see. I've since fixed that aspect, but haven't had an opportunity to use it. Such is life without a garage, in New England. The install tool is simple, and yes, installation is pretty easy. Actually, as with most things in life, with proper tools, the whole job isn't hard. I'll post my write-up when done.
* I removed one rear bushing. It wasn't in too bad a shape. I could weigh it and compare it to a new one. Then drill and see if something comes out?
* the front bushings were very clearly (visibly) in worse shape.
* bandaid: find some rubber sheet, about 1/4" thick cut a circle to fit over the old bushing and bigger than the diameter of the subframe carrier tube. Then fit the rubber washer in between the top of the subframe mount and below the car body. Probably easiest to slit one side to help with install, and then use two adjacent holes and a zip-tie to close the slit after install. Make any sense? This basically just prevents the subframe from going up.
* heat? don't go there. Not necessary. Probably mess up the aluminum's heat treatment. Also, on one bushing, there's the gas filler pipe right next door, which is plastic and probably has really combustible stuff in it.
* I used P40, which is an equivalent to circolite (spelling?), which Bentley recommends. I speculate that water, or water and dish soap would work just as well.
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  #88  
Old 02-18-2008, 05:59 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Lightbulb Franklin and USA.. a puller design for those who dare!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase007 View Post
The Franklin tool is "not available" to the USA.

See my prior post in this thread.

* Want to buy it and mail one ...?

Baumtools model mentioned is apparently available in the USA.

Sorry.... I read the rest of the thread afterwards

I have attached a proposal design for a puller, that doesn't require a lathe or milling machine... just a hacksaw, a bucket of charcoal, a gas blow torch, some good grade tool steel and tool steel bolts... and a tap and die set.
Un-tested, so I cannot say if it will work, but it is what I would make if I was taking my bushes out.
Shrinking this to fit has messed it up a little, I will try and post it elswhere if anyone is interested.

I just got quoted 475 to have my bushes done, with an inclusive parts cost of 280 and labour rate of 3 hours estimate ... so who knows I may well be doing these myself!
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  #89  
Old 02-18-2008, 07:30 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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An example of a similar design

A puller tool for those designing their own puller....

http://www.concepttools.co.uk/Produc...329&RangeNo=31
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  #90  
Old 02-19-2008, 11:02 AM
DriftworksJames DriftworksJames is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadInTheClouds View Post
so who knows I may well be doing these myself!
I'm in the same boat here. I noticed a couple of people with the right tool on eBay for 200 or thereabouts. Now I'm thinking I'd never pay that much for a tool I'll only use once, but I'd happily pay, say 50 to use the tool to do the job if it saves me 300 in labour costs for a job I can do myself

How about one of us buys the tool on ebay, then either sells it on to someone else here for 50 less and so on or someone pays for the tool, then hires it out for 50 a go with a returnable deposit of 150 repayed when the tool is returned.
Surely we could sort something out like that without too much trouble?
I'd be up for it
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  #91  
Old 02-19-2008, 04:11 PM
aceswerling aceswerling is offline
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I'm up for that.
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  #92  
Old 02-19-2008, 06:18 PM
dbruce dbruce is offline
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I have no issue with a shared tool either.....but lets all remember that we have too continents discussing this. I have a feeling we will need two, one for the America's and one for Europe.
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  #93  
Old 02-19-2008, 07:38 PM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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I'd be up for a shared tool here in the US as well.

I think shipping one HEAVY tool between continents would quickly add up to more than the $450 Baum-tools wants for the one stateside.

I belong to a local group or car enthusiasts / DIY-ers and amongst / between us we have bought Longacre scales [corner-weighting / balancing for track], camber / caster guages, engine stands, professional fender rollers, specialty one-off tools, etc... In the end, it has worked out to be much cheaper for ALL of us versus going to an Indy or Dealer at $110+ per hour labor rates [metro DC]. The engine / transmission stands get passed around and it's comical to try and remember who has what or let who borrow it.
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  #94  
Old 02-20-2008, 10:19 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Thumbs up E-Bay Franklin tool

I agree, a "tool share" is an excellent idea.

I have now got the sub frame mounts, so I am about to try and fix the motor.
The Franklin part on E-bay is 240 + post and packing of 7
Search Ebay for "Rear Bush Tool BMW 5 TOURING E38 E39- IN SITU-FRANKLIN"
Another ebay person is selling similar for 232.65 plus 7.95 post and packing
Franklin Rear Bush Tool - BMW 5 Touring (AFT47)
However this has no photos, so I don't know if it is correct or not.
The Franklin tool:
Ebay: Franklin Rear Bush Tool - BMW 5 (E39) (AFT45)
does not work on the Tourer it is for parallell bushes found on the saloon!

What we don't know if if anyone has tried one of these... a guinea pig!

I am going to look at removing my bushes this weekend, and if I have no luck without the Franklin tool I will be buying one... and will be very happy to sell it on minus 50 to UK or US.

