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X3 E83 (2004 - 2010)
Talk about the E83 BMW X3 in this forum!

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  #126  
Old 02-20-2008, 06:41 AM
el-sea el-sea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
El-sea, your attorney should have told you not to discuss it with any BMWNA agent of any sort at this time. I was told in order for the attorney to do their job correctly it helps avoid the "He said--She said" syndrome. In other words no one can claim that one party or another said something they didn't. (As we are somewhat anonymous on this board)
The people that have the constant optimism with the X3 are the ones that don't have the problem. And using their logic their is a multitude of people that don't know about web sites like this or are afraid to step forward with this problem. So you don't hear about them either.


Now to play devil's advocate I can understand why they feels this way.

When a BMW runs right it's awesome. When it doesn't its dangerous.

I have had a 528xi loaner for the better part of four days now. Even my wife who has not been in my X3 since the last episode commented on how nice it shifted and how smooth the acceleration is. This has made me consider the 335xi as a replacement for the X3 because it has AWD and a different transmission (kinda' throws the, "All AWD's drive this way out the window response" I got from the dealer). It seems to be in the same price point as the X3 so it seems for me to be a logical replacement.

So next time the dealer says all AWD's drive this was, ask them to take a cruise in one of the AWD Xi models that have the different transmission. Then have them try to explain their way out of it again.

I dont know what the common denominator is at this point, but maybe like the old detroit joke, this is a Monday car. We will probably never know since BMWNA is very guarded about the smallest thing, let along this crappy tranny.

Don't buy the hype. If you have one of the bad transmissions it's not going to get better. BMWNA has been given over a year to correct this. Their latest SIB release damaged the DME beyond use.

Just ask for a Trade Assist, and if they say no, just send a letter to BMWNA informing them you will seek Lemon Law actions. This was they have no choice to but deal with it.
If you choose another X3 that is up to you, but at least this way it up to you!
As of the day I hired the attorney and picked up my car from the 3rd dealer I haven't talked with BMW anyone. Are you saying that I was talking to BMWNA on this web site? Are you also saying that BMW never installed the Oct. software on your X#? Mine was installed and it made it worse. How do I know if it was as you guys are sayin "bricked"?

Last edited by el-sea; 02-20-2008 at 06:50 AM.
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  #127  
Old 02-20-2008, 06:58 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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El-Sea,

I think your safe since this site is not run or owned by BMW.

However, try to keep your identity anonymous by not divulging key information as BMWNA does have a service they call "Vatkens" that scans BMW websites.

It is a service designed to help, but in light of the money at risk with all these faulty cars its only human nature to use whatever information is at their disposal to gain the upper hand.


As far as the SIB updates. Who knows at this point. I have yet to get a straight answer since BMWNA is not communicating to its clients, and that is the majority of the problem.

If anything BMWNA has brought this on themselves by their lack of proper communication.

The key to my suggestions are to let you make the choice that is best for you with legal advice, not what is best for BMWNA.

A good lawyer will help weed out all the BS and get to the heart of the matter.

Good Luck.
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  #128  
Old 02-20-2008, 07:17 AM
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Andrew*Debbie Andrew*Debbie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el-sea View Post
How do I know if it was as you guys are sayin "bricked"?
Bricked is an engineering term for a failed firmware update.

A bricked DME is useless. Same as if someone replaced your DME with a brick. Your car wouldn't even start.
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Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 02-20-2008 at 07:19 AM.
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  #129  
Old 02-20-2008, 08:48 AM
viii_ball viii_ball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
However, try to keep your identity anonymous by not divulging key information as BMWNA does have a service they call "Vatkens" that scans BMW websites.
When I called BMWNA, they actually gave me a human's name for Vatkens. He had already logged a case based on posting my experience here.
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  #130  
Old 02-20-2008, 08:58 AM
viii_ball viii_ball is offline
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Long post with previous information

