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X3 E83 (2004 - 2010)
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  #251  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:15 AM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Sorry, I'm not yet buying a blanket statement of the transmission being the source of all safety concerns.

There are many of us that are satisfied with our ATs. And a couple of members have now reported similar behavior with their MT equipped vehicles.

As evidenced by Evl's situation, it seems to boil down to individual cases of incorrect programming or software/hardware malfunction. From what I see, the most recent developments in his particular case indicate higher level engine control issues in the DME and not directly with the AT, which as I understand it, is controlled by the EGS.

If higher level management systems are malfunctioning, it seems logical to me that the symptoms would be noticed and amplified more readily in the AT since it has its own "brain" and its actions must be coordinated and synched with the rest of the power train(including X-Drive and DSC/DTC sensors). In other words, if the engine can't make up its mind about what to do, then the transmission obviously can't react timely or correctly. MT/engine coordination is not so greatly affected because the driver, acting independently, decides the gear selection and engagement by replacing the ATs EGS "brain" with gray matter and performing the shifting with muscle and bone. Since the driver is deciding the shifting, quite possibly they are muting the effects of or consciously/sub-consciously compensating for engine management flaws that are more apparent when the transmission has to wait on the engine or other command before proceeding.

Unfortunately, for those with suspected transmission issues, the problem seems to be convincing the Service Managers and mechanics to dig deep enough to find the underlying cause. For these prices and for a corporation of BMW's reputation, it should not require a customer to expend their own energy and have to go to an outside agency to prove that something was not done correctly. At least in some dealerships, BMW's QC is broken and I even question their ability to properly locate faults as evidenced by Evl's nightmare.
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  #252  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:25 AM
Tlon Tlon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davelv View Post
Everyone: The X3 transmission is dangerous as noted by many many posters.

This is certainly something that the NHTSA can force BMW to recall.
Except that the few users on this board noticing a problem do not represent the entire X3 driving populace. Even on this there are plenty of 07 and 08 drivers who do not have the problem. That probably means that it is not worthy of a recall and really points to some poor production issues.
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  #253  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:28 AM
Tlon Tlon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
Sorry, I'm not yet buying a blanket statement of the transmission being the source of all safety concerns.

There are many of us that are satisfied with our ATs. And a couple of members have now reported similar behavior with their MT equipped vehicles.

As evidenced by Evl's situation, it seems to boil down to individual cases of incorrect programming or software/hardware malfunction. From what I see, the most recent developments in his particular case indicate higher level engine control issues in the DME and not directly with the AT, which as I understand it, is controlled by the EGS.

If higher level management systems are malfunctioning, it seems logical to me that the symptoms would be noticed and amplified more readily in the AT since it has its own "brain" and its actions must be coordinated and synched with the rest of the power train(including X-Drive and DSC/DTC sensors). In other words, if the engine can't make up its mind about what to do, then the transmission obviously can't react timely or correctly. MT/engine coordination is not so greatly affected because the driver, acting independently, decides the gear selection and engagement by replacing the ATs EGS "brain" with gray matter and performing the shifting with muscle and bone. Since the driver is deciding the shifting, quite possibly they are muting the effects of or consciously/sub-consciously compensating for engine management flaws that are more apparent when the transmission has to wait on the engine or other command before proceeding.

Unfortunately, for those with suspected transmission issues, the problem seems to be convincing the Service Managers and mechanics to dig deep enough to find the underlying cause. For these prices and for a corporation of BMW's reputation, it should not require a customer to expend their own energy and have to go to an outside agency to prove that something was not done correctly. At least in some dealerships, BMW's QC is broken and I even question their ability to properly locate faults as evidenced by Evl's nightmare.
Hear, hear!!! I've been saying this all along. While the solutions I've proposed are not necessarily the right ones for everyone, most of what people have been describing could be probelms with any number of systems, the transmission probably being the least significant one. Since when is poor acceleration a transmission issue unless there is a sudden, unexpected down shift? There is something wrong with the way some cars are getting power. In my case, it was easily, though not ideally, fixed. I'm sure other cars have a severe enough problem that a more radical solution is needed. I'd be willing to be that continuing to blame the transmission is misleading the techs and not in any way helping to solve the problem for the few cars that have it.
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  #254  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:41 AM
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STE92VE STE92VE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
Sorry, I'm not yet buying a blanket statement of the transmission being the source of all safety concerns.

