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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #101  
Old 01-24-2010, 01:06 PM
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Jalli Jalli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
My car came with 1/4 tank of fuel. I had to ask for a full tank of fuel at delivery. They even quit stocking bottles of water at both my selling and local dealer.

Times are tough. At my Lexus dealer, they have all kinds of snacks, drinks and even fruit. They just built a new dealership and it's very plush.

Craig
That has more to do with your particular dealer than BMW...

It's time for another dealer.
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  #102  
Old 01-27-2010, 04:02 PM
texas2010X5D texas2010X5D is offline
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950 miles on 2010 X5D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
I agree! This issue could blunt the acceptance of the BMW Diesels for some time to come. All it has to do is become "common knowledge" that DEF is a hassle and BMW charges diesel owners high prices for topping it up between oil changes. Undoing that kind of bad PR could, and probably will, cost BMW far more than just taking care of it for the customer.

BTW the calculation you mentioned is simple IF you have some idea of the DEF usage rate ranges for any particular model. IF BMW has this info (and they should), they certainly don't seem to be sharing it with the BMW dealers and techs. Otherwise, BMW techs would know almost immediately that the low mileage between DEF top up issues we've read about on this and other X5 forums indicate:
1 - The DEF system on that 35d is not working properly: leaking, wasting DEF, etc..
or
2 - Both tanks weren't and/or aren't getting filled properly.
or
BOTH 1&2.

FWIW I'd bet the DEF usage rate for a 35d is somewhere in the range of 1,800-2,000 miles per gal of DEF. At this rate most 35d owner's would not need to top up the DEF between oil changes (11-13,000mi).

Funf Dreisig
It's a shame. If BMW owners complain and/or BMW NA puts out media concerns regarding the X5D-- us diesel owners will see a severe drop in resale... I bought the X5D for doing my environmental duty... not to mention tax credits, etc. I have 950 miles, the DEF light is on, countdown began today. Is the BMW quality just a dogma? I will go to the dealer, and deal with the BS... If they charge me, or give me any BS.... they are going to take this X5 back... with or without my lawyer.
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  #103  
Old 01-27-2010, 04:12 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas2010X5D View Post
It's a shame. If BMW owners complain and/or BMW NA puts out media concerns regarding the X5D-- us diesel owners will see a severe drop in resale... I bought the X5D for doing my environmental duty... not to mention tax credits, etc. I have 950 miles, the DEF light is on, countdown began today. Is the BMW quality just a dogma? I will go to the dealer, and deal with the BS... If they charge me, or give me any BS.... they are going to take this X5 back... with or without my lawyer.
Wait, I thought AdBlue was free for the first 50,000 miles...

- Mike
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'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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  #104  
Old 01-27-2010, 04:29 PM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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Originally Posted by Jalli View Post
That has more to do with your particular dealer than BMW...

It's time for another dealer.
I had to ask for a tank of fuel, but they did go and fill it up...

Craig
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  #105  
Old 01-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas2010X5D View Post
.. I have 950 miles, the DEF light is on, countdown began today....
Is the "950 miles" your total mileage or how many miles the warning says are left till shut down? IOW how many miles to date on your 35d? And at what mileage did the DEF warning occur?

Is the X5 in Dallas? I ask because Dallas has been above freezing lately. So a frozen passive tank would not be likely.

Funf Dreisig
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  #106  
Old 01-27-2010, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UncleJ View Post
Urea solution freezes at 23 degrees? Some bright spark at BMW is not paying attention. That is unsat, it makes the car undrivable at temperatures below 23 degees.
That's why they have the two tank system. If they didn't need to heat it, they'd just have one tank I expect.

The large semi diesels will also need heated tanks for their DEF, it's just the nature of the chemistry. It's an industry-wide, not just BMW, issue.

If they system works as designed, you should be able to go about 2,000 between active tank refills if the passive tank is frozen, i.e., as long as the passive tank melts within 2,000 miles, no problem. If not, you have to add DEF to the active tank every couple of thousand miles.

Not a perfect solution,but acceptable, at least to me.
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  #107  
Old 01-28-2010, 07:58 AM
texas2010X5D texas2010X5D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Wait, I thought AdBlue was free for the first 50,000 miles...