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
In my experience, most SA's/mechanics sincerely try to help you but they're only human. My approach is to always help them help me by narrowing down the specific parameters/symptoms of the problem as much as possible and to make sure they're consistent and repeatable during a test drive/demonstration. If you can easily prove your complaint then it's easier for them to help. Once the SA/mechanic agrees with you that somethings not right, then it becomes their obligation to fix it even if a fix isn't immediately available.
I took the Service Manager and his shop foreman for a test drive and was able to consistently repeat all 5 issues I experience with the AT in my 2008 X3. After the test drive I constructed an email outling the problem with the explanation as given to me by the mechanic, asking for confirmation of what I understood. Here is the email I sent and two weeks later have not received a confirmation, just an acknowledgment of my email.

As others have posted, BMW is not "agreeing" that there is a problem, as you can tell from the "justifications" given below. And this is leading to a lot of our frustration.

***************************
Dear SM:

Thank you for your time last night. Could you share with your shop foreman (sorry his name escapes me) the information below and have him verify that what I experience with the transmission of the X3 is explained as he did last night.

Lack of immediate throttle response - this is an electronically controlled transmission (as opposed to a cable) and the brain needs a second or so to think and send an instruction to the transmission for a response

Lack of acceleration or feel of not getting out of the way during corner or turn (binding feeling) - this is the stability control taking over and not allowing the car to accelerate so that the driver does not experience under or over steer

Feeling every gear change as the car up shifts - BMW engineers their cars so that the drivers "feel" the car. They could program this out but its a conscious choice to give a feel to the vehicle

Hard shifting and binding feel when in traffic - BMW has a 1-2 1-2 transmission lock that if it senses consecutive shifts from 1st gear to 2nd, back to 1st and into 2nd it will lock into 2nd gear as a way to "save fuel" during stop and go traffic.

Binding and noticeable down shifting when rolling to a stop - this is a characteristic of the AWD. You feel things because the front transmission mechanisms are still turning.
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  #131  
Old 02-20-2008, 09:22 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viii_ball View Post
When I called BMWNA, they actually gave me a human's name for Vatkens. He had already logged a case based on posting my experience here.
8 Ball "Vatkens" = customer service. Not to dredge this up again, but Vatkens is code for their customer service folks.

They are BMW employee(s) but not employee.

I got a female when I asked for "Vatkens".

Glad you could replicate the issues.

Are those the explanations the shop foreman gave you?

The answer to the "Throttle Response" scares me as an acceptable response since accident avoidance is based on split second timing, and there is no hi end vehicle on the market Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, etc... that would say our cars are great because they react slowly or after the fact.

If anything based on current CPU technology--they should react faster, not slower.


The AWD response is not acceptable either since none of the other BMW AWD's do this. Ask him to replicate that in a 5 series AWD (different tranny).

Feeling gear shifts. Again ask them to replicate that in another AWD that doesn't have the GM6 tranny. Won't happen..smooth as butter upshifting.

Binding during down shift. Funny all the AWD's I had prior to the BMW and the other non GM6 AWD's don't do this either.


I won't pretend to know the other parts well enough to comment.

Last edited by Evlengr; 02-20-2008 at 09:37 AM.
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  #132  
Old 02-20-2008, 09:50 AM
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Like I've said before, those explanations are bs. I wonder how severe it must be......seriously it can't be "normal".
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  #133  
Old 02-20-2008, 10:12 AM
doubledeclutch doubledeclutch is offline
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The Porsche Cayenne had a hesitation problem. It pissed allot of owners off, and allot didn't care, but it turns out it was just how the car was designed. On the facelifted version, you can escape the problem completely only if you are in sport mode.
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  #134  
Old 02-20-2008, 11:03 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Ahhhh Ahhh Ahhh CHooo (BS)

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Originally Posted by doubledeclutch View Post
The Porsche Cayenne had a hesitation problem. It pissed allot of owners off, and allot didn't care, but it turns out it was just how the car was designed. On the facelifted version, you can escape the problem completely only if you are in sport mode.