There are many of us that are satisfied with our ATs. And a couple of members have now reported similar behavior with their MT equipped vehicles.

As evidenced by Evl's situation, it seems to boil down to individual cases of incorrect programming or software/hardware malfunction. From what I see, the most recent developments in his particular case indicate higher level engine control issues in the DME and not directly with the AT, which as I understand it, is controlled by the EGS.

If higher level management systems are malfunctioning, it seems logical to me that the symptoms would be noticed and amplified more readily in the AT since it has its own "brain" and its actions must be coordinated and synched with the rest of the power train(including X-Drive and DSC/DTC sensors). In other words, if the engine can't make up its mind about what to do, then the transmission obviously can't react timely or correctly. MT/engine coordination is not so greatly affected because the driver, acting independently, decides the gear selection and engagement by replacing the ATs EGS "brain" with gray matter and performing the shifting with muscle and bone. Since the driver is deciding the shifting, quite possibly they are muting the effects of or consciously/sub-consciously compensating for engine management flaws that are more apparent when the transmission has to wait on the engine or other command before proceeding.

Unfortunately, for those with suspected transmission issues, the problem seems to be convincing the Service Managers and mechanics to dig deep enough to find the underlying cause. For these prices and for a corporation of BMW's reputation, it should not require a customer to expend their own energy and have to go to an outside agency to prove that something was not done correctly. At least in some dealerships, BMW's QC is broken and I even question their ability to properly locate faults as evidenced by Evl's nightmare.
Interesting points...

Has anyone raised the issue that it might be a fuel delivery problem since it seems to happen when making a turn?
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  #255  
Old 03-27-2008, 07:04 AM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STE92VE View Post
Has anyone raised the issue that it might be a fuel delivery problem since it seems to happen when making a turn?
Not that I'm aware of. I believe at least one member has had the turning problem fixed by getting a steering wheel angle sensor replaced.
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  #256  
Old 03-27-2008, 09:09 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Arrow Troubleshooting 101 - Process of Elimination!!!!!!!!!!

I have suggested a simple trouble shooting many times, as others have recently stated.

Run a detailed "Black Box" on a troublesome vehicle.

This is to take the data from a "Working" model and compare it to a problematic vehicle and see where the disparites ly. A no brainer.

The other is to simply replace the the ECU to one that has been bench tested and "Spec'd" to BMW's requirements. This eliminates that as part of the problem.

We will not know if it is a fuel delivery problem since BMW will not trouble shoot this properly.

This is also not isolated to turning, but very prominent in cold weather (an awd that is not dependable in cold weather? Yeah that makes sense)

IMO the reason BMW has NOT done any of these simple trouble-shooting techniques is that they will have to ADMIT there is something wrong.


This is only reinforced by the new stance of "No Problem Found" that the dealers and BMWNA have adopted.

Until someone is injured or BMWNA is pulled into court they will not address this.

Therefore the only recourse is to file with the NHTSA, BBB, AG's Office of Consumer Protection, file a Lemon Lawsuit, and so on. Also, please take the time to post on as many websites as possible.
New buyers certainly check the internet and they will now know that BMW does not take care of their problems, let alone a major one IMO. I have personally seen or steared several buyers away from BMW due to this attitude. In my family alone three new vehicles have been purchased in the $40k plus bracket that were not BMW's. And I have private PM's and e mails of people that have returned or replaced their X3's due to BMWNA's poor response on this.

P

Last edited by Evlengr; 03-27-2008 at 10:39 AM.
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  #257  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:35 AM
MJS MJS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STE92VE View Post
Interesting points...

Has anyone raised the issue that it might be a fuel delivery problem since it seems to happen when making a turn?
The transmission problem isn't limited to turning events. Mine has issues when cold and downshifting between 20-40 MPH.
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  #258  
Old 03-27-2008, 04:19 PM
x3ml x3ml is offline
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Post The Top 10 List:

Signs that your premium car brand is failing you:


10. Vehicles born with major flaws

9. A year later, still no permanent fix

8. "cannot duplicate concerns" ďno problems foundĒ and "its supposed to drive like that"

7. Itís your fault

6. Parts take weeks to arrive while you grew attached to other brands' loaner

5. Stock price tanks and management sees itís just not the right time to focus on current customers

4. Temporary fixes, working or not, still cost nothing for the duration of the warranty period

3. You are forced with unwanted techs that are hard to use, break down often and pose driving distractions

2. You are required to do your own research in web forums, memorize service numbers and consider attending anger management classes

and

1. Dealers won't take back your year old vehicle because "it won't sell"



Note: This list exists for entertainment purposes, items depicted should not be considered factual information and any similarity to actual events is merely coincidental.
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  #259  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:02 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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This is a recent review from cars.com:

