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E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)
BMWs throw back to the iconic 2002, with a renewed form and function. The smallest car in BMW's line up but still packs a punch. Available in coupe or convertible, powered by either an inline 6 in the 128 or the twin turbo rocket sled 135.

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  #26  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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Originally Posted by 335bhak View Post
200 lbs is quite a bit of a difference. One that will be noticed on the drag strip. Now depending upon weight balance- that may be an issue for this 1 series. However it is still a Bimmer. Thus I think that a Bimmer should set the standard as it always has on build quality and sound dampening materials. It would be a travesty not to have it in a bimmer - even if it is a 1 series. It will stilll be better than most possible competitors in its price. It will be better quality than, take sales from , be fastr than, and thus outsell the G37 without a doubt.
The 3 series in in a different league so I wouldn't worry about it taking sales from it.
I do agree that 200lbs will be noticed on the drag strip but how about the butt dyno? Doing a quarter mile .1 or .2 seconds faster makes no difference in day to day driving. As you say,the balance of the car is the important thing. Once you get over 3300 lbs or so I just don't think it is possible to have the light on it's feet feeling that you get with older BMWs or lighter weight cars.

I think most of the people on this forum would appreciate a BMW configured as I described without a massive helping of horsepower but a lightweight feel while still maintaining some measure of practicality. Most people cannot afford to have a 3 series (or 5 or 7) for normal driving and a Z4 for corner carving. They would like a RWD, lightweight and well built coupe with a usable rear seat and storage. And a 3 (or 1) is not a real tossable car. Skidpad does not equal fun handling.

I don't believe that BMW should lower it's build standards or make a noisy car, i just don't think it needs to weigh so much. There are quite a few car makers bringing out RWD platforms soon and most of them are capable of competing with BMW on build quality. While they might not have the brand power, the build quality difference is quickly shrinking between German manufacturers and others. You are kidding yourself if you really believe that BMW build quality is heads and shoulders above other car makers.

Since we are NEVER going to be getting a sub 3000 pound 4 seater coupe from BMW I am going to have to pin my hopes on a Mazda, Honda or Hyundai. Any of them are capable of doing it and Mazda already has the RX-8 chassis. Just needs a bit more torque.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:17 PM
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I am still hoping that with all the outcry about the 135i and the 128i being over-priced, BMW will give us the option to delete the moon-roof in the 135i once it's released here. That will save us an additional 45 lbs, not to mention the $1000 cost-saving benefit.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:01 PM
Will_325i Will_325i is offline
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
..... Mazda already has the RX-8 chassis. Just needs a bit more torque.

Actually it needs a LOT more torque. I test-drove one this past weekend and honestly my 2004 325i is more fun.


I had a similar gripe about the MX5 I test-drove last month. Such great feel but gutless....makes it tough to actually BUY.

My hunch is the 128 will be more satisfying overall, despite its higher weight.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:32 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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Actually it needs a LOT more torque. I test-drove one this past weekend and honestly my 2004 325i is more fun.

I had a similar gripe about the MX5 I test-drove last month. Such great feel but gutless....makes it tough to actually BUY.

My hunch is the 128 will be more satisfying overall, despite its higher weight.
Different strokes for different folks.

Both of those engines do have pretty weak bottom end power bands but like to be revved. The RX-8 is extremely addictive over 6000 RPM but that is the problem; 6000 RPMS. Both of those cars are much lighter and have a more playful feel that the 325i though. Especially if it is a 4 door BMW. You just can't hide the weight. The nice thing about Mazda is that I really think they are trying to go for the sporty segment that has been abondonded by so many manufacturers, BMW included. You can also ADD power. Adding lightness is nearly impossible. And the RX-8 is nearly 400 lbs lighter. (the miata is close to 800!)


I don't mind revving an engine to get power, but both of those cars could do with another 20-30 ft/lbs of torque. It would make day to day more enjoyable. Unfortunately power=weight=less fun.

