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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)

E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-29-2008, 10:51 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Brand new Motive Power Extractor does not work for E39 oil change

I followed your advice by ordering the "Motive Power Extractor" vacuum fluid extractor #1708; but it doesn't seem to do anything, no mater how many times I pump.

The instructions say just to clamp the hose and start pumping. But, I've pumped 50 times and nothing happens except a little bit of pressure builds up enough to bubble a bit into water in a glass when I open the clamp on the output hose.

I'm almost afraid to ask this question 'cuz the thing looks so simple; but I've now spent an hour on it without the needle on the gauge moving anywhere.

Can you guide me as to whether or not the brand new Motive Power Extractor is defective or if I'm just doing something wrong?

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  #2  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:02 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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How exactly does the power extractor build up vacuum?

How exactly does the Motive Power Extractor build up vacuum?

Instructions say to clamp the hose and start pumping

With hose clamped, during pumping, WHERE does the air get out?

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  #3  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:12 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Which direction is the one-way valve supposed to allow air to flow?

Taking the Motive pump mechanism out of the jar, it seems simple enough.

When I blow on tube that is tie wrapped to the chamber, the valve blocks the air flow; when I suck on the tube, the valve allows air to flow.

Is this how YOUR Motive power extractor valve works?


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  #4  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:45 AM
Raymond919 Raymond919 is offline
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I ordered a pump from another company and the pump mechanism did not work. I called and they sent me a new complete unit telling me to just keep the old one for parts. The new one worked fine except for the collapsing tube (below).

In the photo where the tube is marked showing the direction of flow, that end should be attached to the plastic tank. This is the end through which you sucked air. The other end of that tube should be in the dipstick hole. If you blow into the tube through that hole, you should not be able to blow air. There is a check valve in there creating a one-way flow system.

If you pump and no vacuum is created in the tank, the pump handle part is defective.
The photo doesn't show the other end of the tube. I assume the other end was placed in the dipstick hole.

I believe there should be no tube attached to the bottom of the pump/plunger mechanism.

One problem I had was that the tube which sucks the oil was too thin and would collapse due to the vacuum. I had to replace it with a tube I picked up at Home Depot. The replacement tube was thicker and did not collapse. Only cost a couple dollars.
It's a good system, don't give up. Once you get to the bottom of it, it'll work forever.
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  #5  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:06 PM
riro424 riro424 is offline
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Bluebee, first of all as a fellow 525i owner, I've found your posts to be very informative especially when accompanied by pics.

Secondly, as a former NorCal resident, I noticed that you used a wine glass to test the vacuum. Nice touch!

Finally, I had a brand new Mityvac unit that was replaced after determining that it was defective. When I got the replacement, my oil change philosophy was forever changed. Extraction rules!
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2008, 01:34 PM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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If the extractor is built like the brake fluid power bleeder you need to check a few things:

1) using a drop of dish washing liquid to a 1/4 cup of water. Apply the mixture to the to all seals. This includes any clamped, crimped or screwed on part to the container. You may have a leak somewhere. By applying the mixture you see if anything is being sucked in through seals.

2) The needle may be stuck on the dial. Check to see if the dial is tilted at all behind the glass or if the needle itself is bent at all hindering it from moving around the dial. When I got my power bleeder, the dial was tilted behind the glass and despite trying to tap the glass to get it flat, it wouldn't work. I called Motive and they promptly shipped a replacement dial which solved my issue.

While I realize you are talking about a extractor vs. a pressure bleeder, the principle is the same instead of pumping pressure INTO the tank the extractor PULLS pressure out of the tank for fluid to flow in.

Check those two things and see if that solves the problem with your Motive.
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  #7  
Old 03-29-2008, 01:39 PM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Taking the Motive pump mechanism out of the jar, it seems simple enough.

When I blow on tube that is tie wrapped to the chamber, the valve blocks the air flow; when I suck on the tube, the valve allows air to flow.

[B]Is this how YOUR Motive power extractor valve works?