BMW have quoted more than 500 for two bushes, BMW 4+ have quoted 375 for 4 bushes. 57 for the tool + 190 ish for the bushes would make my total costs about 247

The E-Bay seller claims the following:
TIME SAVER: ALLOWS FOUR BUSHES TO BE REPLACED IN LESS THAN 1 HOUR (BMW ALLOW 4 HOURS)

Does anyone know if this is true? 1 hour seems too good to be true!

Update:
http://www.franklin-tools.co.uk/acat...__2007_61.html
The tool AFT47 Rear Subframe Bush Tool - BMW 5 Touring
is the correct one, and Franklin seem to have reduced the price over the weekend, it is now:
230.30 inclusive of tax, cheaper than E-Bay! So it should be possible to locate a seller with a better price! (Franklin online order sadly doesn't work yet).

Any of you E-Bay sellers out there want to offer a better price???

Last edited by HeadInTheClouds; 02-20-2008 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Update on price / tool id
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  #95  
Old 02-20-2008, 10:43 AM
dbruce dbruce is offline
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For the US tool, I'll need it this summer, since that's when I plan on pulling them out. Anyone that wants to buy one and pass it along, I got dibs for the July time frame.....since I'll be out of the country and can hand my car off to my mechanic with the tool. I'd say the best way to pass it on is to have the person getting it pay the purchase cost minus a rental fee (say 50 bucks). By the time it's free to the next person.....It would have seen better days.

Last edited by dbruce; 02-20-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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  #96  
Old 02-21-2008, 01:01 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Exclamation Cost of Franlkin puller AFT47 sent to the US

I am not sure you are going to like this....

E-Bay puller sent to me = 247

I have estimated it weighs 2.5kg (a single bush weighs 2Kg) so the theory is the puller is slightly heavier...???!!!

I went through Parcel Force signed / insured delivery, UPS and Fedex
With a quote to ship to El Segundo... only cos I have a post code there so could make the quote machine work!

Parcel force seem to be cheapest @ 52, UPS 73, Fedex 83

So taking 247 + 52 for shiping, and wrestling the Paypal rates for currency conversion for a private exchange + 3.5% charge +0.30 for something,
I arrived at a total in USD of probably around $590

So that is a rough estimate of a new one of these pullers to the US...

I will see if I can contact Franklin to find if they have an outlet in the USA. Watch this space....
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  #97  
Old 02-21-2008, 03:53 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Thank you for your enquiry.

We regret to advise that Franklin products cannot be supplied for use
in USA / Canada.

--
F F Franklin & Co Ltd

bang goes that option, back to the $590 option... sry..
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  #98  
Old 02-21-2008, 04:41 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Lightbulb Attn: DriftworksJames

I have chickened out, 6-8 hours on my back in my driveway, when I am sooooo busy was getting me worried!

The good news:

I have just contacted a BMW specialist in Stoke on Trent (not far up the road from you), who will do the bushes for me for a very good labour rate. This will cost me more than the "rent" / "share" of a puller, but is loads less hastle. Something around 150 for the job + just under 200 for the bushes (which is the best price I can get them for).
So effectively I am forking out 100 more to have them done for me, than if I did them myself!

He is also willing to put in the bushes I got from Euro************* (Lemforder 33 31 1 094 036, or 623 11 0495) which I have confirmed as being the correct bushes!

You can get his details here:

http://www.pjautomotive.co.uk/diagnostics.asp

Added bonus he will lend a car while the fix is being done, so I don't have to wait around!

I am booked for Tuesday 4th March

So with luck all will be back to normal very soon

I am still willing to get / send a puller to the USA with a paypal payment.
Can you trust me to do the job? Well you can use paypal to get back at me if I fail.
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  #99  
Old 02-22-2008, 07:39 AM
HeadInTheClouds HeadInTheClouds is offline
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Post Puller designers dimensions

Final word for now....
I have measured up the bush, all dimensions are only done using a steel rule so are +- 0.5 / 1mm.
This should be good enough to design a puller from.
One point to note, the bush has a larger diameter at the top metal tube than the bottom, so I am guessing that the chassis has has a locating dowel 25 mm long by 28/29mm diameter. So to get a nut above the bush to exert force on the top of the bush you will need to drop the subframe by probably about 35 - 40 mm.

Another thought.... how about getting 2x longer subframe bolt cut the head off and cut a new fine thread on it. Tighten the bolt through the bush in to the chassis, like inserting a stud, after having packed the bush out by about 1-2cm (washers between chassis and bush). Then design a fitting to push the subframe back using nuts on the fine thread cut on the other end of the bolt. Push the subframe back the 1-2cm of packing, loosen, add more packing and repeat!
i.e. use the actual chassis of the car instead of a puller.. just a thought.
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Last edited by HeadInTheClouds; 02-22-2008 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Add a thought
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  #100  
Old 02-22-2008, 08:33 AM
99WAGON 99WAGON is offline
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i had to replace my rear bags on my 540it and the ride is much better...i have never heard of them bouncing though... i would also look at the buschings too
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