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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #51  
Old 03-29-2009, 10:27 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by wrighterjw10 View Post
i'm not sure why everyone on here thinks the advisor would be wrong. i mean, he works on these cars on a daily basis, and its his opinion.
Advisors come and go, some only stay a year. Those are high turnover jobs, not sure what wisdom you expect from a guy who has seen a few cars. The nationwide stats are more believable than one year or less at one dealership.
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2009, 10:38 AM
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Dont be such a sucker for the EPA ratings, they are terrible for hybrids and for DI engines. Only an ostrich would believe that their testing is reflective of the real world, especially when its contrary to real world experiences. BMW uses them on their site because its the only "govt rating" there is and everyone compares them.


If BMW would believe that those figures are not accurate, they would say it and *not* advertise them on their site. Period.
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2009, 10:47 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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If BMW would believe that those figures are not accurate, they would say it and *not* advertise them on their site. Period.
Because BMW doesnt use fuel mileage as a selling point on a 50K car, ya think?

Here you go, direct injection is even recognized by the government as the top fuel management strategy(12% better, VVT is only 5% better).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/tech_engine_more.shtml

I'll take hard core engineering over government testing anyday. Like I said, the 335i will probably get worse mileage than the G37 at idle, but thats about it. You can "out efficiency" direct injection with VVT, cant be done.
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:02 AM
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Direct injection is MUCH impressive as fuel economy goes in the European 330i; 272HP. 24mpg US city. Compared to 335i and the same European method 18 mpgUS.

In the 335i, the application of direct injection is so-so. Certainly not a stand-out. The N52 with direct injection is.
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:51 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Direct injection is MUCH impressive as fuel economy goes in the European 330i; 272HP. 24mpg US city. Compared to 335i and the same European method 18 mpgUS.

In the 335i, the application of direct injection is so-so. Certainly not a stand-out. The N52 with direct injection is.
Actually the engineering efficiency advantages are greatest for the turbo direct injected, not NA direct injected. You sound like you have your own bias against forced induction as your opinions are in direct contrast to the engineering realities. No way the euro 330 gets 24 mpg US city, no way, that is just poppycock. A max of 12% advantage over the N52 port injected motor would be more likely maybe 20 mpg city. And it would be 100ft lb down for most of the power curve to the N54, so that hardly a comparison of equal engine power under the curve. But you are entitled to your opinions which are in direct contrast to those of the international association of automotive engineers.
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  #56  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:01 PM
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eazy eazy is offline
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Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
Actually the engineering efficiency advantages are greatest for the turbo direct injected, not NA direct injected. You sound like you have your own bias against forced induction as your opinions are in direct contrast to the engineering realities. No way the euro 330 gets 24 mpg US city, no way, that is just poppycock. A max of 12% advantage over the N52 port injected motor would be more likely maybe 20 mpg city. And it would be 100ft lb down for most of the power curve to the N54, so that hardly a comparison of equal engine power under the curve. But you are entitled to your opinions which are in direct contrast to those of the international association of automotive engineers.
24mpg is base on the euro way of measuring gas milage. In the usa there is no non-hybrid 6 cylinder car that gets 24mpg in fact the 335d only gets 23mpg in the city.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:09 PM
andrewket andrewket is offline
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:33 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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24mpg is base on the euro way of measuring gas milage. In the usa there is no non-hybrid 6 cylinder car that gets 24mpg in fact the 335d only gets 23mpg in the city.

Yeah the imperial gallon and the euro calcs dont work. Thats why the comparison by saintor was poppycock.
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2009, 03:41 PM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Don't be stupid and blind.

My numbers are flat on. The Euro way claims 18mpgUS for the 335i (comparable to EPA) and 24mpgUS for the 330i.

From European L/100km to mpg US, as I said.
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2009, 04:40 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Don't be stupid and blind.

My numbers are flat on. The Euro way claims 18mpgUS for the 335i (comparable to EPA) and 24mpgUS for the 330i.