"The engine is potent, starting off with adequate power and coming on much stronger at higher revs. Unfortunately, it's hamstrung by the problematic transmission. The automatic in my test car repeatedly bogged down in lower gears, offering premature shifts before the engine could hit its stride. In stop-and-go driving, it made for awkward starts followed by sudden bursts of unsolicited power. The transmission's Sport Mode, which holds gears for longer periods, mitigated this a bit, but its higher-rev shifts sometimes felt unnatural and strained.

BMW says the transmission is a "learning" one that modifies its behavior depending on the type of driver behind the wheel. Still, even after several of us had driven it - at times attempting to train it - the response remained erratic and not to our liking. The transmission's hiccups may not be common to all X3s, but if you test-drive one make sure to pay close attention to acceleration smoothness from a complete stop."

It seems BMWNA is not sweeping this under the carpet like they imagined.

Last edited by Evlengr; 03-27-2008 at 06:04 PM.
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  #260  
Old 03-28-2008, 12:43 PM
doubledeclutch doubledeclutch is offline
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Does anyone know the status of the latest software patch that supposedly got pulled at the last moment because it had problems? Did they ever re-release it?
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  #261  
Old 03-28-2008, 03:49 PM
berbutler berbutler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledeclutch View Post
Does anyone know the status of the latest software patch that supposedly got pulled at the last moment because it had problems? Did they ever re-release it?
OK - I had my 03/07 build X3 in for an oil service yesterday and I discussed the transmission issue with the service manager, whom I showed the latest SIB info I had.

Here is the info from my service invoice for you guys:

"Tech did not verify complaint, but found SIB 24 08 07. A per SIB 24 08 07, DME also at latest software level.

Performed DME and EGS control unit update as per SIB 12 17 07 and SIB 24 08 07.

During DME reprogram, error occurred and tech had perform SIB 09 04 06.

Finally completetd DME reprogram and performed adaption of EGS as per SIB 24 11 07.
(All prinouts attached)


I did not receive the printouts, but may go back later for them.

Does anybody know what all these different SIB's are?

I am heading off to the mountains this weekend on a 300 mile trip, so I shall see how this reprogramming went and report back next week.

Cheers,

BB
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  #262  
Old 03-28-2008, 04:39 PM
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kjboyd kjboyd is offline
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they are the software updates to the transmission computer and the DME main car computer.
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2007 X3.0si PlatBronze/Beige
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1979 528iA, RubyRed, Tan
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  #263  
Old 03-28-2008, 04:56 PM
berbutler berbutler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
they are the software updates to the transmission computer and the DME main car computer.
Yes I know that - I was hoping someone had more specific info on exactly what each of those SIB's do -possibly even post them individually if someone here has access to them.

Cheers,

BB
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  #264  
Old 03-28-2008, 05:46 PM
matti matti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
This is a recent review from cars.com:

"The engine is potent, starting off with adequate power and coming on much stronger at higher revs. Unfortunately, it's hamstrung by the problematic transmission. The automatic in my test car repeatedly bogged down in lower gears, offering premature shifts before the engine could hit its stride. In stop-and-go driving, it made for awkward starts followed by sudden bursts of unsolicited power. The transmission's Sport Mode, which holds gears for longer periods, mitigated this a bit, but its higher-rev shifts sometimes felt unnatural and strained.....
This is a good description of the problem especially the awkward starts and sudden burst of speed. I think that 2/3 of the problem is throttle response and 1/3 transmission related. The combination makes for annoying driving in city traffic. The worst problems occur at less than 40 km/hr in stop and start driving for me. It does bog when accelerating from speeds around 40 km/hr. After 1 year I cannot figure this thing out because of the inconsistent responses.
I've asked the dealer to buy this thing back and am awaiting a response.
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  #265  
Old 03-28-2008, 06:41 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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BMW has a unique habit of being extremely cryptic with any information as if the cold war still existed and they held secret plans to a new weapon.


If you want to know what are the newest SIB's for your vehicle, you have to buy them. You have to buy the answers to fixing your vehicle? That is absoultely insulting, and only fans the flames of irritatation.


