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3 Series / 4 Series
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  #1  
Old 06-24-2003, 09:58 PM
hayasa hayasa is offline
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Unhappy ZHP vs. M3 questions

Hello all. Been a lurker for a while, finally registered. Here is my issue: I was almost dead-set on getting an M3, but due to some financial issues and some M3 reliability questions, I'm thinking a 330 Perf package is the way to go. My questions (more to ZHP owners):

1. I drove the M3 and fell in love with the power. Will the 330 ZHP give me *any* of that feeling of acceleration.

2. Anyone dynoed their ZHP? Taken it to the track yet? 1/4mi? Any stats?

3. If I wanted to mod my way into an M3-lite, will the common upgrades be compatible (intake, pullies, etc.) Anything more to do or pretty maxed out?

4. Any guesses how it will handle in the snow, or will I need snow-tires?

5. Alacantra (sp?) - will it be durable, especially on the wheel?

6. Since it is a 2003 model, when will be the last time I will be able to order one?

Thanks in advance.

--AEM
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2003, 10:47 PM
330iGT 330iGT is offline
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Re: ZHP vs. M3 questions

Quote:
Originally posted by hayasa
Hello all. Been a lurker for a while, finally registered. Here is my issue: I was almost dead-set on getting an M3, but due to some financial issues and some M3 reliability questions, I'm thinking a 330 Perf package is the way to go. My questions (more to ZHP owners):

1. I drove the M3 and fell in love with the power. Will the 330 ZHP give me *any* of that feeling of acceleration.

2. Anyone dynoed their ZHP? Taken it to the track yet? 1/4mi? Any stats?

3. If I wanted to mod my way into an M3-lite, will the common upgrades be compatible (intake, pullies, etc.) Anything more to do or pretty maxed out?

4. Any guesses how it will handle in the snow, or will I need snow-tires?

5. Alacantra (sp?) - will it be durable, especially on the wheel?

6. Since it is a 2003 model, when will be the last time I will be able to order one?

Thanks in advance.

--AEM
Havent driven a ZHP, but a 330 is not slow per se, but it doesn't have that rush of an m3.
2. N/a
3. Bolt on mods don't add much. You need cams/headers/exahaust/intake/ECU to see a good difference. And even that won't let you hang with m3's.
4. You need snow tires/all-seaosns for light snow.
5. It's supposed to last for a long a long time.
6. No word.

All in all, if you can afford it, get the m3. It's very reliable, now, and you won't be disspointed.
  #3  
Old 06-25-2003, 07:53 AM
m330 m330 is offline
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Buy a ZHP, bolt on a supercharger for $6k and you'll be hanging with the M3. Check out http://www.esstuning.com/ for more info on the supercharger.

Also, check out http://www.my330i.com . Todd from my330i bolted on the ESS supercharger on his 2001 330i (non ZHP) and he's pumping some serious HP out of that 3.0 liter engine.
  #4  
Old 06-25-2003, 07:57 AM
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JST JST is offline
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The ZHP feels pretty strong down low, but starts to get a bit breathless above 5000 RPM. The M3, on the other hand, feels stronger down low and pulls and pulls and pulls from 5000-8000 RPM. My best advice for someone considering any 330 is not to drive an M3 too much. The 330 is plenty fast by any reasonable standard, but it's nowhere near as quick as the M3.
  #5  
Old 06-25-2003, 10:24 AM
eluder eluder is offline
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Let's not forget, these are completely different cars. ZHP for 4-doors, M for 2 doors.

I was under the debate of M3 vs ZHP for quite a while, sometimes even today. But in the end I chose the ZHP. It's more rare, which I like, especially around here. I also really wanted a 4-door car. Plus, now that I have them, I love the Alcantara components and the cube trim. I'm glad I got what I did. As with any car, you get accustomed to the HP it produces, and over time, it may feel like less, it's just you adapting though. If I had gotten an M, I wouldn't have had enough either. You will always want more, always.

I also realized that I didn't need a rocket, where would I use all of the power? I can't even use my ZHP to it's potential around here, so why bother with the hiked up insurance costs and monthly payments. Not worth it in my opinion. In my mind, the only major thing I am getting is more HP, and like I said, it's never enough. The suspension can be obtained, even better versions, as with the leather, seats...pretty much anything.

In the end, I would be honored to have either. I chose the ZHP because it's a better car...for me. Had I wanted a coupe, it would have been an M3 in a heartbeat, I love them.

Last edited by eluder; 06-25-2003 at 10:29 AM.
  #6  
Old 06-25-2003, 11:59 AM
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GregD GregD is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JST
The ZHP feels pretty strong down low, but starts to get a bit breathless above 5000 RPM.

My ZHP doesn't feel breathless at all above 5000 RPM. If anything, it feels a little stronger above 4500 RPM, and pulls with no noticeable letdown until the rev limiter kicks in at about 6900-7000 RPM.

That said, an M3 is much faster, a second or more to 60, and even more in the quarter mile. A ZHP is a quick car, an M3 is a fast car.
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  #7  
Old 06-25-2003, 12:39 PM
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JST JST is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GregD

My ZHP doesn't feel breathless at all above 5000 RPM. If anything, it feels a little stronger above 4500 RPM, and pulls with no noticeable letdown until the rev limiter kicks in at about 6900-7000 RPM.

That said, an M3 is much faster, a second or more to 60, and even more in the quarter mile. A ZHP is a quick car, an M3 is a fast car.
It's all in your frame of reference. Four months ago, I wouldn't have identified any problem with the ZHP engine. Compared it to the new M3, though (as the poster asked about), the top end is just not there. The engines are much more closely matched down low.
  #8  
Old 06-25-2003, 02:42 PM
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GregD GregD is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JST
It's all in your frame of reference. Four months ago, I wouldn't have identified any problem with the ZHP engine. Compared it to the new M3, though (as the poster asked about), the top end is just not there. The engines are much more closely matched down low.
My concern was with referring to a ZHP as being "breathless" above 5000 RPM. I think when you say that, most people think of an old American V8 station wagon engine which would be VERY misleading.

A ZHP is probably in the top 10% of all cars being produced today as far as top end power. An M3 is in the top 1 or 2 percent.

If I drove a BMW/Williams formula 1 car, I think that from my "frame of reference". an M3 would be woefully lacking in top end power.
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2003, 02:49 PM
Fuzzypuppy Fuzzypuppy is offline
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2003, 03:06 PM
Fuzzypuppy Fuzzypuppy is offline
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As Homer Simpson would say:

:repost:

DOH! Reposted... can I just say I hate the "Back" button?

Last edited by Fuzzypuppy; 06-25-2003 at 03:09 PM.
  #11  
Old 06-26-2003, 06:12 PM
eksath eksath is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GregD
.........
A ZHP is probably in the top 10% of all cars being produced today as far as top end power.

............
what's your evidence on that statement?...
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2003, 06:20 PM
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elbert elbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eksath
what's your evidence on that statement?...
Yeah, considering a Honda Accord V6 puts out 240hp, 5 more than the ZHP...
  #13  
Old 06-26-2003, 06:27 PM
FireFly FireFly is offline
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no brainer: M3 all the way
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  #14  
Old 06-26-2003, 06:41 PM
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missing23 missing23 is offline
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I think it could come down to whether you want a coupe or a sedan...the highest performance 3 series coupe is the M3 and the highest performance 3 series sedan is the ZHP...if I didn't need/want 4 doors an M3 would have been my choice.

If you don't care either way about coupe/sedan and want the highest 3 series performance (and can afford it) get the M3.
  #15  
Old 06-26-2003, 08:52 PM
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GregD GregD is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eksath
quote:Originally posted by GregD
.........
A ZHP is probably in the top 10% of all cars being produced today as far as top end power.

............
what's your evidence on that statement?...
It's just a subjective observation having driven a pretty good cross section of the competition and a variety of other cars. Newer cars that I've driven within the last year or two include: G35, IS300, Jag X, C320, Mazda 6s, A4 3.0, '03 SVT Cobra, WRX, E36 M3, SC430, Vette Z06, X5 4.6is, Accord V6, and SLK320. There's probably a few others I don't remember right now, but I think that's enough.

The only cars that I've ever driven that had significantly better high end power than a 330i ZHP are: NSX, Integra GS-R, E46 M3, Miura S, and a Ferarri 355. Obviously, there are other cars that I haven't driven of which this would also be true, but the point is that these are all relatively extreme engines available in only a very small number of vehicles.

Quote:
Yeah, considering a Honda Accord V6 puts out 240hp, 5 more than the ZHP..
I've driven a 2003 Accord with the V6. It's a good running engine, but it definitely doesn't pull as well after 5000 RPM as the ZHP's engine. As far as the 240hp being more than 235hp, I thought we were discussing the WAY the engines ran, not just the max horsepower number. There are dozens of cars and trucks that produce more than 235hp today, but relatively few of those engines pull as well to higher RPMs as a ZHP.
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  #16  
Old 07-03-2003, 11:14 AM
andy_thomas andy_thomas is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by elbert
Yeah, considering a Honda Accord V6 puts out 240hp, 5 more than the ZHP...
...and that Accord V6 is also in the top 5%. I guess it depends on your frame of reference - which market or markets, by volume, cost or overall revenue...

Put the 240 bhp Accord next to the 330iPP. Run them both flat out to 140 mph. Which gets there first? It can't possibly be the 330iPP - it has less power. If it does, then it must be, I don't know, an optical illusion .
  #17  
Old 07-03-2003, 11:47 AM
madplaye2 madplaye2 is offline
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What the heck is a ZHP ??????? Am i lost or something or is this some kind of modified 3 series not found in the US, someone please fill me in. THanks
  #18  
Old 07-03-2003, 11:55 AM
madplaye2 madplaye2 is offline
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I C thanks for filling me in.
  #19  
Old 07-03-2003, 12:04 PM
hythe hythe is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GregD
It's just a subjective observation having driven a pretty good cross section of the competition and a variety of other cars. Newer cars that I've driven within the last year or two include: G35, IS300, Jag X, C320, Mazda 6s, A4 3.0, '03 SVT Cobra, WRX, E36 M3, SC430, Vette Z06, X5 4.6is, Accord V6, and SLK320. There's probably a few others I don't remember right now, but I think that's enough.

The only cars that I've ever driven that had significantly better high end power than a 330i ZHP are: NSX, Integra GS-R, E46 M3, Miura S, and a Ferarri 355.
Slightly surprised that the X5 4.6is didn't make the shortlist - I have the same engine (basically) in my E36 and it pulls very hard at the top end... 'course, the lighter bodyshell helps, plus it seems to have a very light flywheel.

Supercharged 330s seem to be all the rage over here in Europe these days - you can order the AC Schnitzer package direct from dealers
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2003, 02:38 PM
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GregD GregD is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by hythe
Slightly surprised that the X5 4.6is didn't make the shortlist - I have the same engine (basically) in my E36 and it pulls very hard at the top end... 'course, the lighter bodyshell helps, plus it seems to have a very light flywheel.

Supercharged 330s seem to be all the rage over here in Europe these days - you can order the AC Schnitzer package direct from dealers
I'd say that the X5 4.6is pulls almost the same at higher RPMs as the ZHP. It actually feels like a little less but I think that's because of the automatic transmission. In any case, it's very close.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2003, 03:42 PM
Evanzhp Evanzhp is offline
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The M3 is the faster car period, and it should be for all the effort spent on it's engine development But it is not all engine.

First gear torque multiplication on the M3 is 14.90 when corrected for the 2.7% difference in tire height. The ZHP has 13.35 first gear torque multiplication(corrected). That is more than 10% stronger gearing than the ZHP. You can defenitely feel a + 10%(10.37%) difference.

The second gesr difference even favors the M3 more. Second gear torque multiplication is 13.9% stronger in the M3 than the ZHP( ZHP=7.675 vs M3=8.911 corrected).

Ask any 325 or 330 owner what happened to their stick car when they added an automatic rear gear. The car comes alive. Why did BMW increase the ZHP by 4.6 % over the standard 330. It works.

The engine and much stronger gearing make the M3 fast. I think the ZHP better suits my needs so I am getting it. I do not have to go literally as fast to have as much fun as I want.

I am considering though, when I get my ZHP, to put a set of 3.38 gears out of an automatic car. It will give the same revs at highway speed as a standard 330i with the 2.93 gears and improve first gear to an almost as strong as the M3 14.71 torque multiplication. Could be fun!
  #22  
Old 07-03-2003, 05:40 PM
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GregD GregD is offline
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How about a complete differential with a Torsen LSD and your choice of gears for $1595. Check out Rennsport, the Technik tab near the bottom.

http://www.renn-sport.net/BMW/bmw_engine.htm

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  #23  
Old 07-03-2003, 11:23 PM
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bavarian19 bavarian19 is offline
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i would have thought that the 4d vs 2dr issue would have answered that question for you already.... if its not an issue... consider that your paying close to 10g's more for a 2dr, and a few more horses... while im in no price range for an m3, i would think that laying down the extra cash would have been an issue... yes you get more power to an m3, from the sounds of zhp owners, the handling in the curves are handled much better by the zhp... so i guess its up to your standards as to what you want out of your car... if you want flat out speed, the m3 seems like the better choice... but if you want an overall handling car, i would say the zhp is better... and remember that the m3 was put head to head with the new s4 on a track competition... and the s4 had a better track time...


if it were up to me (which it isnt), i would be more for a zhp... but to each his own...
  #24  
Old 07-04-2003, 05:11 PM
art330ci art330ci is offline
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I cant understand how you can compare an M3 witn a 330ci!!?? The first one has 110cv more!!!!!
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