From European L/100km to mpg US, as I said.
No, being stupid and blind would be using european driving patterns to try to figure out what mileage you would get using US driving patterns just for the sake of twisting an arguement. So that stat would be "euro city/per US gallon"? What an assinine statistic, go away!
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  #61  
Old 03-29-2009, 04:43 PM
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*AGAIN* the EPA and "Euro way" are about the same for the 335i (17/18). The N52 DI in the 330i get 24 for 272HP and NOW we are talking about a real achievement. Facts, facts, facts, facts....
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  #62  
Old 03-29-2009, 06:51 PM
RUSSM535IL RUSSM535IL is offline
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Check out BMW expert Mike Millers ' comments in the tech correspondance section of the BMW car club magazine - or in Bimmer magazine which Mike also writes for.

BMW did not put a large enough oil cooler in the 335 - the twin turbos run hot - some cars have actually had the engine electronics automatically put the car into "limp mode" after track time in drivers schools so the engine would cool down. A number of mechanics have expressed concerns about the longevity of the N54 engine because of high temperatures and the extended engine oil services now reccomended by BMW (after they started to cover routine maintance.)

Supposed Dinan makes a oil cooler that cures the problem - also more regular oil changes are reccomended - at 6-7K not 10K - its annoying though that BMW hasnt adequately addressed this issue themselves

Russ DeJulio ( 25 yr BMW car club member)
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  #63  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:33 AM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Originally Posted by RUSSM535IL View Post
Check out BMW expert Mike Millers ' comments in the tech correspondance section of the BMW car club magazine - or in Bimmer magazine which Mike also writes for.

BMW did not put a large enough oil cooler in the 335 - the twin turbos run hot - some cars have actually had the engine electronics automatically put the car into "limp mode" after track time in drivers schools so the engine would cool down. A number of mechanics have expressed concerns about the longevity of the N54 engine because of high temperatures and the extended engine oil services now reccomended by BMW (after they started to cover routine maintance.)

Supposed Dinan makes a oil cooler that cures the problem - also more regular oil changes are reccomended - at 6-7K not 10K - its annoying though that BMW hasnt adequately addressed this issue themselves

Russ DeJulio ( 25 yr BMW car club member)
Pittsburgh,PA
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BMW claims that it's water cooling that makes the difference. Hence, they are including an auxiliary water cooler in their forthcoming performance package.

See these posts/this thread generally:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=133

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=143

And I have not heard reports of limp mode occurring in normal driving at this time.
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  #64  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:23 AM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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'07 335i

~25,000 miles


it's been to the dealer once - one oil change and new wiper blades.

not one issue.

i swapped out the runflats for real tires the week after i got the car.


use this info as you see fit.
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  #65  
Old 03-30-2009, 07:11 AM
335i Driver 335i Driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUSSM535IL View Post
Check out BMW expert Mike Millers ' comments in the tech correspondance section of the BMW car club magazine - or in Bimmer magazine which Mike also writes for.

BMW did not put a large enough oil cooler in the 335 - the twin turbos run hot - some cars have actually had the engine electronics automatically put the car into "limp mode" after track time in drivers schools so the engine would cool down. A number of mechanics have expressed concerns about the longevity of the N54 engine because of high temperatures and the extended engine oil services now reccomended by BMW (after they started to cover routine maintance.)

Supposed Dinan makes a oil cooler that cures the problem - also more regular oil changes are reccomended - at 6-7K not 10K - its annoying though that BMW hasnt adequately addressed this issue themselves

Russ DeJulio ( 25 yr BMW car club member)
Pittsburgh,PA
russm535il@aol.com

I've yet to see one single instance of a N54 engine overheating with the stock oil cooler. The only ones I've seen go into limp mode had no oil cooler at all.

And, BTW, anyone using EPA estimates for a gas mileage comparison is an idiot. I've been in one of the labs where they do the testing and watched them do the tests. There is absolutely no correlation to real world driving at all. The test loop mileage published by the various magazines is actually a pretty good comparison of how various cars will compare in real world driving.
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  #66  
Old 03-30-2009, 07:38 AM
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I think it's my fault that the mpg estimates became part of this discussion.