The extractor and the pressure bleeder have the valves set up as EXACT opposites. The built in valve is to prevent air from flowing back depending on whether you are extracting fluid into the tank or pushing fluid out of the tank into the brake system.

As such using an extractor, you want a valve that opens upward when you pull up on the handle whereas with a power bleeder you want the valve opening inward when pushing down on the handle.

However, I am assuming you bought both the extractor AND bleeder. Unless you bought the extractor ONLY and will be using it to vacuum bleed your brakes instead of pressure bleeding it. In which case, you won't have the two to compare but follow my explanation of the flow and if it is not flowing that way, Motive may have assembled it with the WRONG valve and handle assembly. Call them and they should be able to send you the correct one.

Last edited by dvsgene; 03-29-2008 at 01:43 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-29-2008, 03:10 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
However, I am assuming you bought both the extractor AND bleeder.
I did order both a motive extractor and bleeder because that is what you guys suggested. Pretty much I do whatever you guys say as I don't know for myself.

The Motive black diamond pressure bleeder has not yet arrived so we're just talking about the extractor here.

As for the hoses, there are three hoses, two of which are inside the tank:
1. Goes from the oil dipstick into a nipple atop the tank
2. Attaches to the inside of that nipple and goes to the bottom of the tank
3. Attaches to the bottom of the pump and goes nowhere but has a one-way valve at the end

I think the way it's "supposed" to work is air is pumped out of the tank through the one-way valve and out the handle of the pump (I don't see any other way out of the tank but through the handle stem).

I think my problem is that Motive assembled the valve on backward.
It's glued in there tightly so I don't want to remove it and then void my warranty so that's why I ask.

If you blow on the end of your Motive pressure bleeder hose that is attached to the bottom of the pump assembly, which way does your air go?
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  #9  
Old 03-29-2008, 03:36 PM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Call Motive on Monday. 1.877.59.BRAKE

Explain to them what's happening and they will probably send you out a new handle with valve. they are in Oakland so a replacement for you should be received within a few days.

Admittedly, the Motives could have better quality control but once fixed, they work fine. Customer service was very good from my experience.

Last edited by dvsgene; 03-29-2008 at 03:41 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
In the photo where the tube is marked showing the direction of flow, that end should be attached to the plastic tank. This is the end through which you sucked air.
I don't think I was clear enough as there is no place to put that end that I sucked on into anything.

Does anyone have one of these Motive power extractors?

Can you tell me how this power extractor is supposed to work?
I assume ...
- You clamp the hose tightly & start pumping (how many times?)
- Air can't come in thru the clamped hose
- So air goes from the tank thru the one-way valve
- From that one-way valve, it goes into the pump chamber
- From the pump chamber, air goes outside, up the pump stem
- The gauge should then register a vacuum

For that to work, the valve should open when I blow into it and it should close when I suck on it (which is the opposite of the way it is set up today).

I just can't believe Motive put the valve on wrong (it's their job so they must know what they are doing), nor that they didn't test it (how hard would it be to test?) ... plus, it doesn't pressurize when I pump, so I must be doing something wrong.

Can you explain how the pump is supposed to work so I can debug?

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  #11  
Old 03-30-2008, 03:15 PM
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Does anyone have a Motive power extractor to test?

What is confusing is that if the valve were merely on backward, then the tank would pressurize instead of becoming a vacuum. But it does not pressurize (only a teeny tiny bit as evidenced by the bubbles in the wine glass).

Is the pump mechanism also different?

Does anyone have the Motive power extractor who can test the direction of their valve?


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  #12  
Old 03-30-2008, 03:25 PM
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Inside the tank there is no fitting for the valve

Someone had mentioned that they thought the valve should be attached to something INSIDE the tank but I doubt it only because there is NOTHING inside the tank to attach it to (perhaps the tank is defective?).

Based both on the expense of the unit and it's simplicity, I find it very hard to believe Motive would screw up on the assembly ... so that's why I'm scratching my head trying to figure this out for myself.

