Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > General BMW

General BMW
Use this forum to talk about general BMW news/stories and to chat with fellow enthusiasts about the direction that BMW is going in for their cars and/or motorcycles!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-12-2003, 09:32 PM
Stuka Stuka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,676
Mein Auto: German
The wonder of DSC was DSC light comes on (and stays on?) out on the track?

OK, I am going to get into this DSC thing, because I believe very strongly that the DSC makes most people worse driver than they can be.

With regards to leaving DSC on the track, I still think you are flushing $$ down the toilet. Remember, just because the light is not on does not mean that DSC is NOT working. You know that pause when you are accelerating just a tad bit sooner than you should have coming out of a turn? The light is not on but trust me, DSC IS home. And it's busy saving your behind.

Without DSC, it'll be time to feed in some opposite lock.

So if you are going to pay $400 for Button Willow, $600 for Sears Point/CA Speedway, why not try to l-e-a-r-n the fact that gee, I guess gunning it too soon in a turn in a RWD car means the back end will come out.

It is unnatural and counter productive to your RWD hadling skills to ride with DSC on. A RWD car should and will oversteer if you apply throttle too soon in a turn, lift while you are fully committed in a turn (can we say, Willow Springs turn 8? ) That is the nature of the beast.

And in an M3, with DSC off, the car will go sideways even with modest throttle in 2nd (or 3rd when slippery), as Hack found out. Wouldn't you rather know how to handle it? Because, belive you me, DSC will not save you from oversteer 100% of the time. You know that famous line on Toadfly M3 board that gets repeated periodically "I turned off DSC, I dunno what happened. My car wrapped itself around a pole." Don't be that guy.

When DSC throws its hands up, do you know what to do? Wouldn't you rather that you know what to do?

Oversteer is not scary, the idea of relying on DSC for the driver's lack of skill is. And yes, I know I don't wear the yellow shirt, but in my opinion, RWD 101 should be mastering the art of controlling oversteer.

Oh, and I'll be happy to teach anyone who would like to learn how to drive sideways. Now that I have my car back. Just find me an empty parking lot, and I'll be more than happy to help you get out of your DSC crutch.

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 06-12-2003, 09:41 PM
The HACK's Avatar
The HACK The HACK is offline
Rest in peace, Coach
Location: People's Republic of United States
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,108
Mein Auto: '06 MZ4C, '09 WRX Wagon
Doode, give it up. Some people like to be "handy-capped" by DSC. This is a battle you will NEVER win Stuka.

Personally I drive with DSC off. It's my car. My wife drives with it on all the time. It's her car. Let the driver decide how they want to, in your own words, "waste" their money on the track.
__________________
Quote:
"Bench racing" about track times driven by professionals are like a bunch of nerds arguing which Princess Leia is hotter, the slave Leia or the no-bra jail-bait Leia. No matter how compelling your argument is, the plain and simple fact is, none of you will EVER get to hit that.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-12-2003, 10:05 PM
chazzy chazzy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cambridge, MA
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
Mein Auto: '01 M Coupe
Well, I mostly agree. DSC off for the track, off for the twisties, and on for everyday driving around town. DSC should be learned and utilized under controlled conditions. You're missing half the fun if you're not. Twisties are controlled, right?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-13-2003, 06:08 AM
Artslinger's Avatar
Artslinger Artslinger is offline
BMW + twisty road = fun
Location: Evanston
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,892
Mein Auto: Car
My last two cars have been front engine rear wheel drive cars (Mustang GT and Nissan 240). I believe it is essential that a BMW driver learn the feeling of the rear end starting to break loose, and how to catch the car.

I like to turn my DCS off on dry days and have some fun getting the tail out. You may need this skill someday even with the DSC turned on.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-13-2003, 06:10 AM
SpaceMonkey's Avatar
SpaceMonkey SpaceMonkey is offline
both feet in
Location: Home of the Superbowl XXXVI & XXXVIII Champions
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,649
Send a message via AIM to SpaceMonkey
Mein Auto: '02 ZJC
Quote:
Originally posted by Artslinger
My last two cars have been front engine rear wheel drive cars (Mustang GT and Nissan 240). I believe it is essential that a BMW driver learn the feeling of the rear end starting to break loose, and how to catch the car.

I like to turn my DCS off on dry days and have some fun getting the tail out. You may need this skill someday even with the DSC turned on.
Me too. My first car was a 1985 Firebird, and then I had a 1989 240sx.

I definitely agree about learning how to induce and control oversteer.
__________________

5sp, Sport, CWP, Xenon, Moonroof, ///M Steering Wheel, ///M Strut Brace, OEM Aluminum Pedals, Euro Storage Tray
VDO Gauges, GruppeM CAI, Shark Injector, UUC SwayBarbarians, UUC evo3 SSK & RK2, UUC TrannyMounts/Enforcers
Passport SR7 / ZR3 Radar, XM Satellite Radio, a/d/s sound, BBS RG-R 17x8 w/Bridgestone Potenza S-03 235/40ZR17
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-13-2003, 06:26 AM
Artslinger's Avatar
Artslinger Artslinger is offline
BMW + twisty road = fun
Location: Evanston
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,892
Mein Auto: Car
Inexperienced drivers need to be very careful until they get the feeling of how quickly the car can snap out and how not to over correct the slide, as over correcting is the cause of most spins. Most crashes are caused by a dumb assed driver driving way over their skill level. I have spun my cars a few times in 30 years of driving (never wrecked), and in all of the spins I was driving over the limits of the car or road conditions. Learn the limits.

Yes I was a dumb ass when I spun the car.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-13-2003, 06:49 AM
JonW's Avatar
JonW JonW is offline
blubb blubb blubb
Location: Indiana Corn Fields
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,130
Mein Auto: '01 325xi & '93 325is
I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough?

Another driver school this weekend. Yay!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-13-2003, 06:54 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Quote:
Originally posted by JonW
I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough?

Another driver school this weekend. Yay!
I've had it come out very slightly on a couple of occasions.

Lifting off the throttle is what you do when you understeer.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-13-2003, 07:06 AM
Artslinger's Avatar
Artslinger Artslinger is offline
BMW + twisty road = fun
Location: Evanston
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,892
Mein Auto: Car
Quote:
Originally posted by JonW
I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough?

Another driver school this weekend. Yay!


How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill).
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-13-2003, 07:15 AM
JonW's Avatar
JonW JonW is offline
blubb blubb blubb
Location: Indiana Corn Fields
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,130
Mein Auto: '01 325xi & '93 325is
Quote:
Originally posted by Artslinger
How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill).
I'd really like to know that answer to that question!

I suspect the AWD provides an advantage. My basis for this is that at my last driver school, I was able to pass pretty much everyone at some point- 330's, M coupes, E46 M3, Corvette, etc. And I've got a lowly 325xi. I think I had a little more experience than many of those drivers, but not all of them. So I don't think I can ascribe 100% of the difference to driver skill. But I don't know.

I'd love to have a track session where half I could run in my car and the other half in a regular 325i.
__________________

Last edited by JonW; 06-13-2003 at 07:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-13-2003, 07:16 AM
JonW's Avatar
JonW JonW is offline
blubb blubb blubb
Location: Indiana Corn Fields
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,130
Mein Auto: '01 325xi & '93 325is
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I've had it come out very slightly on a couple of occasions.
The only time I had it come out at the track was in the rain. And only a little. The SO3's really gave nice feedback as to when they were starting to loose grip in the wet.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd Lifting off the throttle is what you do when you understeer.
Especially with those stock Goodyear tires.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-13-2003, 07:41 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Quote:
Originally posted by Artslinger
How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill).
IMHO, it's a disadvantage. BUT, when you're a novice, that disadvantage can actually be a good thing. The xi is just unbelievably forgiving of driver error. You can take it right up to the limit and keep it there with ease. The tail is NOT going to go out on you... You just have to worry about moderate understeer. And even there, the car is pretty darned balanced.

When I was at Summit Point, my observation was that I could drive right at the limit constantly and consistently. I don't think many others in my group could. (That said, I had a massive power deficit and the track had HUGE straights, so not many people were willing to let me pass... I'd hold them up badly until the twisties.)
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-13-2003, 07:50 AM
JonW's Avatar
JonW JonW is offline
blubb blubb blubb
Location: Indiana Corn Fields
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,130
Mein Auto: '01 325xi & '93 325is
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
IMHO, it's a disadvantage. BUT, when you're a novice, that disadvantage can actually be a good thing. The xi is just unbelievably forgiving of driver error. You can take it right up to the limit and keep it there with ease. The tail is NOT going to go out on you... You just have to worry about moderate understeer. And even there, the car is pretty darned balanced.