DD the problem is that the explanations are sweeping generalizations to the BMW line. Not this one vehicle, I have heard on more than several occasions from my shop foreman to many others across the nation (via Bimmefest posts) that BMW's are designed to "Feel" the upshift.

Yet when I drive any of the loaners that don't have the GM6 trannsmission this "Feel' does not occur.

And it's not just me with my one year experience of BMW but multiple well respected posters that see the same flaw in the explanations.

Hence the cry of Achhhhooooo (BS)
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  #135  
Old 02-20-2008, 12:30 PM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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I don't think I can say it much better than EE did below but I'll add a couple of my own comments FWIW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viii_ball View Post
As others have posted, BMW is not "agreeing" that there is a problem, as you can tell from the "justifications" given below. And this is leading to a lot of our frustration.
I definitely see your frustration and I can see why he doesn't want to "confirm" the BS below. I'm extremely fortunate not to have to deal with that and wish everybody luck with getting it resolved. I don't mean to make you guys have to rehash it all again, I just can't keep all the details of everybody's case straight in my head and just thought I'd throw out something that might help.

#3 - I kind of agree with. I bought the BMW for a sporty ride as long as doesn't spill drinks shifting in Drive. My current one shifts so smooth I imagine myself in a Buick.

#5 - is absolutely the biggest crock I've ever heard. If that's the case why are downshifts in Manual nearly imperceptable?

***************************
Quote:
Lack of immediate throttle response
Quote:
- this is an electronically controlled transmission (as opposed to a cable) and the brain needs a second or so to think and send an instruction to the transmission for a response

Lack of acceleration or feel of not getting out of the way during corner or turn (binding feeling) - this is the stability control taking over and not allowing the car to accelerate so that the driver does not experience under or over steer

Feeling every gear change as the car up shifts - BMW engineers their cars so that the drivers "feel" the car. They could program this out but its a conscious choice to give a feel to the vehicle

Hard shifting and binding feel when in traffic - BMW has a 1-2 1-2 transmission lock that if it senses consecutive shifts from 1st gear to 2nd, back to 1st and into 2nd it will lock into 2nd gear as a way to "save fuel" during stop and go traffic.

Binding and noticeable down shifting when rolling to a stop - this is a characteristic of the AWD. You feel things because the front transmission mechanisms are still turning.

Last edited by HT417; 02-20-2008 at 12:32 PM. Reason: formatting error
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  #136  
Old 02-20-2008, 12:40 PM
matti matti is offline
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I think I have a solution. As soon as the buyout on my lease is reasonably close to market value, I'm ditching this thing. I'll try my luck with another mfg. There's lots of them out there.
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  #137  
Old 02-20-2008, 01:07 PM
x3ml x3ml is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matti View Post
I think I have a solution. As soon as the buyout on my lease is reasonably close to market value, I'm ditching this thing. I'll try my luck with another mfg. There's lots of them out there.
Hey matti, that is NOT a "solution", but you have paid good money to learn a lesson. For me, I paid a premium car price and for over a year, the SD is unusable, the ride in D is bad 50% of the time. Anyway I looked at it, I paid good money for a bad return, and no one can compensate me the years' bad experience. (and counting)

One thing I notice though nobody seems to have mentioned, under similar situation, one day it seems shifting better than the other for no apparent reason.
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  #138  
Old 02-20-2008, 01:40 PM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x3ml View Post
One thing I notice though nobody seems to have mentioned, under similar situation, one day it seems shifting better than the other for no apparent reason.
I agree and I meant to mention that in another post. It always seems to shift slightly different, even in Manual mode.
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  #139  
Old 02-20-2008, 01:55 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Mine is at its best in warm weather, and its worst in cold.
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  #140  
Old 02-20-2008, 03:07 PM
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Terry J. Harris Terry J. Harris is offline
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I'm with you ML. While the "lease" approach was more affordable up front (and my first ever lease of a vehicle), I fully expected to buy my X3 at the lease end, and keep the X3 for many, many years. I drove my first BMW for 16+ years. I have been driving my second BMW for 5 years and have no plans at this point to rid myself of it. But for my erratic transmission performance with this X3, I have little to no doubt I would have kept it. The notion of leasing with no practical reason/option for buying the vehicle I've come to know over the term of the lease is disappointing, at best.

I think others of us have been discussing the erratic or intermittent nature of this performance problem. Just today again, after almost 2 weeks without it happening, I experienced one of those very brief bursts of unintended acceleration in D mode - very brief, but noticeable nonetheless. The car otherwise has driven fine today. Go figure. Again, another reminder out of nowhere that I shouldn't trust the thing.
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  #141  
Old 02-20-2008, 03:23 PM
viii_ball viii_ball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry J. Harris View Post
after almost 2 weeks without it happening, I experienced one of those very brief bursts of unintended acceleration in D mode - very brief, but noticeable nonetheless.
I am pretty sure I am jinxing myself here but moments of unintended acceleration is one feature that my AT has yet to exhibit. I guess you paid more for your X3 as I am sure its "supposed to do that".
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  #142  
Old 02-20-2008, 03:25 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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The unpredictable behavior is what makes it so dangerous. Just when you think, "Hey its finally adapted to my driving" it does something unexpected.

It's supposed to be a vehicle designed to get you out of trouble not into it.

Maybe they should make them all MT's, or maybe just maybe use a transmission that they know works.

Last edited by Evlengr; 02-20-2008 at 03:28 PM.
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  #143  
Old 02-20-2008, 04:47 PM
el-sea el-sea is offline
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changes in response

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Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
I agree and I meant to mention that in another post. It always seems to shift slightly different, even in Manual mode.
Check the outside temp next time. Mine is very sensitive to freezing temps and really acts up. I didn't even realize it untill I saw it on this thread.
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  #144  
Old 02-20-2008, 04:49 PM
el-sea el-sea is offline
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temps

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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
Mine is at its best in warm weather, and its worst in cold.
oops. just saw your response. ditto with mine.
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  #145  
Old 02-20-2008, 04:53 PM
el-sea el-sea is offline
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unintended accelleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by viii_ball View Post
I am pretty sure I am jinxing myself here but moments of unintended acceleration is one feature that my AT has yet to exhibit. I guess you paid more for your X3 as I am sure its "supposed to do that".
Unfortunately I am happy to see that I am not the only one with this problem. I have almost rear ended someone 3 different times. This is a danger in LA traffic. Heck any traffic! BMW needs to address the danger of this even if it doesn't replicate itself with a SA in the drivers seat.

Last edited by el-sea; 02-20-2008 at 05:14 PM.
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  #146  
Old 02-21-2008, 05:26 AM
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Andrew*Debbie Andrew*Debbie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matti View Post
I think I have a solution. As soon as the buyout on my lease is reasonably close to market value,
Bad idea. Two reasons:

Do you have a conscience? From what I've read here, this is a safety issue, not a minor inconvenience.

Don't sell your leased X3 to get away from the transmission problem. It will cost you money.

BMWs are rarely worth the lease residual. For 2007 and 2008 the X3 has a heavily subvented lease. It will never be worth residual.

Current residual on a 2 year /24,000mile lease is 76% of MSRP. You can buy an X3 for maybe $1,500 over invoice. A two year old X3 without CPO coverage is not worth 77-80+% of what you paid for it new.

Better idea:

It will be far more cost effective to get a trade assist from BMW. If BMW NA won't do that, look into your state's Lemon Law.
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Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 02-21-2008 at 05:31 AM.
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  #147  
Old 02-21-2008, 12:59 PM
matti matti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew*Debbie View Post
Bad idea. Two reasons:

Do you have a conscience? From what I've read here, this is a safety issue, not a minor inconvenience.

Don't sell your leased X3 to get away from the transmission problem. It will cost you money.

BMWs are rarely worth the lease residual. For 2007 and 2008 the X3 has a heavily subvented lease. It will never be worth residual.

Current residual on a 2 year /24,000mile lease is 76% of MSRP. You can buy an X3 for maybe $1,500 over invoice. A two year old X3 without CPO coverage is not worth 77-80+% of what you paid for it new.

Better idea:

It will be far more cost effective to get a trade assist from BMW. If BMW NA won't do that, look into your state's Lemon Law.
Thats a total BS comment. Why don't you ask BMW if they have a conscience? They designed the damn thing. The 1st software upgrade fixed the left hand stalling problem anyway.

Why the hell would I take a trade assist? That implies I want another BMW. Let me guess, they offer me a $2000 trade assist and just build it into the price anyway. We all know how these things work.

This Canada so things are different. The residual on a 39 mo lease is about 52%. I can break even in the next 6 mos. (I think).
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  #148  
Old 02-21-2008, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matti View Post
Thats a total BS comment. Why don't you ask BMW if they have a conscience?
Whoa.

If you are planning to disclose what is up with the car, you have my apology.


Are you going to do to an unsuspecting person exactly what BMW did to you? That is not something I could do with a clear conscience. Maybe that's why I don't sell cars for a living.


Quote:
Why the hell would I take a trade assist? That implies I want another BMW. Let me guess, they offer me a $2000 trade assist and just build it into the price anyway.
We all know how these things work.
A typical trade assist gets you into a new car with your current lease term and payment. At least it does in the US.
For example if you had 20 months to go at $450/month, you will get a new BMW with 20 month lease at $450 a month.


Quote:
This Canada so things are different. The residual on a 39 mo lease is about 52%. I can break even in the next 6 mos. (I think).

Sorry, I didn't realize you were not in the US. Does Canada have a Lemon Law?
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Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 02-21-2008 at 02:32 PM.
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  #149  
Old 02-21-2008, 04:48 PM
matti matti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew*Debbie View Post
Whoa.

If you are planning to disclose what is up with the car, you have my apology.


Are you going to do to an unsuspecting person exactly what BMW did to you? That is not something I could do with a clear conscience. Maybe that's why I don't sell cars for a living.
Unless you are offering to buy the vehicle I don't think you have an opinion here. Do you think BMW is going to crush the vehicle if they took it back? It will end up at auction and on another lot the next week. I guess it's buyer beware. The next owner can test drive it and see what they think. It's just annoying to drive now. BMW thinks I'm just "picky" after all. Let's just say I will be rigorously test driving the next vehicle which will NOT be a BMW.
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  #150  
Old 02-21-2008, 05:23 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matti View Post
Unless you are offering to buy the vehicle I don't think you have an opinion here. Do you think BMW is going to crush the vehicle if they took it back? It will end up at auction and on another lot the next week. I guess it's buyer beware. The next owner can test drive it and see what they think. It's just annoying to drive now. BMW thinks I'm just "picky" after all. Let's just say I will be rigorously test driving the next vehicle which will NOT be a BMW.

Matti as everyone knows I am no fan of BMWNA atm, but beating up on A/D is not the answer. He may have simply misunderstood your predicament because of your location.

On the other hand if you give it back to BMW they have a history on the car's service background and have the obligation to disclose it to a future buyer under "Due Diligence".

If they don't they are even more despicable than I can even credit to them under this situation.

Direct your energy towards BMWNA. Or in your case BMWCA. Report it to the Canadian equivalent of the Better Business Bureau, NHTSA, etc... talk to an attorney. I'm sure they already have on their part.

Personally I think BMWNA should publicly apologize and also buy the vehicles back at the fair market value of when the problem was first reported.

That will not happen or they would have done a recall by now.

In my opinion I find it extremely hard to believe that BMW did not know that this could happen and that it can('t) be fixed or every vehicle would(n't) work. Meaning this all boils down to money. In doing some simple math with just the people that are unhappy on this website you are talking roughly 3 million US dollars. Not to count all the folks that will come forward the minute this would hit the news.

I had a boss that used to say do you want justice or do you want it solved?

Let's get it solved then worry about justice.

Last edited by Evlengr; 02-21-2008 at 05:29 PM.
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