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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #426  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:35 PM
kgorczyn kgorczyn is offline
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Update:

For the first time in over 100,000 miles and 4 years, my trifecta is no more. Indie was able to successfully code/calibrate the sensors/modules after replacing the steering angle sensor. Put the old module back in, and it came up to "right front speed sensor" as before, so I'm the lucky guy that had 2 issues, the Steering Angle Sensor AND a Bad Module. I guess no way to diagnose that sensor before replacing the module. Indie was able to code without to many issues once the sensor was replaced. The GT1 gave a "CAN BUS COMMUNICATION" error one time, but he worked passed it and everything works.

First thing I did was I tested DSC and ABS and both work fine. DSC Button works fine as well. Wow it's so weird looking at my dash now.

Thanks to all for your replies, I'm glad this ordeal is over.

For those curious,
Module = $500
Steering Angle Sensor = $270
Labor = 3 Hours (I know for a fact he spent AT LEAST 6 hours on my car) = $280
Total w/ taxes Out To Door = $1130
No Christmas Tree Lights at 222k miles (and the safety aspect) = Priceless

Ughh :-(
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  #427  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:07 PM
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Fleetman Fleetman is offline
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@Neversaynever - I may be way off base here but from what I've seen in the pictures you provided, I think you have a defective R/F wheel sensor for starters. For the L/F and L/R, either the connection is still not being made at the ABS module connector or there is a wiring problem downstream from the connector. The R/R sensor is giving you a reading although lower than expected.

Keep in mind that your DMM is supplying voltage through the diode in the sensor and some DMM's are not as "sensitive" as others. A low/dead DMM battery can and will affect your readings.....do you have access to another meter? You may be wrestling with a meter incapable of measuring the low voltages applied through the diode.

One of the meters I have (Cen-Tech that I keep in the trunk) never did give me readings at my test leads but my Fluke meter tested reliably and repeatedly as well as a Craftsman meter I have. It appears you are using a Cen-Tech also?

For what it's worth, you COULD try swapping the R/F and L/F sensors and see if you lose your reading at the L/F once you switch.

Trying to help here pardner but it's tough via the keyboard.
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  #428  
Old 05-20-2011, 08:25 PM
Neversaynever Neversaynever is offline
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Thanks Fleetman. I totally appreciate the interest and the help. And no worries that I keep battling this. Maybe I will get a chance to test the RF sensor this weekend. Regardless, I will meet with a good independent indy on Monday and see what he says. Should be interesting because, thanks to all of you, I am dangerously knowledgeable. I'll absolutely post my progress, or lack thereof, along the way.
And yes, my truly excellent DMM is a $6 Cen-Tech unit HF. Probably good for continuity and not much else.
CL
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  #429  
Old 05-22-2011, 11:38 PM
geneqco geneqco is offline
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DSC problem - ABS is fine

Hi all, I'm new to this forum but have been having a DSC issue so I hope someone can help!

I have a RHD 1999 540i and the only issue I have is the DSC light is on and the DSC is not working. There is a fault code in the ABS system (I think 088) that relates to the pre charge pump... the ABS, cruise control, speedo etc are all working fine. The resistance across the pre charge pump (located under the driver's side cabin filter box next to the brake master cylinder and booster) terminals is 0.7 Ohms which I believe (from other research) is normal. A lot of research has suggested the issue may be the light pink ABS relays (Pelican says there are two of them). I have bought the new relays but cannot find where they are located. I have done many searches which all seem to suggest they are located under the passenger side cabin filter box where the DME and transmission computers are located but they don't seem to be there. There are numerous other relays there but not the ABS relays (I think they may have been there in earlier models or perhaps with the DME for LHD cars).