When I was at Summit Point, my observation was that I could drive right at the limit constantly and consistently. I don't think many others in my group could. (That said, I had a massive power deficit and the track had HUGE straights, so not many people were willing to let me pass... I'd hold them up badly until the twisties.)
I'd consider myself a novice, so that may explain the observations I wrote, up above.

The driver school I'm going to this weekend is only my third one. I'm looking forward to it very much.



Like others here, I'm thinking about picking up an E30 325is for track use. If I do get one, that will give me a comparison on rear wheel drive versus AWD.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-13-2003, 08:41 AM
fkafka fkafka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: o
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 366
Mein Auto: '02 330xi
Question

What's the cause of trailing throttle oversteer? Is it just a weight transfer back to the front of the car when you get off the accelerator, or is there something else going on there, physics-wise?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-13-2003, 02:35 PM
Jeff_DML Jeff_DML is offline
doh!!!
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,185
Mein Auto: 08 E90 M3 sold->M2 comp
Quote:
Originally posted by fkafka
What's the cause of trailing throttle oversteer? Is it just a weight transfer back to the front of the car when you get off the accelerator, or is there something else going on there, physics-wise?
Sounds reasonable to me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey stuka, where did this rant come from? Was someone argueing that DSC should be on during track events? Tough argument IMHO

I figure if anyone left it on was because they didnt know it was on or what it is
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-13-2003, 05:20 PM
SpaceMonkey's Avatar
SpaceMonkey SpaceMonkey is offline
both feet in
Location: Home of the Superbowl XXXVI & XXXVIII Champions
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,649
Send a message via AIM to SpaceMonkey
Mein Auto: '02 ZJC
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_DML
Sounds reasonable to me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey stuka, where did this rant come from? Was someone argueing that DSC should be on during track events? Tough argument IMHO

I figure if anyone left it on was because they didnt know it was on or what it is
Yeah, I was doing a skid pad excercise this past weekend, purposely inducing oversteer to learn how it feels, and how to correct for it. I stalled a couple times after spinning out, and didn't (read forgot to) turn DSC back off right away.

Once I was wondering why I couldn't get the rear to kick out enough, and it turned out I had only shut off DSC half-way. It's VERY intrusive.
__________________

5sp, Sport, CWP, Xenon, Moonroof, ///M Steering Wheel, ///M Strut Brace, OEM Aluminum Pedals, Euro Storage Tray
VDO Gauges, GruppeM CAI, Shark Injector, UUC SwayBarbarians, UUC evo3 SSK & RK2, UUC TrannyMounts/Enforcers
Passport SR7 / ZR3 Radar, XM Satellite Radio, a/d/s sound, BBS RG-R 17x8 w/Bridgestone Potenza S-03 235/40ZR17
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-13-2003, 05:23 PM
Jeff_DML Jeff_DML is offline
doh!!!
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,185
Mein Auto: 08 E90 M3 sold->M2 comp
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
Yeah, I was doing a skid pad excercise this past weekend, purposely inducing oversteer to learn how it feels, and how to correct for it. I stalled a couple times after spinning out, and didn't (read forgot to) turn DSC back off right away.

Once I was wondering why I couldn't get the rear to kick out enough, and it turned out I had only shut off DSC half-way. It's VERY intrusive.
Half way off? Is that a option? For our wagon it is, brief press, Dsc off else hold down for 5 or so seconds turns of dsc and electronic lsd. I turn off both for auto-x/track
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-13-2003, 05:59 PM
SpaceMonkey's Avatar
SpaceMonkey SpaceMonkey is offline
both feet in
Location: Home of the Superbowl XXXVI & XXXVIII Champions
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,649
Send a message via AIM to SpaceMonkey
Mein Auto: '02 ZJC
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_DML
For our wagon it is, brief press, Dsc off else hold down for 5 or so seconds turns of dsc and electronic lsd. I turn off both for auto-x/track
That's what I meant. I only pressed it for 3 seconds or so, instead of holding it down for 5-6 seconds to turn both off.
__________________

5sp, Sport, CWP, Xenon, Moonroof, ///M Steering Wheel, ///M Strut Brace, OEM Aluminum Pedals, Euro Storage Tray
VDO Gauges, GruppeM CAI, Shark Injector, UUC SwayBarbarians, UUC evo3 SSK & RK2, UUC TrannyMounts/Enforcers
Passport SR7 / ZR3 Radar, XM Satellite Radio, a/d/s sound, BBS RG-R 17x8 w/Bridgestone Potenza S-03 235/40ZR17
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > General BMW
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms