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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #26  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:44 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
First, fitment: The TCK topmounts used a narrow mount which were quite thick as well. This forced the damper to be used without a tender spring if you wanted to get the car low enough. The narrow mounts also place non-uniform load to the strut towers. Mine were deformed after a couple trips around the ring and need to be carefully re-formed.
-Could this be due in part to the bumps on karousel coupled with stiff suspension for the rest of the track? In the US (CA anyway) we have a couple tracks that are bumpy, but nothing like karousel - and the bumps are more uniformly spread throughout the track so you set the suspension with the bumps in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
The KW fits perfectly inside the strut tower and doesn't require modified bolts to mount a strut brace. Load is more uniformly distributed.
-Sweet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
Second, size: As previously mentioned, TCK dampers are long and extension is significant forcing the use of softer spring rates with greater length, otherwise the springs become loose on the perches and flop around when the car goes airborne and making a hell of a noise when they don't rest back on the perches properly.
-I have not gone airborne, but I can see how this might be a problem with the TCKs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
KW uses a damper length and spring package custom designed for the dimensions of the car. I can run a 140 kg spring up front with a helper and at full extension there isn't and separation. Fitment is perfect. As for the rear spring, the perch is also the height adjuster and adjustment can be made without tools. A great design.
-That sounds awesome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
Third, damping ability: If I wanted to change bump or rebound, there was almost no noticeable effect from one adjustment to the next. I usually needed more than two clicks to notice any change. As soon as I went with a stiffer spring package in the TCK, the dampers quickly became oversprung and worthless.
-I haven't noticed this. I can sense changes of only one click, and the TCK rebound adjustments I find very noticeable - even 1/8 or a turn. I wonder if something else in our respective setups has had an effect on our perceptions of tuning changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
When I ordered my suspension, I told them the vehicle weight, desired wheel to fender height, and application use (street legal dedicated track). They provided me exactly what I wanted with recommended starting point settings for the dampers. I did 15 laps this day and I only changed rebound one click on each corner and bump 1 click. The rear stab was tightened and camber up front was increased 1/2 degree. It's now a sub 8 minute ring car and I would never have gotten there with TCK.
-Is the KW shock body narrower or thicker in diameter than the TCK Konis? I'm curious which one would allow for more wheel offset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
Thanks for the compliment. You must also understand a stock Z4M won't be able to turn a fast lap like this. I'm running nearly upgraded everything except for the engine. The only engine upgrades are software and headers.
-Truly a testament to how good the fundamentals of the Z4 M are, that with suspension and brake upgrades it can run sub-8sec with less than 350hp.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2009, 01:40 AM
toplad toplad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
Thanks for the compliment. You must also understand a stock Z4M won't be able to turn a fast lap like this. I'm running nearly upgraded everything except for the engine. The only engine upgrades are software and headers.

Yeah, mine's completely stock. It's a daily driver.

What's your Z4 like on the road?
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2009, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-Could this be due in part to the bumps on karousel coupled with stiff suspension for the rest of the track? In the US (CA anyway) we have a couple tracks that are bumpy, but nothing like karousel - and the bumps are more uniformly spread throughout the track so you set the suspension with the bumps in mind.
-The Karousel is certainly rough and might be a cause, but the bottom of the Fox-Pipe, the car takes the maximum G's. There is also Schwedenkreuz, Planzgarten I and II, etc... I was surprised how soft the TCK setup was. Most drivers here setup the car to be roughly 30% softer compared to tracks like Hockenheim, or other similarly flat tracks. My initial TCK setup was 450/500 and I ended with 600/700 and it was still too soft for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-I haven't noticed this. I can sense changes of only one click, and the TCK rebound adjustments I find very noticeable - even 1/8 or a turn. I wonder if something else in our respective setups has had an effect on our perceptions of tuning changes.
-Maybe so, or maybe it was so difficult to really find significant changes with the bumps and dips of the NR. The car was not driveable with the 450/500 setup on the ring and as I went stiffer, I believe I lost quite a bit of usefulness of the damping ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-Is the KW shock body narrower or thicker in diameter than the TCK Konis? I'm curious which one would allow for more wheel offset.
-The 2-way KWs are 33mm and the 3-way kits are 40mm. I am fairly certain the KWs are thicker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-Truly a testament to how good the fundamentals of the Z4 M are, that with suspension and brake upgrades it can run sub-8sec with less than 350hp.
-I am extremely pleased as well. At this point, aerodynamics are need to keep the car planted. With aerodynamic changes, more power is always a good thing to compensate for the added downforce.

-I have added the KW catalog which appears to be mostly current. The bottom line is if you want something from them with your corner weights, desired car wheel:fender dimensions and purpose (street, trackday, race) or something inbetween and their techs will give you what you need--first time!
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2009, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toplad View Post
Yeah, mine's completely stock. It's a daily driver.

What's your Z4 like on the road?
On German roads it's quite good. Having a six point harness keeps you in your seat where in an OEM seat and seat-belt would likely throw me around pretty good. I couldn't imagine to drive the car on roads like Dallas, TX. Last time I was there I was shocked at how bad they were.
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2009, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
Thanks! I am using a Sony HDR-CX100 with a Hamma suction cup glass mount.

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...tegory_Code=CM
Thanks for the info - we have a similar set up - I have the same camera, but I went with he RAM mount - Are you attaching the mount to the windshield?

The video quality is great even at speed - I have some great footage of Watkins Glen, I need to edit and post.
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  #31  
Old 07-16-2009, 07:30 AM
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Brilliant videos. Thank you very much for sharing both the modifications and the wonderful video. Almost no traffic for you to get around on the new one, and no scooby on fire!
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:47 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
-The Karousel is certainly rough and might be a cause, but the bottom of the Fox-Pipe, the car takes the maximum G's. There is also Schwedenkreuz, Planzgarten I and II, etc... I was surprised how soft the TCK setup was. Most drivers here setup the car to be roughly 30% softer compared to tracks like Hockenheim, or other similarly flat tracks. My initial TCK setup was 450/500 and I ended with 600/700 and it was still too soft for me.
-That's very interesting. I'm gonna have to come over to that side of the pond and see it first-hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
-Maybe so, or maybe it was so difficult to really find significant changes with the bumps and dips of the NR. The car was not driveable with the 450/500 setup on the ring and as I went stiffer, I believe I lost quite a bit of usefulness of the damping ability.
-That totally makes sense. The damping changes would be less effective with 40%+ more spring rate. I'm curious how the car would respond to more spring, but right now my 500/600 is about as stiff as I can imagine comfortably driving on US roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
-I am extremely pleased as well. At this point, aerodynamics are need to keep the car planted. With aerodynamic changes, more power is always a good thing to compensate for the added downforce.
-The splitter I'm running has made a noticeable (maybe even too much!) difference in my front end's grip - particularly as speeds increase. I don't have a rear downforce solution yet, because I don't want to run a wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
-I have added the KW catalog which appears to be mostly current. The bottom line is if you want something from them with your corner weights, desired car wheel:fender dimensions and purpose (street, trackday, race) or something inbetween and their techs will give you what you need--first time!
-VERY cool ordering method
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2009, 01:16 PM
deknight deknight is offline
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Russ, glad to hear you are enjoying your car again! Great vid thanks for sharing all the information. M Coupes Rule!
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Engineer Daddy Engineer Daddy is offline
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Great Vid Russ. I am bummed we never got a chance to hook up at the ring. I know the 2 days I spent at the ring on my stock set-up was the best euro I spent. Glad you got it back on the track and it seems better than ever. Now if you can only get Dammittt out there
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:29 PM
headparrot headparrot is offline
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Russ,

Awesome vid of the 'ring...were you going all out?

I think you could scrub some more time off...I wish I heard more tire squeal on your vid.
Like on every turn....

Sweet car!!!
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2009, 02:22 AM
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Russ,

Awesome vid of the 'ring...were you going all out?

I think you could scrub some more time off...I wish I heard more tire squeal on your vid.
Like on every turn....

Sweet car!!!
Thanks! No, this lap was not all out. I always hold some in reserve (10% for it being potentially catastrophic if you go off), plus the circuit was a little damp. This was the first lap of the day before changes were made (.5 degree more camber up front, +1 click of re-bound, stiffer rear stabilizer by one bolt hole and +1 click bump). We were purposely trying to make the car understeer which can be seen as many of the low speed apexes were missed. The car became even faster later in the day, but I didn't have my camera mounted.

And yes, that was a Z06 at galgenkopf being rapidly overtaken, but like me, his car was faster than he is a driver.

My car is now at the point it is much faster than me. I will just try to hone my skills before introducing anymore drastic changes. I was considering an ESS Supercharger, but if I do it, it will mean aerodynamics, and possibly bigger brakes.

The car is fast enough for now...
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
This was the first lap of the day before changes were made (.5 degree more camber up front, +1 click of re-bound, stiffer rear stabilizer by one bolt hole and +1 click bump).
How are you measuring camber in the pits between laps?

And what size/brand of stabilizers are you using front and rear?

That second video is def awesome ... saw it again last night and reminded me of the Ring video with the Z4MC (factory?) track car.

Thanks.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
How are you measuring camber in the pits between laps?

And what size/brand of stabilizers are you using front and rear?

That second video is def awesome ... saw it again last night and reminded me of the Ring video with the Z4MC (factory?) track car.

Thanks.
We did a race alignment using twine and a ruler. If you don't know how it's done, I can try to describe it in another thread if there isn't one already.

I am using Ground Control stabilizers modified by BMS before they went out of business. I would imagine any competent company could build a set. I'm not fully satisfied either stabilizer. I had to grind away some metal on the front of the car to be sure they didn't rub against the subframe. In the rear, you need to be cautious of the axle contacting the bar. Careful inspection after any changes is required to be sure there is no rubbing.

Thanks for the video compliment. I'm not sure what video you are referring to as a comparison. Would you be able to post a link?
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RussRamz View Post
I am using Ground Control stabilizers modified by BMS before they went out of business. I would imagine any competent company could build a set. I'm not fully satisfied either stabilizer. I had to grind away some metal on the front of the car to be sure they didn't rub against the subframe. In the rear, you need to be cautious of the axle contacting the bar. Careful inspection after any changes is required to be sure there is no rubbing.
?
Pal - he must have the firm version, since grinding of the front sub frame was required. I believe this to be what Palantirion has as well. I have the medium version which does not require grinding. Clearance is amazingly close in the rear between the drive axle and the sway bar - no rubbing thus far. These sway bars do make a fair amount of noise when driving over uneven surfaces.
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2009, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tnsbruce View Post
Pal - he must have the firm version, since grinding of the front sub frame was required. I believe this to be what Palantirion has as well. I have the medium version which does not require grinding. Clearance is amazingly close in the rear between the drive axle and the sway bar - no rubbing thus far. These sway bars do make a fair amount of noise when driving over uneven surfaces.
-My rear sway bar didn't contact at all when it was in the medium position. When I stiffened it one notch it touched just enough under full load that it rubbed off paint - but no more. I can't use the stiffest position, but that wouldn't be useful anyway on my car. I may move it back to the medium position to see if I can put the ESS power down sooner that way.
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  #41  
Old 07-18-2009, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer Daddy View Post
Great Vid Russ. I am bummed we never got a chance to hook up at the ring. I know the 2 days I spent at the ring on my stock set-up was the best euro I spent. Glad you got it back on the track and it seems better than ever. Now if you can only get Dammittt out there
I'm definitely down for a trip out there in August. I'd like to try and learn the track a bit before I get there, so I'm not figuring it out with cars all around me. I gotta pick a XBox 360 game with the ring and at least learn the turns a bit.
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  #42  
Old 09-22-2009, 11:21 PM
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Here is an updated catalog of racing suspensions from KW. You will notice the Z4M is listed and suspensions are offered in 2-way and 3-way race. Anyone out there interested in my 2-way race? I will most likely remove it and install the 3-way during late winter or early spring when I do some carbon bodywork installation.

Most current catalog: http://www.kwsuspension.de/pdf/kw_racing_catalog.pdf
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  #43  
Old 09-23-2009, 12:30 AM
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Price??
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  #44  
Old 09-23-2009, 06:26 AM
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That KW Racing catalog has some great reading material. And that 7-post test rig sounds awesome esp with the control system sitting on a seismic mass. I wonder if they have a race top mount that will work with the KW V3s? I will try and call KW NA and get some info ...

Have you broken any of your previous Ring times Russ?
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  #45  
Old 11-02-2009, 09:27 AM
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New full competition exhaust installed!

As I sit here in Southwest Asia, my car was recently fitted with a custom manufactured exhaust system with the help of Klaus Peter Becker at www.bmw-clubsport.com. My primary goal was weight reduction and an exhaust sound that meets the stringent TuV standards and noise level restrictions on many European race circuits. Although I haven't had the opportunity to hear it for myself, I am told it has a "wonderful sound" coupled with fine workmanship. Just looking at the photos, it would appear it's a top notch job. I am certainly excited to hear it and will provide video in the future with proper db measurements for those of you interested in a headers-back exhaust. It can be manufactured in stainless or titanium. I did stainless based on the poor euro-dollar exchange rate we all are experiencing these days. Enjoy the photos...
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2009, 02:06 PM
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RussRamz -

New exhaust looks nice - whose cats are used in this set up? Do you have the cat-less euro headers or is your car a US car that was taken to Germany?

Did you have to do any reprogramming of the ECU for this set-up?

Thanks,

tnsbruce
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:39 PM
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The setup looks very well thought out. The location of the post-cat O2 sensor appears to be on an L-shaped bung/spacer setup (an old school trick that seems to be hit and miss on newer cars) to trick the ECU into thinking the readouts are cleaner than they actually are. Is this true?
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:41 PM
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I am hoping this will compensate for our emissions dilemma when going with euro spec headers.
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  #49  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
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RussRamz -

New exhaust looks nice - whose cats are used in this set up? Do you have the cat-less euro headers or is your car a US car that was taken to Germany?

Did you have to do any reprogramming of the ECU for this set-up?

Thanks,

tnsbruce
I'm using cat-free Evosport headers, but the euro cats would yield similar results. The car has an aftermarket ECU tune minus the modified emissions programming. I was using 100 cell race cats previously, but still getting the SES light. I have been told the light has not come on yet, but more miles will determine if it does in fact return. If it does, I will install an ESS tune. The Kelleners-Sport tune I have on the car now definitely eliminated the upper RPM flat spot that I had in the stock form and yielded a nice gain. This exhaust with it's light weight may not yield any extra HP, but the weight reduction is a soild gain.

More to follow when I have the car in my hands...
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:43 PM
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S54=Living on the Edge
Location: New Jersey
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,486
Mein Auto: 2007 M Coupe, 2004 Audi T
Look forward to your feedback RussRamz.

tnsbruce and I were talking about the euro spec catless headers with the euro spec cat section which will hopefully allow relocating the O2 sensors downstream and be emissions compliant since the cats are OEM.
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