Any help as to the location of these relays or any other issues to check would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Scott (Sydney, Australia)
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  #430  
Old 05-23-2011, 02:39 PM
Neversaynever Neversaynever is offline
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Success, good result and a little poorer!!
This is one of those many times when it's time to thanks Bluebee, Bill, Mark, Fleetman and the many others who spend their valuable time helping E39 strangers. I will spin my tale first and then offer a little tip for others:
The fix: Based on Fleetman's post above, all indicators point the right front (RF) ABS sensor. I decided to take the E39 to a great and trusted local indy with a full description of what I tried and learned. His code reader does test through to the sensors (not sure which reader) which pointed to, surprise!!, the RF ABS sensor. He removed it, test it, found it failed and then noticed the wire broken deep in the sensor case. He offered to have me pick up the car for the cost of diagnosis, but I thought, with the senosr out, the car in the air, and a really good guy working on it, just get a new sensor and make the repair. This turned out to be the right move as he needed to recode the ABS controller anyway to clear the lights. Shop is LandShark Auto in Natick Ma.
The tip: Lenny at LandShark suggested the next failure will likely be the ABS controller itself. This is due to heat from proximity to the engine. This is well known and much discussed in this post and the BBS overall. Lenny suggested making a sheet metal barrier between the ABS controller and engine, and get some of the self sticking aluminized insulation material which you attach to the engine side of the shield. He said, "seems simple but really helps". That will be my next simple enhancement.
Anyway, thanks everyone for all the help and support.
Chris (Neversaynever)
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  #431  
Old 05-23-2011, 10:16 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neversaynever View Post
the RF ABS sensor. He removed it, test it, found it failed and then noticed the wire broken deep in the sensor case.
Thanks for writing back. This will help others. What I learned from the last few posts is that some digital multimeters stink. I used the Fluke 77, for what it's worth ... and it worked fine for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neversaynever View Post
he needed to recode the ABS controller anyway to clear the lights.
I didn't have to do anything to get rid of the lights once my ABS control module was rebuilt. I wonder why you needed to clear the trifecta lights after you replaced the bad sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neversaynever View Post
the next failure will likely be the ABS controller itself.
The larger steel wire will lift off its gold bondpad. We've seen it happen zillions of times. And, it seems to, eventually, happen to all of us. (It's simply a lousy design for a module placed too close to the engine to save costs.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neversaynever View Post
Lenny suggested making a sheet metal barrier between the ABS controller and engine
There is already a sheet-metal barrier (at least in my E39) that BMW put there; but somewhere in this 200-post thread are pictures of additional sheet metal barriers that users created exactly as your mechanic suggested.
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  #432  
Old 05-23-2011, 10:22 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgorczyn View Post
I'm the lucky guy that had 2 issues, the Steering Angle Sensor AND a Bad Module
Thank you so very much for taking the time and effort to update us once your trifecta was successfully resolved.

I'm sorry it cost as much as it did, but, your safety is now in better hands with the ABS and DSC back in action as it should be.

We all must agree that it's rare for BOTH issues to happen at the same time (at least anecdotally); but it is very common for the ABS control module to be bad and it's not wholly uncommon for the steering angle sensors to be bad ... so you can chalk that one up to luck.

There 'is' a way to test all 20 sensors that feed into the ABS control module, and, I'm sure the steering-angle sensor is covered. It's in that nice PDF that explains how the whole system works and how each sensor works and how to test each sensor:
- BMW_30-PAGE_DSC_COMPONENTS.PDF
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  #433  
Old 05-24-2011, 03:17 AM
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Fleetman Fleetman is offline
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Kudo's to you Neversaynever! Determination on your part resolved the issue. IMO, there's nothing wrong with going to an indy, primarily because it's much less expensive that simply throwing parts at your car when attenpting a repair. I think you made the right decision and went in with much more knowledge of how the system works and was able to discuss with your indy at his level.

Yep, I'm waiting for my ABS module to fail too and figure it will probably be in the not-so-far future.

DMM's are a lot like people....each is a little different and all have their own unique quirks. I keep my "cheapo" (actually have four of them....one for each vehicle) in the trunk but only rely on them for the simplest of tasks. When real trouble is brewing I pull out the big guns, i.e. Fluke. Just sayin'........

Outstanding Sir!

Fleetman out.......
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  #434  
Old 07-01-2011, 12:16 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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I have the same problem

Hi everbody, this is my first post...what a great write-up!

I was wondering if the wiring is different for a 2002 530i? I recently changed the front rotors and pads. My battery went dead during the installation...not sure why.

Once I got the battery charged, I had all 3 lights come on the ABS, Brake, and stability control.

So, I went to use the trouble shooting write-up on this thread.

When I measure the wheel sensors from the blue connector, I get a very high reading, 24M ohms in one direction, and an open circuit in the other direction. When I do the diode test, I get no voltage drop for all 4 sensors, meaning it looks like an open circuit.

I tried two different DVMs with the same result. I am positive that I am measuring the correct pin-outs, and making good contact with the meter probe.

I don't believe that I have 4 bad wheel sensors, the only thing that I could think of is that maybe my pin-outs are different?

Many thanks!