- Mike
It is. But bimmerfest folks expressed some issues with dealer charging for DEF fill up/top off due to some jargon in the Owner's manual-- potentially making owner pay. Anyway, glad (or not glad) to see others having same issues-- WE WILL HAVE TO GO CLASS ACTION IF ENOUGH OF US GET MAD, AND SEE OUR RESALE DIMINISH FROM BMW INCOMPETENCE IN ENGINEERING.
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  #108  
Old 01-28-2010, 08:06 AM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas2010X5D View Post
It is. But bimmerfest folks expressed some issues with dealer charging for DEF fill up/top off due to some jargon in the Owner's manual-- potentially making owner pay. Anyway, glad (or not glad) to see others having same issues-- WE WILL HAVE TO GO CLASS ACTION IF ENOUGH OF US GET MAD, AND SEE OUR RESALE DIMINISH FROM BMW INCOMPETENCE IN ENGINEERING.
Resale value is not guaranteed by any manufacturer (or Jaguar would be out of business). Merker tried it back in the 1980s on its Scorpio model, if you recall. You can't sue because you were duped in the showroom.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #109  
Old 01-28-2010, 07:16 PM
texas2010X5D texas2010X5D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Resale value is not guaranteed by any manufacturer (or Jaguar would be out of business). Merker tried it back in the 1980s on its Scorpio model, if you recall. You can't sue because you were duped in the showroom.

- Mike
Point is... if X5D has engineering issue regarding DEF, with folks from all over country with issues.. and must go to dealer, half time not knowing how to fix anyway, then the vehicle--in this state potentially covered by 'lemon laws'. DEF system appears to be malfunctioning... wonder how many folks have issue not part of bimmerfest. Enough said.
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  #110  
Old 02-05-2010, 08:53 AM
DENISEANNE DENISEANNE is offline
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the dealer in Colorado had my 2009 X5 for 3 weeks. The factory rep looked at it and then called BMW. The problem is when the temp is 24 or below. The pump will freeze. It's in the owner's manual page 246. Bmw will not do anything about this as is working as designed........what a load of crap.
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  #111  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:03 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
the dealer in Colorado had my 2009 X5 for 3 weeks. The factory rep looked at it and then called BMW. The problem is when the temp is 24 or below. The pump will freeze. It's in the owner's manual page 246. Bmw will not do anything about this as is working as designed........what a load of crap.

Maybe it is time to make some noise....

Look, the entire Toyota thing is a great example of the 'dance' between mfg, public and regulators.... mfgs hide behind "working as designed' until a regulatory body says 'that design is defective'.

Now, the question one has to ask is 'does emissions go out of compliance due to this design defect'?? If so, it should be reported and BMW pressured to address this. I suspect this is, unfortunately, not the case. for everyone- perhaps those that live in 'freezing all the time' areas may have a case.

A
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  #112  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:09 AM
DENISEANNE DENISEANNE is offline
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Thumbs down

I have called BMW. They made record of my complaint and said the car is working fine.
My service advisor thinks this is a load of c.....p. and he thought I would get a new car but not such luck. I did have the pump replace in October last year. I am not sure of the mileage but the car was only a few months old at that point.
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  #113  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:15 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
I have called BMW. They made record of my complaint and said the car is working fine.
My service advisor thinks this is a load of c.....p. and he thought I would get a new car but not such luck. I did have the pump replace in October last year. I am not sure of the mileage but the car was only a few months old at that point.
Not BMW, the people that regulate BMW are the ones that will make BMW address this issue (if it is, indeed, a scenario in which emissions compliance can be defective)
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  #114  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:18 AM
DENISEANNE DENISEANNE is offline
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Do you know who I would call? I would be happy to call them. I think BMW is hiding behind a problem.
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  #115  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:02 AM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
Do you know who I would call? I would be happy to call them. I think BMW is hiding behind a problem.
Letter. Certified.

Why do people call and email!?? Calling and talking is such folly, once you've come up against denial.

So I don't live in your state, but I typed Colorado Emissions Control into google and got this as the first hit:

http://www.aircarecolorado.com/links.htm

I'd spend 10 minutes, see if there are regulations that you could use to build a 'case' against BMW, then compose a letter. Send the letter to the appropriate group, and copy BMW. Send the copy to BMW certified, with a cover letter explaining what has lead to this report. Ask BMW to address this problem, and promise you will pursue this issue both with the regulators, the media, and other people you have heard are also having this issue through the internet.

Low odds of any immediate fixes, but it is a start.

A
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  #116  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:22 AM
DENISEANNE DENISEANNE is offline
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Thanks you for this information. I will start working on this.
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  #117  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:42 AM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
the dealer in Colorado had my 2009 X5 for 3 weeks. The factory rep looked at it and then called BMW. The problem is when the temp is 24 or below. The pump will freeze. It's in the owner's manual page 246. Bmw will not do anything about this as is working as designed........what a load of crap.
I thought it froze at 12 degrees, not 24? The heated tank shouldn't freeze at all...

Craig
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  #118  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:02 PM
DENISEANNE DENISEANNE is offline
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It's 23 deg. I have a 2009, in the owners manual its on page 246. The dealer was happy to point this out too me after my car was at the dealer for 3 weeks. Noone told us about this when we bought the car.
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  #119  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:09 PM
xian66369 xian66369 is offline
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Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
It's 23 deg. I have a 2009, in the owners manual its on page 246. The dealer was happy to point this out too me after my car was at the dealer for 3 weeks. Noone told us about this when we bought the car.
P226-P227 for 2010
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  #120  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:32 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENISEANNE View Post
the dealer in Colorado had my 2009 X5 for 3 weeks. The factory rep looked at it and then called BMW. The problem is when the temp is 24 or below. The pump will freeze. It's in the owner's manual page 246. Bmw will not do anything about this as is working as designed........what a load of crap.
Actually the 2009 X5 manual does NOT say that the "pump will freeze". It merely states that "at temperatures below +23F/-5C, it may also be necessary to refill the diesel exhaust fluid between regular maintenance dates." It then goes on to describe how to do this.

From everything I've read on this issue, it is the fluid in the larger 'passive' tank that freezes and the 35d then has only the DEF in the smaller heated 'active' tank available. This should be good for an absolute minimum of 1,000 miles (including the warning period) and can be extended indefinitely by simply topping up the active tank every 1,000 or so miles. BMW sells DEF in a special container (at a special price ) so that owners can top this up themselves using DEF that has been stored in a heated garage, etc.. There are much cheaper alternatives (Cummins) if you can be careful enough not to spill the DEF when using a funnel.

FWIW I'm not saying this is a handy arrangement for 35d owner with little or no inclination to open the hood and do minor maintenance themselves. But IMO this is hardly a BFD unless the 35d is stored/driven for extended miles/periods below -23F. Of course that is easy for me to say, since it rarely gets below -23F for more than a day or two here in the Texas hill country But if it did, I'd store a couple of gals of DEF in a warm place and top up the small tank at the first DEF warning light.

Funf Dreisig

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 02-05-2010 at 05:38 PM.
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  #121  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Interestingly, most other references say DEF freezes at 12 degrees F:

http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/produ...es/MB10033.pdf

Since the DEF has rather tight specifications, I suspect that the DEF freezes at 12 degrees, but that the X5 has a temperature sensor which prevents the pump from trying to pump the fluid if it is below 24 degrees to avoid burning-out the pump. The difference between the BMW listed 24 degrees and the freezing point of 12 degrees would be the safety margin, to cover the possibility of degraded or diluted DEF, sensor inaccuracy, and only partial melting of previously frozen DEF, e.g., if the DEF is frozen solid, it probably melts rather slowly if the temperature rises to 15 degrees and it's freezing point is 12 degrees.
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  #122  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Joegoesfishing Joegoesfishing is offline
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I'm not sure if I ever reported what was wrong with my urea system. Turned out that the factory never attached the tubing from the passive to active tank. So my active tank was never being refilled by the passive.

I haven't had another problem since the tubing was attached. Very satisfied with the dealer's & BMW NA attention to this situation.
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  #123  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:47 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Originally Posted by Joegoesfishing View Post
I'm not sure if I ever reported what was wrong with my urea system. Turned out that the factory never attached the tubing from the passive to active tank. So my active tank was never being refilled by the passive. ....
Thanks for the post. AFAIK this is first time this manufacturing error has been reported. But it would certainly explain some of the issues others have reported with DEF warnings after only a very few hundreds/thousand of miles on a new 35d.

BTW the mind boggles at what happens when the tubing from the passive to active tank is not attached. Does the active tank ask for more DEF and the system pumps DEF out of the passive tank and onto...uhh... I'd rather not think about it

Funf Dreisig
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  #124  
Old 02-09-2010, 06:56 PM
Joegoesfishing Joegoesfishing is offline
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In my case the tank outlet & ends of the tubing were all capped. Thus no fluid was pumped out of the passive tank. The dealer did replace the pump for fear that it was worn from running continuously to no avail.
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  #125  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Joegoesfishing View Post
The dealer did replace the pump for fear that it was worn from running continuously to no avail.
It sounds like you have a good dealer.
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