BB you have the newest SIB updates available. Be very careful as initially the resetting of the ECU "electronic control unit" will give you the false sense that all is right with the world. When cold weather hits you will be right back where you started. The whole adaptive process takes less than 150 miles if driven in a staccato manner. meaning use D use SD and then shift using SD.

Read the post I copied (above) from a group of professional drivers from Cars.com.

Good Luck on getting your car bought back. I am told if you are really nice and kiss their behinds they might let you get rid of your car (para-phrased with my ususual sarcasm from someone that PM'd me with how they got rid of theirs).

I was once told that the SA was mad at me and wouldn't talk to me because I gave BMW a bad review. I asked if it was past his nap time, and that I would check back later.

Yeahhhhh the "Ultimate Experience" .

Feel free to PM me with any questions or information as I will not post your call or real name. So far I now can count 27 people that have returned, replaced, or traded up on thier X3's. Maybe I can help you.

Last edited by Evlengr; 03-28-2008 at 06:50 PM.
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  #266  
Old 03-28-2008, 10:02 PM
Lance Alot Lance Alot is offline
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2008 Transmission Experience

So, I clocked the first 1800 miles on our 2008 X3. It has an early December build date, and so far I'm VERY happy with the car. The fit, finish, and handling are all superby. I have found the Automatic transmission to be acceptable but certainly not perfect. It hasn't had any hestitation issues at all, but I have had a couple of odd things happen that I wanted to get opinions on.

First of all, I had one occasion when I went into sports mode to pass someone, and the car held a gear (4th or 5th gear way too long. It ended up reving close to redline range before I let of the gas and put her back into normal drive mode. I haven't been able to replicate this, but I am keeping an eye out to see if it repeats itself.

Secondly, the car consistently tends to hold gears too long on hills. Even if I'm driving casually (not trying to accelerate), it wants to get over 4K RPM before shifting when traveling up hills. On flats or downhills, it shifts around where I would expect.

I would consider both of these issues to be minor, but the second one is somewhat annoying. I don't know if this will eventually fix itself via the adaptive process or if it's something that continues or gets worse. Does anyone have any insights?
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  #267  
Old 03-28-2008, 10:17 PM
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kjboyd kjboyd is offline
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The trans will not shift into 6th if you are in SD mode ... you have to shift into 6th manually.
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-------

2007 Volvo S60 2.5T
2007 X3.0si PlatBronze/Beige
2006 X3 3.0i, Flamenco Red/Beige
1997 528iA, Oxford/Tan
1994 318iS, Black/Gray
1979 528iA, RubyRed, Tan
1971 2002, Sahara, Saddle
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  #268  
Old 03-28-2008, 10:25 PM
Lance Alot Lance Alot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
The trans will not shift into 6th if you are in SD mode ... you have to shift into 6th manually.
Ahhh... that makes sense. I'll have to remember that when using SD. Thanks KJ!
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  #269  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:32 AM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Alot View Post
First of all, I had one occasion when I went into sports mode to pass someone, and the car held a gear (4th or 5th gear way too long. It ended up reving close to redline range before I let of the gas and put her back into normal drive mode. I haven't been able to replicate this, but I am keeping an eye out to see if it repeats itself.

Secondly, the car consistently tends to hold gears too long on hills. Even if I'm driving casually (not trying to accelerate), it wants to get over 4K RPM before shifting when traveling up hills. On flats or downhills, it shifts around where I would expect.

I would consider both of these issues to be minor, but the second one is somewhat annoying. I don't know if this will eventually fix itself via the adaptive process or if it's something that continues or gets worse. Does anyone have any insights?
I experience the exact same behavior. While the gear holding on hills sure doesn't help the gas mileage, I rationalize it, rightly I think, as the programmers' attempts to keep the engine in the appropriate place in the powerband to compensate for the uphill incline and provide the car with the same amount of acceleration as you would expect on flat ground if you needed to suddenly move. To me it appears appropriate that BMW would do this. I experience this every day because I live on a hill. If I manually upshift at an RPM less than what the shift programming wants I get more of a loss of momentum than I would on flat ground. As a first time BMW owner, I'm slowly getting used to the fact that BMWs have low torque at low revs and need higher revs to compensate. When the program drives the revs too high for my taste, I just do a manual upshift.