Quote:
Originally Posted by Neversaynever View Post
Bluebee, Fleetman and the rest of the team of thousands working with this problem, many thanks for your input and patience.
I tried yet again this weekend to test the wheel sensors from the blue ABS block. My results are as follows:
13 and 29 = No reading whatsoever on the meter in diode test mode. Just a 1 reading on the meter LED. Btw, 1 is the default when the probes are not touching anything.
30 and 31 = Same - just solid 1.
28 and 12 = same - nothing but the 1
15 and 16 = activity the meter from 740 fluxuating up to 1569 and jumping all around. Rotating the right front tire didn't really seem to have any effect to the random numbers being displayed.
I am quite comfortable that the meter works and the connections are being made. As I have said previously, the cruise control works fine. Also, I do not think I have a rev limiting issue.
Does anyone have any further thoughts on this? Is is possible to bring the 525 to a shop for the diagnosis only?
Thanks again.
Chris
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  #435  
Old 07-01-2011, 11:19 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
wondering if the wiring is different for a 2002 530i?
The pinouts were provided to us by Bill (540iman) so I can't tell you if they are the same for the 2002 530i; but they certainly cover my 2002 525i.

Nobody to date has intimated that the Bosch 5.7 pinout is any different on any model - so - unless someone pipes up otherwise, we have to assume the pinout is the same for your vehicle as proposed in this thread.

Of course, for the earlier models, where the ABS control module is under the glovebox, the pinout 'is' different; but we already covered that in the later posts of this thread.

BTW, did you doublecheck that you counted the pins correctly from the stamped numbers on each end?

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  #436  
Old 07-02-2011, 04:43 AM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Thank you bluebee for your response.

Yes, I am positive that I have measured the correct pin outs on the blue connector, per the diagram. I am not sure why I can't get a voltage drop across each sensor diode, and that the resistance is so high on each of the wheel sensors. It almost appears like there is an open circuit.

I can't see how it would be possible to have 4 bad sensors. I may try measuring a sensor at a wheel, but that may be tricky trying to get the meter probes into the male socket on the sensor.
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  #437  
Old 07-02-2011, 07:22 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I am not sure why I can't get a voltage drop across each sensor diode
Allow me to ask something obvious.

You're not actually measuring "voltage" when you're looking for the diode-action voltage drop.

That is, your meter is 'not' in any 'voltage' setting. It's in the 'diode' setting.

Can you show us a picture of the setting you used?
What happens when you test an actual diode?

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  #438  
Old 07-02-2011, 08:08 AM
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Fleetman Fleetman is offline
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Just finished checking my wheel sensors....but, after troubleshooting, it appears my ABS module is bad. A few months ago I had the ABS/ASC/CHECK ENG light on and found my R/R wheel sensor bad. Yesterday, after driving 59 miles of a 60 mile commute, stopped at a light and felt a shudder. ABS, ASC, Trans, and Check Eng lights on plus the transmission was in limp mode and no speedo. Codes P0600 and P1747.

Just finished checking the readings for my wheel sensors and got:
R/F - Pins 15/16 = 1.672
L/F - Pins 12/28 = 1.687
R/R - Pins 30/31 = 1.665
L/R - Pins 13/29 = 1.678

I'm sending my ABS module (after doing a little research on who seems best) in for repair. Once I disconnected the ABS module, the trans light is off and the trans is shifting fine.

It can be a little tough finding a suitable lead to get a reading at the ABS connector.
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  #439  
Old 07-02-2011, 08:24 AM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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I am testing exactly the same way in the diagram you provided. When in the diode mode, the DMM supplies a very small current.

Also, I have tried 2 DMMs, an expensive Fluke meter, and a cheap Harbor Freight with the same results.


The typical voltage across a diode should be:

Forward voltage = 0.400-0.700 mV
Reverse voltage = OL

When I test a diode I get 540mV forward, and OL reverse.
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  #440  
Old 07-02-2011, 02:20 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
When I test a diode I get 540mV forward, and OL reverse.
That's right. The hall effect sensor 'acts like' a diode would (it's not actually a diode); so the voltages are different - but - you are correct that in the diode mode, there is current from the meter through the circuit under test.

