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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 02-20-2008, 07:44 PM
oilbelcher oilbelcher is offline
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Diesel Price Premium... warning to BMWUSA

I listened to a speech by the BMWUSA VP, speaking at the auto show. Among many things, he discussed the price premium for BMW diesels. He confirmed when they arrive in October, there will definitely be a price premium - common knowledge - all brands do this. Mercedes and VW typcially charge $1000 or $1500. I was thinking BMW will be around the $1500 range, maybe a few hundred more due to extra emissions controls above any recent 'normal' diesels. While he wouldn't let himself get pinned down on a price, he said they have to analyze and see what the market will bear, wanting to understand if they will be perceived as close counterpart to a similar displaced 3.0 gas engine (i.e. with premium seen above), or maybe compared to a more expensive V8 engine, due to its torque and probably fuel milage gains. If this were the marketing/price strategy, we would be looking at diesel vs gas engine price premiums of $4000 to $6000 over a 3.0 liter gas engine. This is unacceptable and the market will not accept diesel. I understand they are looking for every price increase in US Dollars where possible, as the USD is very weak now, but they have to be priced with local market condidtions in USD. As much as I want a BMW diesel again (recently had one while living in Europe), I will not pay more than $2000 premium, MAX, over the 3.0 liter gas engine. Any more than that and the economic payoff just won't be feasable, and the extra price will just anger loyal BMW fans, and diesel fans. I'll look to MB or VW/Audi upcoming diesels, or just settle on gas engine. BMWUSA, if you are reading, don't shoot yourself in the foot with this diesel intro by choosing a price premium more than roughly $1500-1800...
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:03 AM
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If you don't want to pay the premium, don't buy it. Plenty of people will as will myself. BMW has to charge to get the investment costs back. Each model has to have the engine certified by the EPA at about a $1,000,000.00 per car. Each model must also be crash tested again. Then you have marketing costs, etc. It will take at least 3000 cars to get even. This is why we in the states don't get a lot of the factory modded cars. It cost too much to recertify Vs. what the manufacturer can make back.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:12 AM
rh71 rh71 is offline
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Are we talking about the 3.0d or 3.0sd? $3-4k more for the 3.0sd is definitely acceptable, relatively speaking. But also keep in mind the 3.0sd US version will not have the same hp as the ones going overseas right now.
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2008, 01:28 PM
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Don't cross-post on multiple forums.

There's pros and cons to BMW NA's strategy on diesels. If they bring in truly fuel-efficient BMWs like a 320d or 120s, some Americans would love it for the fuel efficency. But at the same time, they risk watering down the BMW premium brand image, like Acura did with the RSX. Plus, Americans don't want a slow luxury car because it'd likely become the butt of bar jokes.

So BMW has opted to stick with the premium strategy of bringing in top-spec diesels in the hopes it won't ruin brand image. But as a result, fuel consumption isn't going to be as good as it could be, and the cars will cost more. They risk losing money because Americans may not want a diesel that costs more than a petrol model.

BMW NA is testing the waters with the second strategy.
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:30 PM
racefaith racefaith is offline
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Planning on X5d purchase as well

We are planning on grabbing the car 3-4 months after it arrives when supply loosens as well dealers realizing their going into the spring and the winter hype around here subsides like every year. I do believe the audience is very defined for this car and they will need to motivate people to purchase them past the initial segment of interested buyers.

Maybe they could partly cloak the premium increase by adding in one of the lesser cost options as part of the "base" D package - sort of a stepped approach like with the 5 series.
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:40 PM
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Why are folks buying diesel BMW's?

Fuel costs more.

Car costs more.

Mileage difference would take years to recoup added costs.

The only advantage I see is a blackened rear end from the tailpipe.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:15 PM
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Main diesel advantages:

1. Loads more torque. Ideal for commuters and those who cruise mildly on the freeway.

2. Lower fuel consumption. You go farther on a tank of gas. I don't know about diesel prices relative to premium petrol prices in other parts of the country, but here in VA, there's about a 20-30 cent difference, which isn't THAT much.

3. You can also beat the crap and accelerate like a madman on a diesel engine, and fuel consumption won't increase that much. While doing the same thing with a petrol engine kills gas mileage, a diesel will only sip a mild amount more. I mean after all, an X5 4.8i driven hard gets about........6 miles to the gallon. I would know.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:43 PM
MTech8 MTech8 is offline
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Whoa. Only 8 mpg when driven hard. Ouch.