My only point was that the N54 engine gets you a whole lot of power for miniscule loss in mileage (as compared to the N52). If you want power and you're concerned about mileage, a turbo is the way to go because it only kicks in when you're having fun with the engine. I was just trying to point out an advantage of the 335 over my ride.
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  #67  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:31 PM
jmsent jmsent is offline
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I've yet to see one single instance of a N54 engine overheating with the stock oil cooler. The only ones I've seen go into limp mode had no oil cooler at all.
Exactly, and those overheats were virtually all on the track. I've had my car since Nov.06, haven't added the oil cooler, and have never come close to overheating. I don't track it, but I have driven the car aggressively on mountain roads during the hottest time of summer.


Quote:
And, BTW, anyone using EPA estimates for a gas mileage comparison is an idiot. I've been in one of the labs where they do the testing and watched them do the tests. There is absolutely no correlation to real world driving at all. The test loop mileage published by the various magazines is actually a pretty good comparison of how various cars will compare in real world driving.
I've owned every 3 series starting with the E30 325is, including an E46M3. My 335i is the mileage champ by a long shot. I was lucky to get 23-24 on the highway with my E30, and I'm getting a consistent 30 -32 mpg hwy with my 335i. This car gets excellent mileage, especially given its size, weight, and power. My M3, driven very conservatively, never did better than 17 city and 25 hwy.
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  #68  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:57 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Exactly, and those overheats were virtually all on the track. I've had my car since Nov.06, haven't added the oil cooler, and have never come close to overheating. I don't track it, but I have driven the car aggressively on mountain roads during the hottest time of summer.


same experience here.


i just checked and my ride was finished sometime around christmas, 2006.

i'm pretty sure i don't have an oil cooler because i looked.


~25,000 miles and not one issue. car has only had 1 oil change so far. i guess i'm due for another soon?


personally, i think people who have a lot of mechanical issues with cars have them because they beat on their cars. but that's just opinion.



or maybe those crazy bavarians took extra care assembling my car because it was xmas time and they love christmas in munchen.

love it.

only time of the year i think germans smile.
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  #69  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:25 PM
damyankee damyankee is offline
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Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
i just checked and my ride was finished sometime around christmas, 2006.

i'm pretty sure i don't have an oil cooler because i looked.


~25,000 miles and not one issue. car has only had 1 oil change so far. i guess i'm due for another soon?


personally, i think people who have a lot of mechanical issues with cars have them because they beat on their cars.
So you have a hot, high performance twin turbo with no oil cooler that you have been driving for 2 years, and it's had 1 oil change. I don't mean to single you out, as this is the typical maintenance for the vast majority of N54's out there, but if this is not the definition of "beating" on a car, then I don't know what is. She's a baby with only 25k; even with this paltry maintenance it's way too early to make any claims regarding longevity or reliability for this car. Nobody knows, it's all just internet opinions thus far.
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  #70  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:36 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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So you have a hot, high performance twin turbo with no oil cooler that you have been driving for 2 years, and it's had 1 oil change. I don't mean to single you out, as this is the typical maintenance for the vast majority of N54's out there, but if this is not the definition of "beating" on a car, then I don't know what is. She's a baby with only 25k; even with this paltry maintenance it's way too early to make any claims regarding longevity or reliability for this car. Nobody knows, it's all just internet opinions thus far.
you know what the best is? it's a lease and i change the oil when the computer says so.

i'm probably putting the ultimate whammy on myself, but i've never had a single warranty repair issue on any car i've ever leased or "owned", except for a heated seat in my prior car.


and i've had some cars not especially known for reliability - for instance, a lotus esprit turbo.
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  #71  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCook View Post
I think it's my fault that the mpg estimates became part of this discussion.

My only point was that the N54 engine gets you a whole lot of power for miniscule loss in mileage (as compared to the N52). If you want power and you're concerned about mileage, a turbo is the way to go because it only kicks in when you're having fun with the engine. I was just trying to point out an advantage of the 335 over my ride.
if I upgrade to a 335i I only sacrifice 1mpg to get an extra 70hp and 100lb of torque. That not a bad compromise if you ask me.
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  #72  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:58 PM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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if I upgrade to a 335i I only sacrifice 1mpg to get an extra 70hp and 100lb of torque. That not a bad compromise if you ask me.
Or, to put it in better perspective (per fueleconomy.gov, comparing 328i manual to 335i manual): you burn an extra 0.2 gallons of gas for every 100 miles.
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  #73  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 335i Driver View Post

And, BTW, anyone using EPA estimates for a gas mileage comparison is an idiot. .
And you *** ***** don't know what youy are talking about... EPA is fairly accurate with their recently revised methods. Actually the Euro method gets about the same city fuel consumption as EPA (18 vs 17) and it is rather ordinary in this case.