That's all I had ... maybe someone else has a more definitive diagnostic?
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  #441  
Old 07-02-2011, 03:59 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Bluebee,

Thanks for your help. I ordered Carsoft v6.5, so once I receive the product, hopefully it will point me to the source of the problem. Like I said, the trifecta happened right after I replaced the front rotors and pads. I have a sneaking suspicion that it could be one of the front wheel speed sensors, albeit I didn't touch any of them except to open the enclosure housing for the brake wear sensor connection, which is right next to the left wheel speed sensor within the enclosure housing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
That's right. The hall effect sensor 'acts like' a diode would (it's not actually a diode); so the voltages are different - but - you are correct that in the diode mode, there is current from the meter through the circuit under test.

That's all I had ... maybe someone else has a more definitive diagnostic?
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  #442  
Old 07-02-2011, 06:29 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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-

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  #443  
Old 07-02-2011, 06:30 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
Bluebee,

Thanks for your help. I ordered Carsoft v6.5, so once I receive the product, hopefully it will point me to the source of the problem. .
Try to cancel your "order." Carsoft v6.5 is next to useless and is available free - you still have to buy the interface and cables but don't bother. Get INPA, DIS and SSS here and buy an OBD interface and cables on ebay.
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  #444  
Old 07-02-2011, 07:53 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Too late to cancel. I only paid $58 for everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Try to cancel your "order." Carsoft v6.5 is next to useless and is available free - you still have to buy the interface and cables but don't bother. Get INPA, DIS and SSS here and buy an OBD interface and cables on ebay.
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  #445  
Old 07-03-2011, 12:05 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I ordered Carsoft v6.5, so once I receive the product, hopefully it will point me to the source of the problem.
It won't. I'm getting tired of referring why. If you read this thread, and particularly tons of 540iman's responses, you'll see why the best diagnostic tool isn't the fancy schmancy tool.

But, nothing wrong with Carsoft - it's a lot of fun to make the E39 windows go up and down from your laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I have a sneaking suspicion that it could be one of the front wheel speed sensors
At the risk of repeating what has been repeated a thousand times before, it's almost always one (and only one) of the wheel speed sensors ... or ... the steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad inside the ABS control module.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Try to cancel your "order." Carsoft v6.5 is next to useless and is available free
I wasn't aware that you could download Carsoft; but I suppose a torrent exists somewhere of almost everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Get INPA, DIS and SSS here and buy an OBD interface and cables on ebay.
Again, if I understand Bill correctly, all these fancy schmancy tools won't help for the classic ABS BRAKE DSC trifecta. Of course, they are very useful for plenty of other things ... so no harm done if you get them ... but ... trifecta is different apparently than most problems.

I really am just repeating what has been said umpteen times in this thread, so, I'll leave it at this advice:

- If you're trying to diagnose the trifecta, then spend your money on a good digital multimeter and test leads instead of the fancy schmancy diagnostic tools.

- If you can't get a good reading on multiple wheel speed sensors, then usually it's something wrong with your technique or your multimeter. Time and time again this has shown itself to be the case.

- When the sensors finally test good, almost everyone has been successful with the reattachment of the steel wire on the gold bondpad or a new/used ABS control module that has the steel wire still attached to the gold bondpad.

Boiled down, there's not much more to it than that (in most cases).

Of course, it 'could' be any one of about 20 sensors ... but most of the time, it's not.
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  #446  
Old 07-03-2011, 12:20 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Update,

I removed all 4 wheel sensors, cleaned them and measured each one at the sensor. I get the same readings on all 4 sensors; 24M in one direction, and OL in the other, as I did when I measured at the connector. The diode test produced no voltage drop in either direction.

So, my measurements were the same as the ones taken at the blue connector. I also shorted each wheel lead back to the blue connector that confirmed that I have continuity through the wiring harness. 24M is a very high resistance. Has anybody actually measured the resistance at the sensor? I have read through all the threads and it seems measurements are somewhere between 1.5K ohm - 29M ohms.
I believe what is being measured is the coil resistance inside the sensor. That should be a low number depending on the size and length of the coil wire. Essentially, the sensor is nothing but an ac pulse generator, whose amplitude and frequency is based upon wheel rotation.

I reassemble all the sensors, started the car, and all three lights were gone for about 10 min., then all three lights appeared again. I did not move the car.

I am scratching my head. I don't want to shotgun replace parts w/o knowing the root cause.

It's sounding like an ABS control module, but I am not totally convinced, yet.

Back to the drawing board.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
It won't. I'm getting tired of referring why. If you read this thread, and particularly tons of 540iman's responses, you'll see why the best diagnostic tool isn't the fancy schmancy tool.

