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  #1  
Old 07-17-2003, 08:42 AM
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Ausgang Ausgang is offline
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BorgWarner's latest 6-spd auto tranny more efficient than manual

The July issue of Automotive Engineering International Magazine includes an article on a jointly developed auto-trans (BorgWarner-Volkswagen) which is "aimed at enthusiasts" and is more efficient than a manual gearbox.

It's not a automatic in the traditional sense, as it does not have a torque converter. Instead, it uses an 'automated duel-clutch' mechanism. They call it a 6 spd automatic direct-shifting gearbox.

The clutch mechanism is 'wet', which unlike a 'dry' clutch mechanism, doesn't consume the friction material. One of the quotes from the article states this transmission is, "significantly superior to a manual gearbox in fuel economy, performance, and ease of shifting."

For a practical comparison, they report that the European market Golf R32 equipped with the DSG transmission does 0-62 mph in 6.0s vs. 6.4s with the manual gearbox. In terms of fuel efficiency, the DSG consumes ~1.3L/100km less than the manual.

Shifting is either via gear-lever or steering wheel shift buttons a la BMW's SMG.

In another tranny-related article AEI reports on Mercedes-Benz' adoption of a 7spd ZF automatic which will find its way into much of the product line.

Personal prediction: If Europeans (who are much bigger users of manual gearboxes) start switching to increasingly refined SMG-like systems ---- and such system continue to improve performance and efficiency better than manuals --- the clutch pedal and traditional manual may go down the path to obscurity.

The 'trick' will be to maintain the 'connectedness'. Based on what we're seeing in SMG-equipped racecars --- this may already be the case.
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  #2  
Old 07-17-2003, 08:44 AM
in_d_haus in_d_haus is offline
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They always use 0 - 60 to test efficiency Run the thing around a roadcourse..see whos more efficient
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  #3  
Old 07-17-2003, 08:45 AM
MikeW MikeW is offline
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:repost:

It is a very interesting transmission, but it is also old news.
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  #4  
Old 07-17-2003, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeW
:repost:

It is a very interesting transmission, but it is also old news.
I thought he said:

Quote:
The July issue of Automotive Engineering International Magazine includes an article on a jointly developed auto-trans (BorgWarner-Volkswagen) which is "aimed at enthusiasts" and is more efficient than a manual gearbox.
In any case, i also find the trend towards semi-automatic/sequential/whatever transmissions interesting. Exciting too.
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  #5  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:28 AM
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Kaz Kaz is offline
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Yes, this is a :repost:

DSG was announced by Volkswagen last December, first as an available transmission for the R32 Golf, then the TT 3.2.

It sounds promising (it was originally developed 20 years ago for Audi's UrQuattro rally car) but there have been some early test drive reports stating that the shift control action is too sluggish.
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:56 AM
Jeff_DML Jeff_DML is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_d_haus
They always use 0 - 60 to test efficiency Run the thing around a roadcourse..see whos more efficient
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. It "guesses" what your next gear you want to shift to. It would seem pretty hard to guess properly during a auto-x
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  #7  
Old 07-17-2003, 11:38 AM
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Ausgang Ausgang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. It "guesses" what your next gear you want to shift to. It would seem pretty hard to guess properly during a auto-x
I'm starting to think it's a waste of time to post anything around here, especially anything automotive-related.

First, I get a "repost" because the transmission wasn't just announced. Well, guess what: Automotive Engineering magazine is not in the business of 'scooping' the competition on the latest rumors and announcements. My post was intended to inform those who aren't SAE members on how this tranny is being reported on to people in the industry. SMG-like trannies aren't new. What's important (and I commented on it) is they are being watched closely by the industry to see how acceptance goes --- with an eye towards perhaps dimishing availability of pedal-operated 'dry' clutches.

With respect to 'efficiency' --- that's not something any auto-xer is going to be focused on. Performance 'Yes', and faster acceleration is attributed to this box. Lastly, only a fool would operate an SMG/DSG in automatic mode during an auto-x. You guys need to set aside some more time to watch Speedvision on the weekends to see SMGs being used on the track. (The coverage I've seen even includes floor-mounted cameras showing pedal technique.)
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2003, 11:46 AM
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They refer to "effieciency" in terms of fuel efficiency, yes? In which case, i can see how a clutch-less manual transmission would get better manuals than a regular manual. And also, i haven't gone auto-xing (i will one of these days), but i don't see how this system wouldn't be perfect for it. Like Ausgang said, there are plenty of races where this type of transmission is used, to a good degree of success. I would think that it would help auto-xing some (maybe this is just due to my naivete).

I mean, there's got to be a reason why companies are spending the time and the effort in engineering these things, right?

Ausgang, does it say anything else in the article about VW's DSG?
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2003, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausgang
With respect to 'efficiency' --- that's not something any auto-xer is going to be focused on. Performance 'Yes', and faster acceleration is attributed to this box. Lastly, only a fool would operate an SMG/DSG in automatic mode during an auto-x. You guys need to set aside some more time to watch Speedvision on the weekends to see SMGs being used on the track. (The coverage I've seen even includes floor-mounted cameras showing pedal technique.)
DSG has something else that is of concern to 'performance minded' people that SMG/F1/etc. do not.

The latter are essentially mechanically actuated manual transmissions. There is nothing new about how the gearboxes themselves work. DSG is different. The feature that makes DSG especially unique is the fact that there are essentially 2 MT-like gearbox mechanisms inside; one that operates the odd-numbered gears and one that operates the evens. They each have their own clutch and actuators. What this allows is for the next gear to be preselected by the currently inactive one, and engage it by transferring input power from the active to this preselected set of gears.

Herein likes the question/problem. Say you are in 3rd. Your previous actions have been to accelerate to this point, so the computers have told the gearbox to preselect 4th. But when you next need to shift, you need to downshift into 2nd, so you hit the downshift paddle. Well, the tranny will need to unselect 4th, select 2nd, then transfer the power from the odd to the even gears. How quickly and smoothly can it do this?
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2003, 11:48 AM
Jeff_DML Jeff_DML is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz
DSG has something else that is of concern to 'performance minded' people that SMG/F1/etc. do not...
Kaz you are too quick, you just basically posted what I was going to post.

But I will post anyways

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting you flame me when my response was automotive related.

DSG is not the same as SMG as I am sure you know. DSG has two clutches in which one active at a time. The quick shifts come when the transmission guesses the next gear is properly and already has that gear selected. During a auto-x if you pick a lower gear when the transmission was guessing the higher gear there is a significant performance hit inorder for the tranmission to change to the lower gear, something like a 1/3 or 1/2 second. Maybe the tranmission is smart and most of the time properly guesses the next gear but I am not sure and that was my guestion.

SMG on the other hand is more like a manaul transmission except is operates the 1 clutch for you. Whether you upshift or down shift it does not matter since it is all the same to the transmission, it just does what it is told. No guessing involved so shift time should be very predictable.

Or maybe I misread the DSG info I have seen and I am completely off base. But that is the point of these threads no?
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2003, 11:53 AM
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Ahh, i see. I completely forgot about that aspect of things. From your posts, i would then take it to assume that the computer "preselects" the next gear based on the style of your driving that it senses?
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  #12  
Old 07-17-2003, 02:37 PM
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TeamM3 TeamM3 is offline
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yeay, yeah, yeah - I'll believe it when I see it

but there was nothing wrong with posting the usual marketing claims of some manafacturing supplier. FWIW, they said the same thing when the original auto trans came out way back when ...
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