Last edited by Emission; 03-30-2009 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Personal attack
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  #74  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:41 PM
jmsent jmsent is offline
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Originally Posted by damyankee View Post
So you have a hot, high performance twin turbo with no oil cooler that you have been driving for 2 years, and it's had 1 oil change. I don't mean to single you out, as this is the typical maintenance for the vast majority of N54's out there, but if this is not the definition of "beating" on a car, then I don't know what is. She's a baby with only 25k; even with this paltry maintenance it's way too early to make any claims regarding longevity or reliability for this car. Nobody knows, it's all just internet opinions thus far.
Exactly. And that goes equally for those with low miles on their cars, and those "mechanical experts" who want to proclaim that this engine will most certainly melt down in the prime of its life. As for the oil cooler, my understanding is that the air to oil cooler in the wheel well is an auxiliary cooler that doesn't open until 240F. All 335's have a primary liquid to oil cooler. My car usually runs oil temps at 210-240. The highest I recall seeing is 260.
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Last edited by jmsent; 03-30-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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  #75  
Old 03-30-2009, 04:28 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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And you don't know what youy are talking about... EPA is fairly accurate with their recently revised methods. Actually the Euro method gets about the same city fuel consumption as EPA (18 vs 17) and it is rather ordinary in this case.
It appears that you know nothing about the euro ratings, the cars designed for that market(not the 335i) are designed to practically shut down many functions just to beat the legislation, its a bogus rating.

http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/t...&t=609122&i=60

here is a excerpt for those who dont want to waste too much time with this dumb claim of high gas mileage(24mpgUS) by the euro market 330i:


"These fuel economy & CO2 figures are gathered from the standardised New European Drive Cycle (NEDC) test and bear almost no relation to driving in the real world, and some manufacturers have the opportunity to work these figures better than others.

"The test is very benign in terms of engine speeds and loads and therefore with a number of add-on engine & ancillary features it is possible to switch off things that are "not needed". You don't need steering on the test so switch the steering pump off, you don't need much oil flow so set the oil pump to the minimum, you don't need much coolant flow so switch the water pump off, no need to charge the battery...... and so on. Another thing that BMW have done is they've put centrally mounted Gasoline Direct Injection () de-NOx cats () and to control the NOx cat regeneration cycle they fit NOx sensors (). The advantage of running centrally mounted direct injection is the ability to run the engine more consistently at lean Air-to-Fuel ratios (AFR), which is great for fuel economy however this produces lots of NOx but very little CO and unburnt hydrocarbons. This means that the pollutants cannot reduce and oxidise each other in a normal three-way cat, and so the NOx has to be captured in a NOx cat. However, as with most things in engineering there is no such thing as a free lunch, the NOx cat will need to be regenerated every so often and to do this the engine will run rich, which is bad for fuel economy, to reduce the captured NOx.

Now some of these systems have debatable benefits over the more realistic engine operation cycle (vane type variable flow oil pumps tend to have quite high friction at higher speeds). The de-NOx strategy is very debatable considering the regeneration cycle (nice tool for the calibrators to use for the NEDC though) and many other manufacturers are going for Stoichiometric AFR over as much as the speed/load range that only requires a conventional 3-way cat (much cheaper and less risky in terms of warranty but will not achieve the same in the NEDC)."

In short the euro market cars are designed to beat the NEDC ratings. The 335i is not designed as a euro only car so it doesnt shut down its power steering pump(or all the other fluid pumps, the battery charging, doesnt have a 3 way cat etc.,) to "beat the cycle".

Last edited by desertdriver; 03-30-2009 at 04:36 PM.
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