But, nothing wrong with Carsoft - it's a lot of fun to make the E39 windows go up and down from your laptop.



At the risk of repeating what has been repeated a thousand times before, it's almost always one (and only one) of the wheel speed sensors ... or ... the steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad inside the ABS control module.



I wasn't aware that you could download Carsoft; but I suppose a torrent exists somewhere of almost everything.



Again, if I understand Bill correctly, all these fancy schmancy tools won't help for the classic ABS BRAKE DSC trifecta. Of course, they are very useful for plenty of other things ... so no harm done if you get them ... but ... trifecta is different apparently than most problems.

I really am just repeating what has been said umpteen times in this thread, so, I'll leave it at this advice:

- If you're trying to diagnose the trifecta, then spend your money on a good digital multimeter and test leads instead of the fancy schmancy diagnostic tools.

- If you can't get a good reading on multiple wheel speed sensors, then usually it's something wrong with your technique or your multimeter. Time and time again this has shown itself to be the case.

- When the sensors finally test good, almost everyone has been successful with the reattachment of the steel wire on the gold bondpad or a new/used ABS control module that has the steel wire still attached to the gold bondpad.

Boiled down, there's not much more to it than that (in most cases).

Of course, it 'could' be any one of about 20 sensors ... but most of the time, it's not.

Last edited by mffalrrel; 07-03-2011 at 02:01 PM.
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  #447  
Old 07-03-2011, 01:56 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I get the same readings on all 4 sensors
That's a good sign that they're all 'probably' OK. Consistency in the four sensors has shown itself repeatedly to be a good thing.

And, since that consistency carried over from the blue connector under the hood - that's evidence that the wiring is just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
The diode test produced no voltage drop in either direction.
That is inexplicable. I don't know what to say. It 'should' produce different readings forward biased versus reverse biased.

Maybe we should just 'throw out' this diode-test datapoint and move on to the ABS control module itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I reassemble all the sensors, started the car, and all three lights were gone for about 10 min., then all three lights appeared again. I did not move the car.
It is typical for the trifecta to be intermittent. One rationale might be that the steel wire is just barely touching the gold bondpad inside the ABS control module ... and at some point ... (heat/vibration) ... it lifts up, ever so slightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I am scratching my head. I don't want to shotgun replace parts w/o knowing the root cause.
If it makes you feel any better, it took me about a year to finally agree with everyone that, if the wheel speed sensors tested good - then it was the steel wire inside the ABS control module.

Methinks it's time for you to invest in $105 plus $20 postage to send it off to the remanufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
It's sounding like an ABS control module, but I am not totally convinced, yet.
What would convince you would be for you to open up the ABS control module and (as stated many times in Bill's threads), move a magnetized needle amongst the steel (said to be 'power') wires.

If one of them moves with the magnetized needle, Bingo! You've found the problem.

At that point, you can ship the opened ABS control module to the rebuilders (who told me they get previously opened ABS control modules all the time); or you can try the micro-repair yourself.

In summary, based on all you've said (and excluding the errant diode test results), I'd have to suggest that your steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad.
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  #448  
Old 07-03-2011, 05:22 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Methinks it's time for you to invest in $105 plus $20 postage to send it off to the remanufacturers.

Prices have gone up a bit:

ATE $159
BBA $275
MM $300

Agree! Thanks for all your help. I am not sure I want to fix the module myself, however, I will send it out for repair.

Thanks for all your help!



In summary, based on all you've said (and excluding the errant diode test results), I'd have to suggest that your steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think you are correct.

Last edited by mffalrrel; 07-03-2011 at 09:43 PM.
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  #449  
Old 07-04-2011, 11:50 AM
bluebee's Avatar
bluebee bluebee is offline
Seek to understand,^Value
Location: San Jose, California
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,012
Mein Auto: 02 BMW 525i M54 auto 130K
Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
Prices have gone up a bit:
ATE $159
BBA $275
MM $300
Wow. Was it just about a year and a half ago that I paid ATE $105 plus $20 to UPS for shipping?

One option, since you seem to be up on all this, is to find an Ebay auction from one or more of those three suppliers - and risk the time it takes to bid.

If you do, let us know the going rate as those numbers seem awfully high in comparison to what I actually paid myself.
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  #450  
Old 07-04-2011, 03:21 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Location: CT
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 45
Mein Auto: 740il
Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
Prices have gone up a bit:

ATE $159
BBA $275
MM $300

.
BBA $185 on ebay, with free shipping both ways.
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