Does anyone know if the diesel will be sold in California?

I read over on the MB forum that the ML 320 CDI isn't sold in CA.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:45 PM
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All the BMW diesels will be 50-state emissions complaint. I guess that's the reason our diesels lose around 20hp. (265hp from 286hp).

If you think 6 miles to the gallon is bad, the Ford GT gets less than 4 miles to the gallon around a track
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  #10  
Old 02-21-2008, 07:13 PM
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my X gets 6-7 when I push on the pedal..
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  #11  
Old 02-22-2008, 01:00 AM
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Yes, there comes a point when the economics no longer support a premium for the diesel -i.e., how long do you have to drive to recoup the cost premium? I am and have been patiently waiting for the diesel X5 but Mercedes Benz has diesels available NOW and at prices that donít gouge the customer: the price difference for the MB GL is actually LOWER for the diesel ($54,225) vs the 450 ($56,725). For the ML there is a $1,000 premium for the diesel over the ML350... if BMW insists on a huge premium the MB dealer is closer to my home if I decide I absolutely have to have a diesel.

On the other hand I currently drive a Land Cruiser that I love dearly except when visiting the pump. Sure I'd like a vehicle that gets better mileage and is friendlier to the environment but the LC is paid for and it's a Toyota (super reliable, durable and go anywhere). Not really willing to pay extra for the privilege of driving the X5 with the gawd-awful naming convention.

(BTW, my other car is a 540 that I also love immensely. I was very interested in the 535 wagon but since that was overpriced relative to the rest of the line and again, as my 540 is paid for, why bother paying a premium to upgrade when the value just isn't there?)

Please BMW - don't screw it up by getting greedy. I imagine I am not the only one who feels this way.
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
Main diesel advantages:

1. Loads more torque. Ideal for commuters and those who cruise mildly on the freeway.

2. Lower fuel consumption. You go farther on a tank of gas. I don't know about diesel prices relative to premium petrol prices in other parts of the country, but here in VA, there's about a 20-30 cent difference, which isn't THAT much.

3. You can also beat the crap and accelerate like a madman on a diesel engine, and fuel consumption won't increase that much. While doing the same thing with a petrol engine kills gas mileage, a diesel will only sip a mild amount more. I mean after all, an X5 4.8i driven hard gets about........6 miles to the gallon. I would know.
Thats correct. I will buy one for the technology and performance. A little better milage is just a bonus for me. If you can afford a decked out X5, fuel economy is not a primary concern. I spend 8k a year on fuel so a couple of % +/- in economy make no difference.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:03 AM
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I would be very surprised if BMW placed much a much different premium than M-B, VW/Audi on their diesels. I suspect that when we finally do get diesels the makers will be very competitive with each other. That is not to say of course that the dealers will do their utmost to pack the prices and get as much as they can (ADP stickers galore) at first. As far as affordability is concerned, at least for myself I still remember the green flags, odd and even days, and long gas lines of the 70's and don't want a car/truck that will not take me at least 400 highway miles on a tank of gas. It doesn't matter if you can afford it, it just matters if you can GET it.
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:01 PM
cross5x cross5x is offline
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What technology? I have had diesel cars in Asia since like 7 years ago. Is there a difference in the diesel in Asia and the US? I hate my diesel cars in Indonesia as they ride rougher and sounds louder.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:17 PM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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I have driven the new Mercedes diesel and it doesn't smell, or have any loud noises. From what the dealer told me, they test drove the BMW diesels in Chicago and they were quiet as well...

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Old 02-22-2008, 05:04 PM
cross5x cross5x is offline
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Yeah but acceleration in Diesel is always sacrificed, what does an increased torque do?
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:20 PM
oilbelcher oilbelcher is offline
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there is a very different audience, with different buying behavior on the 3 series and x5 forums. this is reason to post both places. and as you can see, the discussion is very different. it was worth it. next time I'll tailor the message to be a different post; sorry if I offended -- not my intention.