And next time you test drive a mazda (especially a sports car) try and go without a dealer. Really fling the car around. A hard driven miata is ridiculous fun. As soon as they release a Mazdaspeed Miata with a bit more torque I am trading in my lead sled.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:40 PM
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I am still hoping that with all the outcry about the 135i and the 128i being over-priced,
Is there such an outcry? I think they both will sell very well at those prices. I personally think it's the rest of the BMW lineup that's overpriced.
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  #31  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:42 PM
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Different strokes for different folks.

Both of those engines do have pretty weak bottom end power bands but like to be revved. The RX-8 is extremely addictive over 6000 RPM but that is the problem; 6000 RPMS. Both of those cars are much lighter and have a more playful feel that the 325i though. Especially if it is a 4 door BMW. You just can't hide the weight. The nice thing about Mazda is that I really think they are trying to go for the sporty segment that has been abondonded by so many manufacturers, BMW included. You can also ADD power. Adding lightness is nearly impossible. And the RX-8 is nearly 400 lbs lighter. (the miata is close to 800!)


I don't mind revving an engine to get power, but both of those cars could do with another 20-30 ft/lbs of torque. It would make day to day more enjoyable. Unfortunately power=weight=less fun.

And next time you test drive a mazda (especially a sports car) try and go without a dealer. Really fling the car around. A hard driven miata is ridiculous fun. As soon as they release a Mazdaspeed Miata with a bit more torque I am trading in my lead sled.
Depends on where you live. I drove a Miata special edition on Maui's Hana highway - it's fantastic there. Same goes for 100 hp hatchbacks in Europe - a total blast there.

But I wouldn't want to drive them back in the US, surrounded by SUVs on long boring highways.

Let's face it, most American driving is in straight lines, that's why torque is so popular.
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  #32  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
Different strokes for different folks.

Both of those engines do have pretty weak bottom end power bands but like to be revved. The RX-8 is extremely addictive over 6000 RPM but that is the problem; 6000 RPMS. Both of those cars are much lighter and have a more playful feel that the 325i though. Especially if it is a 4 door BMW. You just can't hide the weight. The nice thing about Mazda is that I really think they are trying to go for the sporty segment that has been abondonded by so many manufacturers, BMW included. You can also ADD power. Adding lightness is nearly impossible. And the RX-8 is nearly 400 lbs lighter. (the miata is close to 800!)
I'm assuming that Mazda uses the standard definition of curb weight. If that's the case, the RX-8 is actually a bit heavier than my 323i (which is right around 3000 lbs without a driver). With the handful of modifications I've done, it's a very lively car to drive despite the relatively underwhelming engine. The 3 series has absolutely ballooned in size and weight since the turn of the decade. Today's 335i is actually 200 lbs heavier than my buddy's 97' 528.

Of course, the Miata is obviously far lighter, regardless.

Quote:
And next time you test drive a mazda (especially a sports car) try and go without a dealer. Really fling the car around. A hard driven miata is ridiculous fun. As soon as they release a Mazdaspeed Miata with a bit more torque I am trading in my lead sled.
That much is certainly true. A friend of mine is a fairly dedicated autocrosser and recently had a chance to beat up a Miata on the course.

His response: "It's easy to see why people buy these." Considering he drives a modified E36 M3 (engine mods, coilovers, camber plates, etc), that's saying quite a bit.
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  #33  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:16 PM
Will_325i Will_325i is offline
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
.... As soon as they release a Mazdaspeed Miata with a bit more torque I am trading in my lead sled.
Now THAT ( a Mazdaspeed Miata) sounds like it could be my next car if I pass on the 1-series.

Any idea if/when this version will come out?

What's the typical price premium for mazdaspeed versions?

What's the typical torque increase?

Also, wasn't the last mazdaspeed version criticized for a stiffer yet less satisfying ride?
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  #34  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:53 PM
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I think the Tii was supposed to address the weight issues being talked about here. Still wonder if the Tii will make it to production and if not we can order one without a sunroof and get rid of the stock seats for some lighter seats by Recaro. I still think a lot of weight can be saved on that car with some minor mods
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  #35  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:10 PM
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Weight was the final straw for me. At this point may as well just get a 3 coupe. Looks much better and will be close enough in performance for me.
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  #36  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:44 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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Originally Posted by Will_325i View Post
Now THAT ( a Mazdaspeed Miata) sounds like it could be my next car if I pass on the 1-series.

Any idea if/when this version will come out?

What's the typical price premium for mazdaspeed versions?

What's the typical torque increase?

Also, wasn't the last mazdaspeed version criticized for a stiffer yet less satisfying ride?
Everyone on the miata.net forum is patiently awaiting any news on the mazdaspeed miata, but mazda is pretty tight lipped. From all the conversations it seems the consensus is the new mazdaspeed will be about 200 HP/200ftlb (maybe much more if they use a form of the direct injection turbo 4 they use in the Speed3 ) and be relatively lightly optioned. Mazda is active in a lot of low budget racing and the mazdaspeed should be part of that. I guess around 28K and only a softtop (lighter weight). No way the car will be over 30K. And it should still be around 2550lbs.

For instance, the last mazdaspeed had a much more capable suspension, (though stiff) light weight wheels and tires, CLOTH seats and additional chassis bracing. The power increase was in the neighborhood of 30% and cost was only very slightly more than a normal GT miata with leather. So mazda let you buy a turbo and better handling instead of leather and other convenience parts.

Of course it is impossible to guess what Mazda is going to do with the mazdaspeed version. I expect it to be a quick but not overwhelmingly fast car (0-60 in high 5?) that handles very well right out of the dealer. Actually, the best thing about miatas is that the are easy and cheap to mod with tons of aftermarket support so even if the Speed isn't hardcore enough for you, there are companies who can help you make it perfect. (flyinmiata.com for one)
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  #37  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:47 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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I think the Tii was supposed to address the weight issues being talked about here. Still wonder if the Tii will make it to production and if not we can order one without a sunroof and get rid of the stock seats for some lighter seats by Recaro. I still think a lot of weight can be saved on that car with some minor mods
The Tii is going to cost 40K, save 150 lbs and will probably never be sold in the states. I just don't think there is any business case for a Tii if they plan on making an M1.

If they dump that huge 3L turbo out of the car, insert a light, high revving straight six and get the weight to around 2900 lbs then maybe it would be worth it. And no power seats, leather, sunroof, 12 speaker system, etc.
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  #38  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:50 PM
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Last edited by investor27; 11-28-2007 at 09:56 PM.
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  #39  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:09 AM
Will_325i Will_325i is offline
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Thanks Needagarage,

Test-driving both the Miata and the Sky I've been spoiled with both and now like neither. Driving the Miata makes the Sky feel lesser by comparison, and driving the sky made the Miata feel weak. A Mazdaspeed under 30k with 200 ft-lbs (versus 140) would definitely be a no-brainer. I guess I'll have to check the Mazda forums, because between the 1-series' shortened year and the lack of dealer discounts for a while means I'm waiting a year anyway.
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  #40  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:54 AM
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Edmunds lists the MazdaSpeed 3 at $22,300, but you can get it for $21K or less, so why would a Miata Speed3 be $30 grand. At that price it will be encroaching on the Honda S2000 price range.
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  #41  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
If they dump that huge 3L turbo out of the car, insert a light, high revving straight six and get the weight to around 2900 lbs then maybe it would be worth it. And no power seats, leather, sunroof, 12 speaker system, etc.
128 has a lightweight inline 6
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  #42  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:18 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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Edmunds lists the MazdaSpeed 3 at $22,300, but you can get it for $21K or less, so why would a Miata Speed3 be $30 grand. At that price it will be encroaching on the Honda S2000 price range.
The Miata is around 25K with the sport package (with a LSD!!). Any mazdaspeed package is going to add about 3-4K to the price of the car so you are looking at maybe 28-29K. If they make the Mazdaspeed miata with a retractable hardtop add maybe another 1000. I really doubt they would do that since it adds about 90 lbs to the car. (A little bit better than the 400 it adds in the 3 series-with no loss of cargo space)
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:19 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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128 has a lightweight inline 6
And it weighs.......

The lightweight and nimble handling is what I was going for. Not the engine. Think a 318Ti sport package with a strong engine. THAT is what I (and many others I'm sure) want.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:37 PM
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And it weighs.......

The lightweight and nimble handling is what I was going for. Not the engine. Think a 318Ti sport package with a strong engine. THAT is what I (and many others I'm sure) want.
if they dumped what you stated then it could be close to 2900
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  #45  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:28 AM
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Depends on where you live. I drove a Miata special edition on Maui's Hana highway - it's fantastic there. Same goes for 100 hp hatchbacks in Europe - a total blast there.

But I wouldn't want to drive them back in the US, surrounded by SUVs on long boring highways.

Let's face it, most American driving is in straight lines, that's why torque is so popular.
I've been on the Hana Highway as well and it is one of the most beautiful, challenging drives I've seen or experienced.
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  #46  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:09 PM
BlackJetE90 BlackJetE90 is offline
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Is there such an outcry? I think they both will sell very well at those prices. I personally think it's the rest of the BMW lineup that's overpriced.
I don't see an outcry either, the msrp is almost exactly what everyone was estimating.

135i - $34,900

A3 3.2 - $34,915

A lot more performance over the A3, basically the 1-series main luxury competitor.
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Old 12-02-2007, 02:14 AM
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I don't see an outcry either, the msrp is almost exactly what everyone was estimating.

135i - $34,900

A3 3.2 - $34,915

A lot more performance over the A3, basically the 1-series main luxury competitor.
There is zero competition between these cars. 1 series is a two door RWD coupe; A3 is a Mark V chassis - essentially GTI - 4 door wagon. No overlap at all.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:33 AM
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There is zero competition between these cars. 1 series is a two door RWD coupe; A3 is a Mark V chassis - essentially GTI - 4 door wagon. No overlap at all.
Only to those who know te difference - to the general populace who'll think they're getting into the "entry-level" premium car marketplace - these two will run head to head - especially the 128.

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  #49  
Old 12-02-2007, 01:59 PM
BlackJetE90 BlackJetE90 is offline
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There is zero competition between these cars. 1 series is a two door RWD coupe; A3 is a Mark V chassis - essentially GTI - 4 door wagon. No overlap at all.
Well over in Europe the A3 is a competitor to the 1-series, period.


Name a luxury US competitor to the 135i and don't say the EVO and STI (econoboxes, boy-racer).


Side note: Why don't you mention what Bimmer you drive, moped?

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  #50  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:44 PM
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Along the lines of weight, I have a question about size...

I've been assuming that the 135 cabin is smaller than the 335 coupe. However, I was just browsing the official brochures for both cars, and the dimensions listed for each imply that the 135 has the larger back seat.

From the brochure, the end section with the dimensional schematic shows the backseat width and height for the 135 is 55.0 and 37.1 inches, respectively. The 335 lists 51.9 inches for back seat width and 36.8 inches for height.

Am I missing something? Or is it just how the backseat is packaged? Has anyone sat in the backseat of a 135 that could comment on roominess relative to the E92?



But who really cares about the back seat? Well, in addition to my spirited mountain road daily commute, I frequently find myself as the driver at lunch time for 3 of my colleagues, so it would be a minor perk to have a bigger cabin than the 335 coupe.
Mag reviews say the 335 back seat space is bigger than the G37, G37 back seat space is greater than the 135?
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