KJ - thanks for tip on SD mode.
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  #270  
Old 03-29-2008, 08:19 AM
700kq 700kq is offline
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Golf Tee Mod

After a long test drive I decided to get the 07 X3. I did get to do some stop and go mostly from stop lights did not notice any problems. After a few days of driving I noticed the stalling and most were from starts from stops with turns. I searched the forum and found the reset trans postings. I did not fully understand because they where not specific to the X3. Most had press the start button which the X3 does not have. I tried the reset but no difference in drivability. After finding another thread it said to turn key to position 1 air bag lights should come on, press pedal to the floor for 25 seconds, press brake then start. Still no difference.



I also noticed that the X3 will slow down when you remove your foot from the gas pedal. I always touch the brake to kill the cruise when getting of the exit ramp going home. My trade in was Auto and I also have 2 trucks with Auto and kill the cruise about the same spot every time on the off ramp. This ramp is up hill and I usually need very little brake to come to a stop. The first night I hit this off ramp I killed the cruise on the X3 and in started to slow down very quickly, It got so slow I had to get back on the gas to get up the hill. I also noted several times how much the X3 would slow down at speed under 40 mph also. I talked to my CA and he said it was because the X3 was AWD ??? IMO this is the "Jake Brake" effect to save on wear on the brakes on BMW's so they don't have to replace the so often.



I decided to do a little detail work on the X3 the tail pipes were very dull. I got down to polish them and noticed that one had a closed valve in it. I have a Suzuki M109R That also uses this type system to improve low end power. After the failed attempts of getting the trans to work better I was looking at post and noticed one for "Golf Tee Mod". I found the switch and hoses in rear and tried to remove hose. Did not want to force it and was running late for an appointment. When I got back home I check again and the motor running pulled one of the hoses off. I used a cap plug over the switch to stop the vacuum off. I checked the valve and it was open now. Went for a test drive and what a difference it made. No hesitation on starts from turns and no slowing down when I removed my foot from the gas pedal at speed. Is still downshifts at slower speed but has no neck snapping. I noticed before sometimes when down shifting it would rev the motor up some also, this no longer happens.



I was thinking maybe this vacuum controlled valve does not work quick enough to help the acceleration from a stop. Also I am a machinist and know first hand that metals expand when heated maybe this valve in the tail pipe is getting hot and expanding causing it to stick closed.



I was wondering if anyone with trans problems has tried the "Golf Tee Mod"?
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  #271  
Old 03-29-2008, 04:10 PM
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Andrew*Debbie Andrew*Debbie is offline
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Consumer Reports has released new predicted-reliability scores. We finally have a good year+ worth of data for the 2007 X3.

While CR does have its flaws, it is the best scientific survey published. BMW presumably has better data, but they don't share it.

Anyone interested in the full text can pick up the April issue of CR or get an on-line subscription.


Summary

Overall, the X3 has been improving and is on CRs recommended list for the first time. It is not the least or most reliable BMW either.

Quote:
We're also seeing a few positives with European SUVs. The BMW X3 and the six-cylinder versions of the BMW X5 and Volvo XC90 are average in reliability. But all Mercedes-Benz and Land Rover SUVs still have well-below-average reliability.


Trouble Spots

I've included CRs definitions of the trouble areas because the "transmission problem" involves several systems. I've added red color to the trouble areas that contain systems that could contribute to the "transmission problem". Not included are areas of the X3 that are nearly trouble free.

Transmission Minor -- White circle or less than 2% but more than 1% of cars in the survey

Transmission, minor: Gear selector or linkage, coolers and lines, rough shifting, slipping transmission, leaks, transmission computer, transmission sensor or solenoid, clutch adjustment, hydraulics (clutch master or slave cylinder).


Drive System Half red or <1% of the cars in the survey.

Drive system: Driveshaft or axle, CV joint, wheel bearing(s), differential, transfer case, 4WD/AWD components, driveline vibration, traction control, stability control, electrical failure.

Fuel System Half Red or <1%

Fuel system: Check engine light, sensors (includes O2 or oxygen sensor), emission control devices (includes EGR), engine computer, fuel cap, fuel gauge/sender, fuel injection system, fuel pump, fuel tank, fuel leaks, stalling or hesitation.

Electrical System Half Red or <1%

Electrical: Alternator, starter, battery, battery cables, engine harness, coil, ignition switch, electronic ignition, distributor or rotor failure, spark plugs and wires failure, sensors or module.

Climate System Half Red <1%

Squeaks and Rattles <1%

Body Hardware <1%

Power Equip. Black Circle or >3%

Power equipment and accessories: Cruise control, heated or cooled seats, body control module, keyless entry, wiper motor or washer, tire pressure monitor, interior or exterior lights, horn, gauges, 12V power plug, alarm or security system, backup camera/sensors.


Audio System Black Circle or >3%


=====================


Hard data is good.

At this point I have no other comments.



Andrew
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The models and equipment (standard and optional) illustrated in this post reflect my misunderstanding of vehicles supplied by BMW AG to the German market. In other EU member states, the truthyness of my posts may vary. Please ignore this post. Subject to change.

Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 03-29-2008 at 04:27 PM.
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  #272  
Old 03-29-2008, 04:20 PM
doubledeclutch doubledeclutch is offline
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Location: Los Angeles
 
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I have been looking for this kind of data for a long time. Thanks Andrew! I'm off to pick up the April issue at the magazine rack.
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  #273  
Old 03-29-2008, 07:49 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
Ukemi - that's how I roll
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A/D unless this data is collected from several hundred different X3's and not several X3's I can't respectfully disagree with you more on calling this "scientific data". And is not the result of culling data from BMWNA's own records.

Although the poll done on this website was based on personal opinion of several hundred drivers it was based on a large sample.

Can you please tell us how many people were polled in this data?


If they show objective supporting poll data I might be swayed.

Until then, for those of us that have almost been killed, posting this as the de facto commentary on the X3 is as much as a slap in the face as what BMWNA is doing recently by hiding behind the comments, "No Problem Found".

I can post contrary commentary from many popular magazines including BMW CCA's own "Roundel" driver that called the 07 X3's transmission "Herky Jerky" (pretty bad when the bmw enthusiast magazine pans their bretheren).

Again this is the same magazine that gave hi marks to the Pinto. Sorry but quoting consumer reports as a reliable source is like calling Omni magazine a reliable source for scientific information.

I have pm's and e mails from 27 drivers that have recently replaced their X3's that would also disagree. Heck one guy replaced his with less than 4k of mileage.

Last edited by Evlengr; 03-29-2008 at 08:34 PM.
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  #274  
Old 03-29-2008, 08:28 PM
Bobert Bobert is offline
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Location: NC
 
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Mein Auto: X3
I wouldn't put much faith in any numbers CR has gathered. CR is pretty much worthless rag to be honest. They can't even recommend a decent reliable toaster. It doesn't take much effort looking outside this forum to find similar complaints about the herky jerky automatic transmission on the 2007-08 X3.

And besides there have already been about 4 or 5 software version changes already to the transmission software so something is obviously going on. If it tranny was good from the get go I doubt BMW would want to mess with it so many updates. The dealer we go to has also acknowledged numerous complaints from people with 2007-08 automatic X3's, so it's not isolated to a few X3's.
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  #275  
Old 03-30-2008, 05:24 AM
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Andrew*Debbie Andrew*Debbie is offline
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Location: Anglesey
 
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I posted the CR results because I have access to them and wanted to share.

CR surveys are flawed, but it is better then just about anything else we can get. BMW NA is not going to share their data with us. Not ever.


Consumer Reports claim to use accepted scientific statistical methods to determine the minimum sample size that would give meaningful results.


I am an engineer working at a research university. Debbie is a PhD actively involved in scientific research. I understand statistics and don't have a problem with using a sample to predict a population. Remember that this is predicted reliability based on a statistic sample. Individual units will vary from the prediction. The entire population might behave differently then the prediction, but that is unlikely. Our X3 has done far better than the CR prediction. Our MX-5 has done worse than the CR prediction.


My issues have to do with the survey itself and how they report the results. The survey doesn't always ask the right questions. The survey can't address the complexity of the interaction between the DME and the EGS. CR dumbs down the results into those color coded charts. A nasty transmission software problem is lumped into "Transmission Minor". If BMW replaced the stereo head-unit in the X3 with something reliable, the X3's overall predicted-reliability would jump way up in the chart. (Why BMW hasn't done that is beyond me. Maybe BMW AG doesn't care about Consumer Reports)


Sample size alone is meaningless. You need the rest of the information about the statistics to form a valid conclusion about the report. CR should make their stats available.

In any case, I've sent CR an email asking for the 2007 X3 sample size. If they respond, I will post it.
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The models and equipment (standard and optional) illustrated in this post reflect my misunderstanding of vehicles supplied by BMW AG to the German market. In other EU member states, the truthyness of my posts may vary. Please ignore this post. Subject to change.

Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 03-30-2008 at 06:07 AM.
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