I realize some will pay large premiums to have the latest technology and to have a unique car. My family have been German diesel owners for 30 years. I also lived in Switzerland and Austria with diesels for a while. the typical diesel owner in the US however does not fit this customer type of latest & greatest, just high tech, and wanting to be different. the focus much more on efficiency, longevity, low service (only applies to old diesel now), and long driving range -- with added bonus of holding value better. although I realize BMW is trying to change that with this different marketing strategy of premium tech, nice performance (vs 3.0 gas, not 4.8 gas though) and a little bonus of slightly better fuel economy. I understand it, it is just risky. I applaud for being bold and leading though. I'm sure they will have some luck, but over time. As you can see on the 3 series forum, many don't understand diesel and why there are some loyal diesel fans.

I also fully realize a company's need to recover cost, and this plays into any sound business case. Of course this is why we don't see many product variations; thank you EPA and US and Calf Govt for hurting the consumer. I do not work for BMW, so I am not approaching from a COST perspective. I am referring to value as perceived by customer, not cost incurred by manufacturer. And a new major product/technology strategy like this does not have a one year break-even goal. that is not strategy, that is quick cost-recovery that could easily lose touch with market, and why many companies fail with new product introductions. The question is does a 3.0si diesel customer get same/similar value as a v8 gas engine. If this is a premium up-market strategy focusing mainly on performance, BMW won't convert this portion of the x5 market. If they are going after those who would have bought the 3.0 gas engine, or maybe consider a small value premium, maybe $2000 max, and maybe also considered other comparable brand SUVs but like the idea of some better MPG and driving range, I think the $2000 price strategy could work. Another way to validate the $1500 to 2000 premium (but no more) is to say that if/when the 3.0 turbo gas comes to x5, it will have this amount of premium over the current 3.0 non-turbo. Many think the 3.0sd diesel should be in-line with a twin-turbo gas engine. the twin turbo diesel is a little less performance than the twin-t gas engine, but this is offset by a little fuel effiency (which is again offset the other direction by diesel fuel being a little more expensive than premium gas).

they could try to mask and make a larger premium easier to swallow with extra standard features, but the historically average diesel customer will not be happy. if you study what type of configured cars people buy from MB, you will see that their diesel are mostly sold bare, with very little in options. I did much searching for E and M class diesels, and had trouble finding any with decent options, even search across the country. Last month I had a dealer search new inventory in every US dealer, including units on the water, and there were 0 ML320s with premium3 package. you can only customer order. it will be interesting if BMW uses this different premium/up-market diesel strategy; it is different than MB.

dealer will probably gouge with costs and less price reductions at first, but not as bad as M3. I'll likely wait a bit too after intro. let's just hope that competition like MB helps to keep prices in check. if premium is too large, I'll just settle on a different model entirely; maybe 535i or ML320 diesel.

lastly, not trying to come across negative -- just want to spur good discussion and hear from other potential diesel owners.
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Old 02-23-2008, 03:19 PM
racefaith racefaith is offline
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Why am I thinking of purchasing the diesel?? good question.

Lots to vet back and forth about efficiency gains vs. possible premium charged for the unit vs. the increasing price of diesel.

I guess I am looking forward to the additional torque, the better gas mileage and feeling slightly better about a reduced CO2 footprint from my vehicle.

But I in the end, I am purchasing it because I can.

The $1,500 premium really isn't going to hurt my discretionary spending nor make me trim back a night out a month.

Is it really worth debating this issue? If so, buying a BMW in general is not a good investment if your issues are efficiency and unit cost. You should be on the Toyota forum.

I'll admit, there probably is really no GREAT reason to buy this car. That said, if your just not into the car or what is has to offer fine.. but stop spending time trying to convince me to not buy it. Invest your time elsewhere in a more productive conversation that benefits you.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:38 PM
cross5x cross5x is offline
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Originally Posted by racefaith View Post
Why am I thinking of purchasing the diesel?? good question.

Lots to vet back and forth about efficiency gains vs. possible premium charged for the unit vs. the increasing price of diesel.

I guess I am looking forward to the additional torque, the better gas mileage and feeling slightly better about a reduced CO2 footprint from my vehicle.

But I in the end, I am purchasing it because I can.

The $1,500 premium really isn't going to hurt my discretionary spending nor make me trim back a night out a month.

Is it really worth debating this issue? If so, buying a BMW in general is not a good investment if your issues are efficiency and unit cost. You should be on the Toyota forum.

I'll admit, there probably is really no GREAT reason to buy this car. That said, if your just not into the car or what is has to offer fine.. but stop spending time trying to convince me to not buy it. Invest your time elsewhere in a more productive conversation that benefits you.
Lol, no one is trying to convince you not to buy it.

I just want to know why people would choose over diesel than gas, knowing gas gives more power.

Btw, What does a higher torque do?
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:58 PM
oilbelcher oilbelcher is offline
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Lol, no one is trying to convince you not to buy it.

I just want to know why people would choose over diesel than gas, knowing gas gives more power.

Btw, What does a higher torque do?
torque is very important. in certain driving conditions, a 200hp/400torque engine will feel twice as powerful as a 300hp/300torque engine.

I believe in laymans terms that torque is the actual 'power' an engine has at a given rpm. If you could turn an engine from off to on, 0 to 3000 rpms in an instant, torque is what throws you in the back of your seat. HP is actually an esoteric measurement of 'work' completed, or power over time or distance. this is a reason why HP rises steadily as RPMs rise; you are completing more 'work', or acomplishing more (because you have a certain amount of power that you feel, but if you can perform that same level of power at higher RPMs, you are acomplishing more work. In physics torque is a rotational force. It can be measured. HP is a calculation or estimation, revealing how much 'work' can be completed when you apply torque over distance (as RPMs rise, you have the potential to go faster, perform more work...). My understanding is that you can not put a measurement tool at the end of an engine shaft to measure HP. I think you have to actually measure torque, at a given RPM, to calculate/estimate HP.

think about those high-strung Japanese 4-banger engine that have 150 HP. At low RPMs the engine feels worthless. It has no torque, maybe 120 ft/lbs. To get any power, or get the feeling of acomplishing work, you must apply and perform that limited amount of torque (rotational force) at a very high RPM (maybe 5000+). In my mind, the 150 HP is very overrated and only usuable IF you can operate consistantly at 5000+ RPMs.

This is why the BMW twin-turbo 3.0L gas engine is so special, you have 300 HP, but much more important, you have 300 ft/lbs of torque at a VERY LOW RPM of 1500, that is pretty constant all the way up to 5000. In other words, you can be thrown back in your seat when you hit the accelerator at almost any RPM. In the Japanese engine in my example, you will only be thrown back in your seat gradually as you get to high RPMs.

This is also why diesels are so special. You have HUGE torque at low RPMs. but because you are at low RPMs most of the time, at the max RPMs are usually limited to be lower than a gas engine, the CALCULATED maximum HP is lower. in other words, the feeling of 'power' can be independent of HP. but to really feel power, you usually need high torque. in real world conditions, you cannot get above 5000 RPMs very often. Gas engines usually only get their big HP numbers at 5000+ because you are acomplishing more work, driving more distance simply because of RPMs, all with the same amount of 'power'. A diesel has a max torque typically of 5000 RPMs, but if you stay under that, you get huge feeling of power due to torque. At a given RPM, it just feels powerful.

Another perspective, try finding a HP and torque curves on a chart for a gas engine, and notice that you usually get that HP at high RPMs only. Now try looking at a lower RPM, maybe 300, and the HP can be quite low, and maybe even lower that what the diesel is. this new twin turbo diesel may only have ~220 HP with its relatively low RPM max limit, but if it really could go to 6500 RPMs, changing nothing else other than being able to go high RPMs safely, the HP would be higher because you are acomplishing more work.

if you drive on a racetrack or very high autobahn speeds, a gas engine is probably better and more flexible. If you do much low speed city driving (stoplight to stoplight) a diesel will feel extremely powerful as you are not really using high rpms.
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:49 PM
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I don't understand what torque "is". All I know is that there's more "seat-of-the-pants" acceleration feel. It also means the engine doesn't need to rev as high to move forward. Something like that. Spare me the engineer's explanation.

Similarly, I don't understand what's all the fuss with pickup trucks and tough guys that like to brag (insert hick accent here) "Ive got 550 pound-feet of torque and a Hemi!" . Yea, nice guys. your "trucks" also have about 17hp.
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:44 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Az, well it might be because they need the torque to pull the big boat and trailer combination, or dual horse rig, or haul bags of concrete, or .. well you get the picture. A truck is REALLY built to work, even though perhaps many of them seem mostly used as personal transportation. Still and all, I would venture an opinion that far more trucks are used for working than SUV/SAV's are used off road. That "hemi" also has a lot more than 17 hp too! Oh yes, there is an SUV with a hemi too. In its most potent form its the Jeep GC SRT8. About as fast as a Porsche Cayenne Turbo at half the cost. All hemis are not in trucks.
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:11 AM
cross5x cross5x is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilbelcher View Post
torque is very important. in certain driving conditions, a 200hp/400torque engine will feel twice as powerful as a 300hp/300torque engine.

I believe in laymans terms that torque is the actual 'power' an engine has at a given rpm. If you could turn an engine from off to on, 0 to 3000 rpms in an instant, torque is what throws you in the back of your seat. HP is actually an esoteric measurement of 'work' completed, or power over time or distance. this is a reason why HP rises steadily as RPMs rise; you are completing more 'work', or acomplishing more (because you have a certain amount of power that you feel, but if you can perform that same level of power at higher RPMs, you are acomplishing more work. In physics torque is a rotational force. It can be measured. HP is a calculation or estimation, revealing how much 'work' can be completed when you apply torque over distance (as RPMs rise, you have the potential to go faster, perform more work...). My understanding is that you can not put a measurement tool at the end of an engine shaft to measure HP. I think you have to actually measure torque, at a given RPM, to calculate/estimate HP.

think about those high-strung Japanese 4-banger engine that have 150 HP. At low RPMs the engine feels worthless. It has no torque, maybe 120 ft/lbs. To get any power, or get the feeling of acomplishing work, you must apply and perform that limited amount of torque (rotational force) at a very high RPM (maybe 5000+). In my mind, the 150 HP is very overrated and only usuable IF you can operate consistantly at 5000+ RPMs.

This is why the BMW twin-turbo 3.0L gas engine is so special, you have 300 HP, but much more important, you have 300 ft/lbs of torque at a VERY LOW RPM of 1500, that is pretty constant all the way up to 5000. In other words, you can be thrown back in your seat when you hit the accelerator at almost any RPM. In the Japanese engine in my example, you will only be thrown back in your seat gradually as you get to high RPMs.

This is also why diesels are so special. You have HUGE torque at low RPMs. but because you are at low RPMs most of the time, at the max RPMs are usually limited to be lower than a gas engine, the CALCULATED maximum HP is lower. in other words, the feeling of 'power' can be independent of HP. but to really feel power, you usually need high torque. in real world conditions, you cannot get above 5000 RPMs very often. Gas engines usually only get their big HP numbers at 5000+ because you are acomplishing more work, driving more distance simply because of RPMs, all with the same amount of 'power'. A diesel has a max torque typically of 5000 RPMs, but if you stay under that, you get huge feeling of power due to torque. At a given RPM, it just feels powerful.

Another perspective, try finding a HP and torque curves on a chart for a gas engine, and notice that you usually get that HP at high RPMs only. Now try looking at a lower RPM, maybe 300, and the HP can be quite low, and maybe even lower that what the diesel is. this new twin turbo diesel may only have ~220 HP with its relatively low RPM max limit, but if it really could go to 6500 RPMs, changing nothing else other than being able to go high RPMs safely, the HP would be higher because you are acomplishing more work.

if you drive on a racetrack or very high autobahn speeds, a gas engine is probably better and more flexible. If you do much low speed city driving (stoplight to stoplight) a diesel will feel extremely powerful as you are not really using high rpms.
Thanks for the explanation! Now I get it.

How much torque does the 4.8 has? The bmwusa site does not seem to work well with the macbook air I just got
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:18 AM
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Mein Auto: 2004 Infiniti FX35
This has been a very helpful and educational thread. I learned a lot about deisel and torque, thanks to this forum's members.

I am on the market for a new X5, and almost paid cash for a new 2008 4.8 V8. However, after reasonable research on this forum and others, I learned about the real world MPG's of the 4.8 and couldn't get myself to do it. Bad MPG's, means bad driving range... Big no no. My ideal X5 would have above 16-17 MPG's, and 0-60 in around 7 seconds. Neither the 3.0 nor the 4.8 give me what I want. Based on what I've heard so far, both the X5 3.0 sd and X5 35i could fit the bill. At first I had no intention of buying diesel but I have opened my mind to the idea due what I heard from those who drove diesels.....
I fully understand the premise of initial post of this thread posted by oilbelcher. Nevertheless, as a potential customer, I am comparing the diesel in reference to the 4.8 not the 3.0 and may be that is what BMW is counting on. But deep inside, I truly want the X5 35i.
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:37 AM
jcl10 jcl10 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2003 X5 3.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilbelcher View Post
I believe in laymans terms that torque is the actual 'power' an engine has at a given rpm. If you could turn an engine from off to on, 0 to 3000 rpms in an instant, torque is what throws you in the back of your seat. HP is actually an esoteric measurement of 'work' completed, or power over time or distance. this is a reason why HP rises steadily as RPMs rise; you are completing more 'work', or acomplishing more (because you have a certain amount of power that you feel, but if you can perform that same level of power at higher RPMs, you are acomplishing more work. In physics torque is a rotational force. It can be measured. HP is a calculation or estimation, revealing how much 'work' can be completed when you apply torque over distance (as RPMs rise, you have the potential to go faster, perform more work...). My understanding is that you can not put a measurement tool at the end of an engine shaft to measure HP. I think you have to actually measure torque, at a given RPM, to calculate/estimate HP.

think about those high-strung Japanese 4-banger engine that have 150 HP. At low RPMs the engine feels worthless. It has no torque, maybe 120 ft/lbs. To get any power, or get the feeling of acomplishing work, you must apply and perform that limited amount of torque (rotational force) at a very high RPM (maybe 5000+). In my mind, the 150 HP is very overrated and only usuable IF you can operate consistantly at 5000+ RPMs.

This is why the BMW twin-turbo 3.0L gas engine is so special, you have 300 HP, but much more important, you have 300 ft/lbs of torque at a VERY LOW RPM of 1500, that is pretty constant all the way up to 5000. In other words, you can be thrown back in your seat when you hit the accelerator at almost any RPM. In the Japanese engine in my example, you will only be thrown back in your seat gradually as you get to high RPMs.

This is also why diesels are so special. You have HUGE torque at low RPMs. but because you are at low RPMs most of the time, at the max RPMs are usually limited to be lower than a gas engine, the CALCULATED maximum HP is lower. in other words, the feeling of 'power' can be independent of HP. but to really feel power, you usually need high torque. in real world conditions, you cannot get above 5000 RPMs very often. Gas engines usually only get their big HP numbers at 5000+ because you are acomplishing more work, driving more distance simply because of RPMs, all with the same amount of 'power'. A diesel has a max torque typically of 5000 RPMs, but if you stay under that, you get huge feeling of power due to torque. At a given RPM, it just feels powerful.

Another perspective, try finding a HP and torque curves on a chart for a gas engine, and notice that you usually get that HP at high RPMs only. Now try looking at a lower RPM, maybe 300, and the HP can be quite low, and maybe even lower that what the diesel is. this new twin turbo diesel may only have ~220 HP with its relatively low RPM max limit, but if it really could go to 6500 RPMs, changing nothing else other than being able to go high RPMs safely, the HP would be higher because you are acomplishing more work.

if you drive on a racetrack or very high autobahn speeds, a gas engine is probably better and more flexible. If you do much low speed city driving (stoplight to stoplight) a diesel will feel extremely powerful as you are not really using high rpms.
There are a few different concepts being muddied here, IMO.

I agree with you that we 'feel' torque. However, you cannot dismiss hp. We feel torque because it produces a change, ie acceleration, and we can sense changes better than we can sense absolutes. However, torque at low rpm is not as valuable or the same as torque at high rpm (although it is convenient). In very simple terms, you will feel the acceleration, but still take longer to get to your destination, since you are going slower. That is because when you make the same torque at higher rpm, you can take advantage of gearing. Consider two engines, one diesel and one gasoline, making the same torque but at different rpms. Each driver floors it. They both accelerate relative to their torque curves. However, the gasoline car is out in front and gets there sooner, due to gearing.

You are instead considering two engines at the same (low) rpm, with the diesel engine making more torque. Yes, it will accelerate quicker at those low rpms. If you don't like shifting, it can be very handy. But unless it produces the same hp as the gasoline engine, it will be slower, since you will accelerate to something like half the rpm limit of the gas engine, and then you're done.

If we really wanted to get into this we should discuss torque rise, which is the number that causes you not to have to downshift as you slow down, pulling up a hill. It is increase in torque as the rpms drop, essentially.
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Last edited by jcl10; 02-24-2008 at 10:41 AM.
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