Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > Z Series > E36 /7 Z3 (1996-2002)

E36 /7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 roadster and coupe talk with our gurus here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-16-2003, 03:45 PM
karlblomquist's Avatar
karlblomquist karlblomquist is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Ottawa ON Canada
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Mein Auto: 01 MCoupe,325iX, T&C Van
MZ3 S54 Sport mode and the Shark

In an e-mail exchange with a Turner rep I had I posed a few questions to about how the Shark would interact with an MZ3 S54 in Sport mode.

Here is some info from Jim Conforti re my questions. It may be of interest to some.

If I understand correctly reading this the throttle response of the Sport mode should now be the same as Normal mode. This is the only thing I find disappointing about the injector. Maintaining a very aggressive Sport mode option would have been useful imo because it leaves the choice to the driver to choose either the improved Normal mode or the ultra-sensitive Sport mode based on the driving situation. By overwriting the Sport mappings with the new improved Normal mappings the injector forces MZ3 owners into one constant mapping and removes some of the flexibility of the "driving dynamics switch".

Still, I have ordered one myself, and I am anxious to see which thottle mapping I prefer on the track - Sharked mapping, or stock Sport mapping. I'll use the "inject/uninject" function to try both at my next track session (after I've spent some time getting accustomed to Sharked/Normal mode). If I prefer stock/sport mode on the track I suppose I could use the injector for a nice street mode and un-inject for track weekends. I am expecting it to be very much a matter of personal taste as to which mode is preferred by each respective owner. However, not having experienced the improved Normal mode yet maybe it's so good that it's all we could want?

The italicized questions are mine, the responses are Jim's.

* Posted with permission from a Turner rep *


>So, in conclusion, what does Jim C. have to say about running Shark on MZ3 with Sport mode enabled?

Sport mode isn't enabled on this car from the factory.
Everyone ASSUMES that the DME is set up to properly run it, but the key word is ASSUME.

Not one "official" person I have spoken to "off the record" has any knowledge of this modification whatsoever.

I can tell you that the coding for the MZ3/Coupe is *much* different than the M3, and as I've said to certain people promoting this mod as one "authorized by BMW Canada".. I don't think it's a wise mod because you do not know what else it affects.


> * Should we see the same relative performance gains in both throttle maps ?
> * Will Sharked Sport mode on MZ3 ECU be "smoother" like M3 drivers are seeing?

You don't NEED the "sport mode" with the MZ3 software.
The whole reason I spent very close to TWO YEARS* refining the throttle mapping for the "non-sport mode" is that:

1) The MZ3's base/stock throttle response is HORRIBLE.

2) There was no "Sport Mode" switch on the MZ3.

Therefore I made the "normal mode" as perfect as can be, and made sure it was driveable in all conditions.

As a courtesy to Ron Stygar, I moved the same throttle control maps over to the "sport position", but didn't/cannot/will not/there isn't the time to check all the other functions that the "sport switch" (in reality the driving dynamics switch) messes with in the DME.

Like I said above.. this isn't something that the effects are known. Hopefully this helps allay your fears.. if you've installed this thing, either UN-install it, or DONT USE IT. It isn't necessary.

Jim C.
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 06-16-2003, 07:05 PM
alpina22's Avatar
alpina22 alpina22 is offline
Registered ABUSER!
Location: NYC
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 362
Mein Auto: 2001 M Coupe
Thanks for the input karlblomquist .
__________________
Alpina22
00=oo=00
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-17-2003, 09:16 AM
rlcanon's Avatar
rlcanon rlcanon is offline
Meth lab in basement; shh
Location: Austin, TX, y'all
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 204
Mein Auto: '02 M Coupe
Give me a break!

Thanks for the post Karl! I have a couple of observations, though.

Not one "official" person I have spoken to "off the record" has any knowledge of this modification whatsoever.

That's a shocker! Of course these are the same official persons who can't give a straight answer concerning the differences between the M3 S54 failures and the MZ3 S54 failures...

I don't think it's a wise mod because you do not know what else it affects.

Translation: "It's not a wise mod because it directly affects my ability to sell shark injectors for the S54 MZ3s!" Ha ha!

The whole reason I spent very close to TWO YEARS* refining the throttle mapping for the "non-sport mode" is that:

1) The MZ3's base/stock throttle response is HORRIBLE.

2) There was no "Sport Mode" switch on the MZ3.


1.) No body is arguing that the stock throttle response isn't crap, but I thought I heard he had supply problems from vendors that led to production delays. Besides, from what he was saying on the Corvette board he pretty much quit driving his M roadster. (Something to the effect that his wife told him "Just because you tune them doesn't mean you have to drive them!")

2.) Oh, but there -is- a sport mode switch on the S54 MZ3s! You just have to install it!

Therefore I made the "normal mode" as perfect as can be, and made sure it was driveable in all conditions.

Come on! Who isn't aware that any vehicle set-up is a series of compromises! "perfect as can be"? Get real... Conforti's credibility took a big hit with me when he trashed the living crap out of all things BMW on the Corvette board, and the comments here aren't doing a heck of a lot to restore any confidence!

I'll stick with my Sport Mode mod pending further information...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-17-2003, 10:10 AM
alpina22's Avatar
alpina22 alpina22 is offline
Registered ABUSER!
Location: NYC
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 362
Mein Auto: 2001 M Coupe
Quote:
I'll stick with my Sport Mode mod pending further information...
I'm with you on this.
__________________
Alpina22
00=oo=00
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2003, 10:43 AM
chazzy chazzy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cambridge, MA
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
Mein Auto: '01 M Coupe
Assuming that you're only talking about throttle response, I think the sport mode is an excellent alternative to any aftermarket software, be it Dinan, Conforti, or whomever else comes along. It's a cheap upgrade that only costs a few bucks and can be done pretty safely. Conforti is right in that the full effects aren't known, but I think most everyone is in full agreement that it's a pretty safe upgrade.

However, let's also consider that the sport mode has a reputation for being too sensitive. Many E46 M3 drivers don't use it after the novelty wears off because it's just too sharp. Forced between the wet sponge of the stock throttle response and the razor sharp sport mode, I'd definitely pick the sport mode. Conforti puts something in between. In fact, the throttle map on the E46 M3 has been noted is now much more usable in both the regular and sport modes with the Conforti software. In the past, Jim has put together software that improves drivability, not just power or rev limits. Is it the "perfect" throttle map? Well, probably not for everyone, but that's an opinion to which everyone is entitled.

What "further information" are you looking for? I'm hoping to actually try both and see how I like them.

In defense of Conforti, I don't think he "trashed the living crap out of all things BMW." You can read his comments yourself. He actually says in that thread that he misses his E36 and wishes he never sold it. He still drives his M Roadster plenty ("On the MZ3.. it's no Z06, but 0-60 in 4.5 and 13.0 qtrs isn't too shabby with the top down and the wind in your face."). He makes some generalizations about M3 drivers, but I can't say it's unfair. His big tirade is that BMW tuning and parts is very expensive, to which I think many people here can attest.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-17-2003, 11:37 AM
karlblomquist's Avatar
karlblomquist karlblomquist is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Ottawa ON Canada
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Mein Auto: 01 MCoupe,325iX, T&C Van
Quote:
Originally posted by chazzy
... In fact, the throttle map on the E46 M3 ... is now much more usable in both the regular and sport modes with the Conforti software. ...
This is a key comment. It appears he spent the time to provide two levels of throttle maps on the M3 with normal being a little more agressive and sport being a little smoothed out. That's great... for M3 owners.

For the MZ3 cars it appears he supplies only one throttle map and put it in both positions (normal and sport) in the DME. So, compared to the M3 owners, MZ3 owners lose the option to switch to an even more aggressive map when desired.

In any case, assuming the injector is not too much of a pain to use, and assuming I still prefer stock DME Sport mode senstivity, I may end up "uninjecting" for the track where I prefer a very sensitive throttle and then "re-injecting" for the street.

I don't doubt that the injector is as good as other Shark products (I have one of his chips in my 325). Some of us just can't help but be a little disappointed that we're losing some functionality if we want to gain the improvements of Sharking our S54 MZ3.

Cheers, Karl
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-17-2003, 11:53 AM
rlcanon's Avatar
rlcanon rlcanon is offline
Meth lab in basement; shh
Location: Austin, TX, y'all
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 204
Mein Auto: '02 M Coupe
Originally posted by chazzy:
In fact, the throttle map on the E46 M3 has been noted is now much more usable in both the regular and sport modes with the Conforti software.

Then I wonder why the dire warnings from JC about sport mode on the MZ3s? I suppose it's possible that there was some compelling technical reason for BMW not fully implimenting it on the MZ3s, but my bet is that it was a marketing decision based on not wanting a less expensive car in the line-up to upstage the M3 too overtly.

What "further information" are you looking for? I'm hoping to actually try both and see how I like them.

That's it! I'm waiting for more people to try both and see if anything like a concensus shakes out. I desperatley wanted to eliminate the mushy throttle, but a few more HP and a higher redline I don't need. If folks report significantly improved driveability and/or people with sport mode enabled start coming out to the garage and finding their engine has oozed off the motor mounts and onto the floor resembling semicongeled jello, then I might be compelled to shell out the money for the Conforti effort and disable sport mod as he suggests.

In defense of Conforti, I don't think he "trashed the living crap out of all things BMW."

I may have overstated; but maybe not by much! From the thread you mention:

I've had less problems with my Z06 and FWIW, my '02 Jeep GC
Overland, than with ANY of the BMW's I've owned.

Do you like to yakk on your cellphone while driving? Yes, M3.. No, Z06.

As my wife has reminded me: "You know sweetie, you dont
have to own them [BMWs] personally.. there isn't some law".. and she's a right smart lady for a young-un


At several points he is critical of the S54 motor:

The engines. The S54B32 6 cylinder is hand assembled
and is (way-overly) complicated.


I'm not all that thrilled with the S54 failures and BMWs response, but it's hard to fault the level of factory tune! It may be hard to add significant power compared to a larger displacement pushrod v8 desiggned in the first part of the last century, but for performance out of the box an S54 is hard to beat. So what if it takes VANOS to make it happen in a tractable manner?

There were some other sweeping condemnations of things BMW... Some of which I agree with, BTW:

BMW seems to be making every one of their cars into another
Lexus/Infiniti/Mercedes lately and I DON'T like it. I started tuning
BMW's not for money, but because I drove them and I LOVED them as much as you can love a car. They are losing their niche identity in pursuit of "sales" and "luxury".


One reason I like the M coupe is because it appears to be the last of the breed to empahsize sport over luxury...

BTW, in that thread he states, over 6 months ago, that:
Yes, the new Injector which does ALL BMW's 1996-2002 is due
out in December after some production delays when the fine
folks at Atmel couldn't seem to get us the parts


I don't really get "I'm really putting the big effort into this and won't release it before I have it perfect 'cause I love me some Beemer and want all the good people with the S54 to get my best work for their fine cars!"

I get something more along the lines of "I really like my 'vette and you'd have one too if you weren't such a cellphone yacking clueless poser. BTW, I sure hope my vendors come through so I can sell me some shark before I completely alienate anyone who might buy one!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-17-2003, 12:46 PM
chazzy chazzy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cambridge, MA
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
Mein Auto: '01 M Coupe
I dunno why the [_quote] function has so much spacing ... looks awful for quoting more than one thing. Bold tags do work better.

Then I wonder why the dire warnings from JC about sport mode on the MZ3s?

I think Jim is being overly cautious about it. While we don't know the full effects, it certainly walks, talks, and acts as expected.

I may have overstated; but maybe not by much!

Well, the only thing about the comments that Conforti made is that I've heard many similar comments from a lot of other BMW enthusiasts, particularly about cost and reliability. And the same cell-phone comparison between Z06 drivers vs. M3 drivers can be made with MC drivers vs. M3 drivers. I'm not sure if Jim needs to be held to a higher level of bad-mouthing BMW just because he's a tuner.

For the MZ3 cars it appears he supplies only one throttle map and put it in both positions (normal and sport) in the DME. So, compared to the M3 owners, MZ3 owners lose the option to switch to an even more aggressive map when desired.

I think this is correct, and it'll be interesting to compare the difference between the two. I have all the parts for the sport mode in hand. I have the Shark Injector coming today or tomorrow. I'll probably have to get started doing the sport mode modification first to see how it is ...

When Conforti noted that it was a courtesy for Ron Stygar, was the copying of the sport throttle map done on ALL injectors or just his?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-17-2003, 01:08 PM
rlcanon's Avatar
rlcanon rlcanon is offline
Meth lab in basement; shh
Location: Austin, TX, y'all
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 204
Mein Auto: '02 M Coupe
Originally posted by chazzy
I'm not sure if Jim needs to be held to a higher level of bad-mouthing BMW just because he's a tuner.

Ha ha! Point well taken! I imagine if I combined the various annoyances I've felt toward BMW from time to time and multiplied them a hundred fold, I'd have an inkling of the annoyance a prolific long-term BMW tuner has experienced!

(I'm mostly just bored at work and trying to kill time by composing mildly caustic yet amusing posts... )

In any case, I am happy with the sport mode mod, but I'm also very interested in people's experiences with the Conforti software. BTW, kudos to Conforti for making various redlines available. That's a nice customer-accommodating touch we'll never see from Dinan!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-17-2003, 01:13 PM
JST's Avatar
JST JST is offline
A sudden sense of liberty
Location: U of ///M
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,936
Mein Auto: 535xiT, Golf R, 987S
In the "Don't Defecate Where You Eat" column, Jim C's posts deserve a special place. I mean, the sense of it is Hey, I'm happy to take their money, but the cell-phone driving idiots who pilot M3s wouldn't know a performance car if it bit them on the ass.

Nice.


My favorite quote from that ridiculous thread is not from Conforti, though:

"The [M3] only has 262 lb-ft of torque at very high RPM, and the only reason it accelerates decently well is because of the OUTRAGEOUS gearing. With a 3.62 rear end and frist gear, the overall ratio for first is like 15.XX:1. This means you can only get to 35-38 mph at 8200 before you have to grab second. Translation - you will be shifting CONSTANTLY in this car and must rev to 6000 to keep up with traffic. The lack of torque also makes the car feel slower on acceleration because it is so smooth. The Z06 SLAMS you in your seat, but in the M3 there is almost no sensation except for in 1st gear.... Advantage: Z06"


I have to rev to 6K RPM to keep up with traffic.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > Z Series > E36 /7 Z3 (1996-2002)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms