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E89 Z4 (2009 - current)

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  #1  
Old 12-20-2008, 04:12 PM
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starting at $38,900?

Are we all in agreement that a Z4 3.0L naturally aspirated will start under $40k in the states? This is a really attractive looking car. I think it looks like an SL550 in the press photos. I'm going to have to do something brilliant at work between now and when it comes out so that I don't feel bad buying it during a recession!
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
Are we all in agreement that a Z4 3.0L naturally aspirated will start under $40k in the states? This is a really attractive looking car. I think it looks like an SL550 in the press photos. I'm going to have to do something brilliant at work between now and when it comes out so that I don't feel bad buying it during a recession!
I hope it starts unerd $40k, but many are guessing a 14% increaee in price (based off UK and German increases). That would mean the Z4 sDrive30i would start around $41,838 and the Z4 sDrive35i at $48,678. This would then be more in line with the boxster and slk.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2008, 12:23 PM
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14% price increase into a near depression? I could see a $1000-$2000 increase at most, if any, from the current $36,700 MSRP. Psychologically, it'll be hard for them to posit a number over $40k.

It's not like their hand is forced. Steel, platinum, palladium, and aluminum prices are down about 70% off of their high. And for now, the dollar isn't complete trash.

But I guess you gotta add in a bit for the hard top roof and automatic action, which were optional before.

Last edited by westwest888; 12-21-2008 at 12:30 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2008, 03:31 PM
Stoky Stoky is offline
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
14% price increase into a near depression? I could see a $1000-$2000 increase at most, if any, from the current $36,700 MSRP. Psychologically, it'll be hard for them to posit a number over $40k.

It's not like their hand is forced. Steel, platinum, palladium, and aluminum prices are down about 70% off of their high. And for now, the dollar isn't complete trash.

But I guess you gotta add in a bit for the hard top roof and automatic action, which were optional before.
I agree with everything you are saying, but the Europe is in a near depression, and it went up 14%. You have to remember that this car is bigger in size, has more powerful engines to start with, more luxurious, and has a holding hardtop. Look at how high they are pricing a 3 series convertable to start. I hope they don't raise the price, because they might price me out of the car. But, no way this car starts below $40k.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2008, 09:09 PM
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Eh if they base it over 40k, then when you add in automatic and premium package for the suckers it'll be like 50k out the door for the 255hp model. Not sure if that would sell unless you give everyone 0% financing.
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2008, 11:35 PM
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The talk of the 14% price increase is not an apples to apples comparison. It compares the current 3.0si version to the coming sDrive 35i 3.0 twin turbo version. Comparing the current 3.0si version to the coming sDrive 30i 3.0 normally aspirated version (same as the current engine) the price is virtually unchanged for the German market, only a 650 Euro increase -

BMW Z4 sDrive 23i (204 HP) = €35,900
*BMW Z4 sDrive 30i (258 HP) = €42,900*
BMW Z4 sDrive 35i (306 HP) = €47,450


BMW E85 Z4 2.0i (150HP= = €29,900
BMW E85 Z4 2.5i (177HP) = €32,900
BMW E85 Z4 2.5si (218HP) = €35,900
*BMW E85 Z4 3.0si (265HP) = €42,250*

Here's a pricing discussion from ZPost - http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193326 , where one poster posits the starting price for the sDrive 35i 3.0 twin turbo version would be around $45k - $46k.

Based on the German market increase on the sDrive 30i it seems the price here might not increase much. But, of course, that still puts it over $42k.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 12-21-2008 at 11:47 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2008, 11:01 AM
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Boxster is $46k MSRP, Boxster S $55k for the new 255 hp and 310 hp models weighing 2950 pounds. I consider these cars a league above.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2008, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
Boxster is $46k MSRP, Boxster S $55k for the new 255 hp and 310 hp models weighing 2950 pounds. I consider these cars a league above.
How can you say the Boxster is in its own league? I am not disagreeing with you, but no one has driven the new Z4 to really compare it. I wonder if BMW is thinking its a league above.

What about the SLK, is that in a league above too?
The SLK300 at 228HP starts at $45,825 and the SLK350 with 300HP starts at $50,825. I would probably think that the new Z4 will compare closer to the SLK then the Boxster. Because you are right the Boxster may be a better performance car.

Also look how much the 3 series hardtop convertibles cost. The 328 is $44,325 and the 335 is $50,325. When they added hardtops and up sized the car (like the new Z), they added I think close to $7k to the base price.

I hope they keep it below $40k. I think they would be smart to keep it below $40k, because this would get more people to buy the car. Why buy an SLK for $5-7 more when you can get a new Z. You are right and I agree they would probably sell more cars if its under $40k. But, I think BMW will move the price up to MB. We will just have to wait and see.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2008, 07:27 PM
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The new Z4 seems like it's architecturally the same as the outgoing model: long hood, front engine, rwd, 3400 pounds, driver up against rear axle. Of course it gets the newest engines and suspension design.

The Boxster/Cayman remains a purer motorsport car, staying under 3000 pounds and retaining it's mid engine layout. You can order it with forged wheels and carbon ceramic brakes.

SLK is not a league above. It does handle very well, but you can only get an SLK350 in automatic, it's sort of expensive compared to a Z4 when optioned, and it seems to focus on over the top luxury features like headed neck rests and speakers in the roll bars and $7000 designo packages.

I don't think the Z4 is going to be able to knock the Boxster off of the Car and Driver 10 Best list. But there are still lots of reasons to buy a Z4. Free maintenance and BMW service. Pure looks. European delivery discount (instead of paying for it like Porsche). Higher volume at BMW dealerships means you can negotiate better. 0% financing. And sharing it with the great BMW community.

Last edited by westwest888; 12-22-2008 at 07:29 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2008, 12:51 PM
kevalent kevalent is offline
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
Eh if they base it over 40k, then when you add in automatic and premium package for the suckers it'll be like 50k out the door for the 255hp model. Not sure if that would sell unless you give everyone 0% financing.
That's about what the current 255hp models run...I'm guessing it'll be within 2 points of the current 3.0Si model's pricing for the new one and +5k of that for the twin-turbo version.
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  #11  
Old 12-23-2008, 02:42 PM
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That's about what the current 255hp models run...I'm guessing it'll be within 2 points of the current 3.0Si model's pricing for the new one and +5k of that for the twin-turbo version.
Ever consider that there might not be a price change from one year to the next? Or that the price could actually go down? The price of a lot of things is deflating, why not cars also? There is tremendous over capacity and over supply.

The Z4 could have 400 hp and might only fetch $52k. The market price is not exactly going to be the sum of the parts, in this economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/bu...orts.html?_r=1

Quote:
LONG BEACH, Calif. — Gleaming new Mercedes cars roll one by one out of a huge container ship here and onto a pier. Ordinarily the cars would be loaded on trucks within hours, destined for dealerships around the country. But these are not ordinary times.

For now, the port itself is the destination. Unwelcome by dealers and buyers, thousands of cars worth tens of millions of dollars are being warehoused on increasingly crowded port property.
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  #12  
Old 12-23-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
Ever consider that there might not be a price change from one year to the next? Or that the price could actually go down? The price of a lot of things is deflating, why not cars also? There is tremendous over capacity and over supply.

The Z4 could have 400 hp and might only fetch $52k. The market price is not exactly going to be the sum of the parts, in this economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/bu...orts.html?_r=1
Well BMW as a whole is going the other direction and raising prices. All BMWs in North America will see a price increase in January.

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/12/23...s-for-january/

As stated above by others, I would bet the sDrive30 will start at a price near the 08 z4 3.0si. BMW is moving this z4 up class a bit, no way will it go down in price. I see no way this car starts anywhere below $42k

Last edited by Stoky; 12-23-2008 at 03:38 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-23-2008, 08:11 PM
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If you think BMW is going to become a low volume, niche retailer with lots of pricing power like Porsche, then you're right. But nothing about the BMW world strategy indicates that to me. Everything I see is moves toward high capacity, high volume, and low prices.

The bond market is pricing in deflation. Retail stores 70% off, American trucks are buy 1 get 1, houses are off 40% in lots of areas. BMW's are great but so are some of these houses and items at department stores.

I don't see the price of this car budging much. They probably learned their lesson with the M3. Do the math on that model year crossover. Old M3 was $52k base, the new M3 coupe was $56k base. They raised the price $4000, or so it seemed. Then it didn't sell so they gave 0% financing, which is a $10,000 incentive. Yes, the 6% on $60,000 over 60 months is $9598.20 in interest paid. The way I see it, they sold all of those new 2008 M3's for $46,000 base price and baked in the interest. Deflation? Your call.

Maybe they'll sell the Z4 for $42k with a negative interest rate - one that pays down the principal for every year that goes by.

Last edited by westwest888; 12-23-2008 at 08:18 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2008, 06:10 AM
kevalent kevalent is offline
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I don't think that BMW is going to try to go the niche market route but if you look at their direct competition they do have plenty of room to move. The 2009 SLK's start at 46k, comparable 6-cylinder TT's start at 45k (not counting the 4-cyl since BMW won't have a direct competitor in this market), and Boxster's start around 46k...compared to those the current Z4's are a downright bargain and BMWNA would be insane not to raise their price somewhat to match the competition even given the current economy.

I wish they would keep their pricing in check but I don't think it's going to happen especially since competitors are bumping MSRPs up as well.
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
If you think BMW is going to become a low volume, niche retailer with lots of pricing power like Porsche, then you're right. But nothing about the BMW world strategy indicates that to me. Everything I see is moves toward high capacity, high volume, and low prices.

The bond market is pricing in deflation. Retail stores 70% off, American trucks are buy 1 get 1, houses are off 40% in lots of areas. BMW's are great but so are some of these houses and items at department stores.

I don't see the price of this car budging much. They probably learned their lesson with the M3. Do the math on that model year crossover. Old M3 was $52k base, the new M3 coupe was $56k base. They raised the price $4000, or so it seemed. Then it didn't sell so they gave 0% financing, which is a $10,000 incentive. Yes, the 6% on $60,000 over 60 months is $9598.20 in interest paid. The way I see it, they sold all of those new 2008 M3's for $46,000 base price and baked in the interest. Deflation? Your call.

Maybe they'll sell the Z4 for $42k with a negative interest rate - one that pays down the principal for every year that goes by.

We will agree to disagree. I hope you are right about the pricing, that would mean I will be able to get the new z4. We will have to wait and see what BMW comes out with, probably sometime when the car is shown in Detroit. Untill then...
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  #16  
Old 12-27-2008, 06:24 PM
iwanna330cic iwanna330cic is offline
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Uhm . . . have you guys checked the economy lately? While MSRP is one thing, BMW isn't going to launch this thing with the expectation of selling a lot of them for some time. Sure - there are folks who will buy them, regardless of how much their portfolio has turned to crap, but most of those potential buyers our there (like me) will wait until deals can be made and the actual price will be discounted. If BMW keeps the supply low (which it probably will) then those "deals" will be quite some time down the road. Bad time to be bringing out a 45K - 55K sports car, I'm afraid. Having said all that, I would imagine a slightly more than typical price increase on the new Z4, but not a huge jump.

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Old 12-27-2008, 10:37 PM
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Uhm . . . have you guys checked the economy lately? While MSRP is one thing, BMW isn't going to launch this thing with the expectation of selling a lot of them for some time. Sure - there are folks who will buy them, regardless of how much their portfolio has turned to crap, but most of those potential buyers our there (like me) will wait until deals can be made and the actual price will be discounted. If BMW keeps the supply low (which it probably will) then those "deals" will be quite some time down the road. Bad time to be bringing out a 45K - 55K sports car, I'm afraid. Having said all that, I would imagine a slightly more than typical price increase on the new Z4, but not a huge jump.

Doug
That's how I look at it, too.

My Z4, an 05, had 3000 miles on it when I bought it, its original MSRP was 51k, I paid 30 and change for it.

My current car had an MSRP in the mid 50's - I bought it when it was only 8 months old and had 2000 miles on it - I paid mid 40's and got a CPO tag.

It's the best way to buy these cars provided you don't mind taking whatever color/option combo is available.

The first owner takes the big hit, but you enjoy the car during its prime.

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  #18  
Old 12-31-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
They probably learned their lesson with the M3. Do the math on that model year crossover. Old M3 was $52k base, the new M3 coupe was $56k base. They raised the price $4000, or so it seemed. Then it didn't sell so they gave 0% financing, which is a $10,000 incentive. Yes, the 6% on $60,000 over 60 months is $9598.20 in interest paid. The way I see it, they sold all of those new 2008 M3's for $46,000 base price and baked in the interest. Deflation? Your call.

Maybe they'll sell the Z4 for $42k with a negative interest rate - one that pays down the principal for every year that goes by.
Well that does not help those of us that pay cash for a car.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:43 AM
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Well that does not help those of us that pay cash for a car.
it sucks to be the rest of us...
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:39 AM
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I've been wrong lots but having said that I believe we will have inflation, not deflation. Bernanke is a great student of deflation and he knows very well that in this country today a real deflation like the 1930s could lead to anarchy or worse which is why they will create whatever money is necessary to stop it. If they succeed the result must be inflation. Gold prices indicate inflation and the bond market is an abberation due to people wanting a safe haven plus the tremendous influence of foreign governments like China buying treasury bonds with their U.S. dollars. Before you start flaming I might mention I posted last summer that oil and gas prices would come way down and that alternative energy like sun and wind would soon be forgotten. Someone replied that I was an idiot.
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  #21  
Old 01-02-2009, 04:54 PM
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Well that does not help those of us that pay cash for a car.
Who's that? People that don't understand the time-value of money? You can leave the incentive on the table if you want, but you'd be wise to take the loan and invest the money. Even the 5 year treasury is yielding 1.8% and you'd come out ahead. A modestly competent investor can earn a 5 or 10% return rather quickly in a market as volatile as this. Paying cash for something that has 0% financing is like admitting to the whole world that you don't know how to make an investment that has a return greater than 0%.

Regarding deflation and inflation, McLaren is correct that inflation will ultimately overwhelm the lower prices we are seeing today. Prices inflate when a lot of money is thrown at a finite amount of goods. Right now we're inverted because the velocity of money is low (no one is spending) and there is a huge oversupply or overcapacity.

The Fed and the Treasury have $8 trillion in recent commitments to spend or lend to private and central banks and non banks. The monetary base, specifically the Fed's balance sheet has expanded from $800b to over $2100b - in theory this TRIPLES the size of the money supply. In reality the velocity of money has fallen and it'll slow down the rate at which this extra money is apparent to all of us consumers. In 12-18 months we'll notice higher prices when people starting spending all the newly printed money.

I personally think that the Fed is trying to move the decimal point on US dollars one place to the right. A crappy $100,000 3 bedroom ranch in California would become a $1,000,000 house. $1 gas becomes $10 gas. $100,000 in student loans taken out in 2002 would feel like nothing when you're paying it off with your new salary. And there's the rub - your wages will go up, but not 10x. Maybe only 5x. So you can afford to pay off your existing debt, but your standard of living is lower because you can't buy as much stuff. It's just not affordable any more.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:07 PM
gmlav8r gmlav8r is offline
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Well, I understand the cost difference of a loan and investing. (ie. 4%interest loan with 4.5% money market account = .5% gain. then minus fees)

But why should a car manufacturer limit incentives to loans. I want $10,000 off the sale price. Cash is king.

Last edited by gmlav8r; 01-02-2009 at 09:24 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-03-2009, 07:41 PM
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I´ll say the new Z4 is expected to start in the mid-40s.
And why I say is what edmunds says.
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  #24  
Old 01-17-2009, 04:04 PM
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Z4 will start at the Mid $40s and go up to the mid $50s.... just spoke to some people in the know and that is what they said. Numbers will not be official until right before production starts. They are still weighing market conditions and what standard features/ options will be grouped together.

Looking to price the car in the same league as the MB and just below the Porsche. BMW feels they have created a car more in line with those products and will be a better value for the money than the Porsche (and supposedly will out 'Ring it) b/c of standard features and fuel economy.

Do not forget they needed to move this upmarket to make way for a possible Z2.... we will see about that!
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  #25  
Old 01-17-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Z4 will start at the Mid $40s and go up to the mid $50s.... just spoke to some people in the know and that is what they said. Numbers will not be official until right before production starts. They are still weighing market conditions and what standard features/ options will be grouped together.

Looking to price the car in the same league as the MB and just below the Porsche. BMW feels they have created a car more in line with those products and will be a better value for the money than the Porsche (and supposedly will out 'Ring it) b/c of standard features and fuel economy.

Do not forget they needed to move this upmarket to make way for a possible Z2.... we will see about that!

When is production to begin?
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