I will call Motive tomorrow; but I first want to make sure I understand this correctly.

Doesn't anyone have one of these to test the valve?


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  #13  
Old 03-31-2008, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Doesn't anyone have one of these to test the valve?
I really was excited about replacing the oil & transmission fluid this weekend using the new Motive Power Extractor, but, I guess I'll have to wait 'till next weekend (or the next after that, depending on when the working one arrives).

I called Motive in Gilroy who shipped it to me, the Motive 800 number (thanks), and the supplier on the east coast ... and left a message for each; hopefully they'll get back to me with a Motive Power Extractor that works out of the box!
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2008, 04:17 PM
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The original wholesaler recommended by bimmerfest called me back and so did Motive.

Motive will be sending me a new power extractor
and a form to send back the defective power extractor. When the new power extractor arrives (proabably next week), I can compare the two, side-by-side, to see what was the problem (I hate it when I can't figure out something simple!).

The good news is the Motive Black Diamond Pressure Bleeder should arrive this week along with a few more liters of ATE Super Blue (for some reason, the order for both the power extractor and the pressure bleeder was split up).

I sure hope the pressure bleeder works out of the box 'cuz I was planning on bleeding my new brakes this weekend and writing up the DIY.

Any brake-bleeding tips, let me know!
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2008, 05:43 PM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Yes, Motive is very good about fixing their defective products. IF only they can minimize that by testing them before shipping them.

Only one tip for bleeding: NEVER let the fluid run low in the tank or master cylinder or AIR will enter the system.

You don't want air entering the system as air compresses much more than brake fluid and you will have a spongy feeling afterwards and will need to bleed the system all over again. Take your time and watch the fluid.

Also, as I said somewhere else before NEVER get brake fluid on your paint or anything painted, it will dissolve paint in minutes!

Last edited by dvsgene; 03-31-2008 at 05:45 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2008, 07:48 PM
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mmm635 mmm635 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
The original wholesaler recommended by bimmerfest called me back and so did Motive.

Motive will be sending me a new power extractor
and a form to send back the defective power extractor. When the new power extractor arrives (proabably next week), I can compare the two, side-by-side, to see what was the problem (I hate it when I can't figure out something simple!).

The good news is the Motive Black Diamond Pressure Bleeder should arrive this week along with a few more liters of ATE Super Blue (for some reason, the order for both the power extractor and the pressure bleeder was split up).

I sure hope the pressure bleeder works out of the box 'cuz I was planning on bleeding my new brakes this weekend and writing up the DIY.

Any brake-bleeding tips, let me know!
I figured you were chomping at the bit to get this one figured out and would be much more satisfied figuring it out before the replacement arrives. So, I posted a PDF of the technical drawings for the Mityvac Fluid Extractor which works by the same principle. You have to use your imagination a little bit due the difference in design, but you will have a much better understanding from the pic than a vague description.
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2008, 08:48 AM
riro424 riro424 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I really was excited about replacing the oil & transmission fluid this weekend using the new Motive Power Extractor, but, I guess I'll have to wait 'till next weekend (or the next after that, depending on when the working one arrives).
If you have an automatic, here's a DIY fluid triple play that I wrote with details specific to a 2003 525i.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=260725
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  #18  
Old 04-01-2008, 09:01 AM
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I like the MightyVac design better than the Motive design

Looking only at the diagram, I think I like the MightyVac design much better than the Motive design for the pressure extractor.

For one, the MightyVac design doesn't contaminate the pump with the fluids as the pump appears to be external to the fluid tank whereas the Motive design immerses the pump into the fluid tank, ruining the chance of using the pump for multiple fluids unless you always keep the level below that of the pump.

Mighty Vac's pump-separation design should allow one pump to service multiple fluids at the same sitting, simply by swapping out the tanks. With Motive's design, you have to buy a second tool just to pump another fluid.

However, the MightyVac's better engineering probably comes at a cost.
What are the pro's and cons you find in the MightyVac design?
Cost? Maintenance? Usability?


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  #19  
Old 04-01-2008, 09:11 AM
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Why drop the transmission pan when you can extract the fluid from the top?

Quote:
If you have an automatic, here's a DIY fluid triple play
OMG! That DIY for replacing automatic transmission, power steering, and differential fluid was done fantastically!
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=260725

Simple. To the point. With annotated photos. Includes tools.

I'm going to try to pattern my writeups after yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One question ... why didn't you try to suction out the automatic transmission fluid instead of "dropping the pan"? Wasn't that the whole idea of the fluid extractor in the first place?

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Old 04-01-2008, 09:44 AM
riro424 riro424 is offline
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Thanks for the compliment. It was my duty to give back by writing a tidy DIY after learning from many others.

I got the Mityvac specifically for oil changes after getting a quote for $155 from the local dealer, and reading how other E39 DIYer's saved time/money.

For the initial ATF change, you'll want to drop the pan in order to get two additional quarts of the old fluid out that doesn't drain from the plug, clean the pan magnets, and remove the filter. This replaces only 6 of 9 quarts of ATF in our 525i so you will only be at ~67% of new fluid.

To reach ~85% of new ATF, you will need to do a second drain/refill and for this step, you could use the extractor. Since you'll be crawling under the car anyways, I'm not sure how much you gain by using the extractor versus draining from the plug.
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2008, 11:11 AM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
One question ... why didn't you try to suction out the automatic transmission fluid instead of "dropping the pan"? Wasn't that the whole idea of the fluid extractor in the first place?
You'll want to drop the pan for a few reasons:

1) In order to access and replace the filter you'll need to drop the pan.

2) You'll want to clean the pan magnets as they will have metal grit attached to it giving insight to the condition of your tranny.

3) Gives you the opportunity to replace the pan gasket.
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:35 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Motive pressure bleeder arrived yesterday!

Quote:
You'll want to drop the pan for a few reasons
Ok. I understand. I guess the fluid extractor is only good for the motor oil.

Oh well, that's what I got it for so I'm ok with that. I downloaded the UPS return-to-sender form and will ship the defective Motive power extractor back to Motive for replacement (you'd think for the amount of money this costs, they could spend a minute testing it before shipping it).

As for the Motive black diamond pressure bleeder, it arrived yesterday and it DOES work! Hooray! Here's what it looks like. It's just as simple as the pressure extractor only one third the size.

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  #23  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:56 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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The pressure bleeder is a glorified garden sprayer

I noticed the expensive pressure bleeder looks like my $25 OSH garden sprayer!



I'll betcha we could mod that $25 garden sprayer to turn it into a pressure bleeder in no time!

All it would need is a pressure gauge, see-through tubing, and a BMW master-cylinder cap modified by drilling and adding pipe threads.


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  #24  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:07 AM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Yes, you are correct. I did read somewhere (forgot where) where someone used a garden sprayer on clearance from Target, bought a pressure gauge and a replacement cap along with some tubing and built a DIY pressure bleeder. But given the cost of a gauge-$8-$10, a non clearance sprayer -$10-$15 and misc tubing, caps and hardware another $10. Total about $28-$35. Most people would just buy the non-Black Label Bleeder for about $45-$50 At least I did.

Last edited by dvsgene; 04-03-2008 at 08:13 AM.
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:40 AM
Raymond919 Raymond919 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Ok. I understand. I guess the fluid extractor is only good for the motor oil.

Oh well, that's what I got it for so I'm ok with that. I downloaded the UPS return-to-sender form and will ship the defective Motive power extractor back to Motive for replacement (you'd think for the amount of money this costs, they could spend a minute testing it before shipping it).

As for the Motive black diamond pressure bleeder, it arrived yesterday and it DOES work! Hooray! Here's what it looks like. It's just as simple as the pressure extractor only one third the size.

Is that big enough to hold all your engine oil?
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