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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #26  
Old 04-05-2009, 09:29 AM
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invariant invariant is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
Alcohol through its 'drying-out' property, can concentrate water to a point where it is not compressible. Which is my theory - the ethanol in the U.S. gas acts to concentrate water in the gas (you don't need much at the pressure involved in the HPFP), which in turn works havoc with the HPFP. It is just a theory, however, and I have no data to back it up.
No liquid is compressible, including gasoline (meaning you can't compress liquid into smaller volume). Maybe you meant that too much water ruins hpfp seals?
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  #27  
Old 04-05-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 330ximd View Post
If I got called into the hospital in the middle of the night, and my car's hpfp was dead, I would be uber pissed as well.
I don't think you understand what happens when your hpfp fails.... Your car is still running and drivable, there is just a tremendous power loss. My hpfp failed and I did not have time to take the car to the dealer until 2 days after the failure.. I was able to drive the car to and from work during that time frame..
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  #28  
Old 04-05-2009, 12:05 PM
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Because it sucks to pay 45k+ for a car and have it leave you on the side of the road.
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  #29  
Old 04-05-2009, 12:32 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by invariant View Post
No liquid is compressible, including gasoline (meaning you can't compress liquid into smaller volume). Maybe you meant that too much water ruins hpfp seals?
True on the non-compressibility of liquid. In another lifetime, I owned a Diesel Rabbit. The injector pump of those cars was highly susceptible to water in the fuel. To avoid the problem of water in the fuel, I installed a water separator that was used by the tractor-trailer operators to remove water from the fuel. Again, just speculation since I have no data to back up my speculating, but I think water does something nasty to the seals in the HPFP, similar to what water in diesel does to injector pump seals. And ethanol in the fuel acts to concentrate the water.
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  #30  
Old 04-05-2009, 03:30 PM
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The service center is not automatically updating softwares along with HPFP replacements, are they?
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  #31  
Old 04-05-2009, 03:32 PM
KTB13 KTB13 is offline
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  #32  
Old 04-05-2009, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Because it sucks to pay 45k+ for a car and have it leave you on the side of the road.

OK I'm lost. The post right before yours mentioned that the car is still drivable when HPFP fails. This is not true?
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  #33  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:32 PM
neapolitan neapolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by invariant View Post
No liquid is compressible, including gasoline (meaning you can't compress liquid into smaller volume). Maybe you meant that too much water ruins hpfp seals?
I'm surprised Prof. Cook didn't bite on this. Strictly speaking, fluids are compressible, but just require extremely high pressures for very small changes in volume. They just aren't very compressible due to the closely packed nature of the atoms in the liquid state relative to a gas. The HPFP does indeed compress the gasoline, but the volume change is small.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../compress.html

That being said, I don't know what the poster you quoted is talking about either!
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  #34  
Old 04-05-2009, 05:49 PM
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  #35  
Old 04-05-2009, 07:01 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
True on the non-compressibility of liquid. In another lifetime, I owned a Diesel Rabbit. The injector pump of those cars was highly susceptible to water in the fuel. To avoid the problem of water in the fuel, I installed a water separator that was used by the tractor-trailer operators to remove water from the fuel. Again, just speculation since I have no data to back up my speculating, but I think water does something nasty to the seals in the HPFP, similar to what water in diesel does to injector pump seals. And ethanol in the fuel acts to concentrate the water.
Well the relevant reality is that water is generally not miscible in gasoline or diesel. This means that a fuel separator works well in taking the water out of your diesel/gas. However when you add 10% ethanol to gas, water becomes miscible in the gas to some degree, it is no longer truly separable, and it changes the viscosity of the gas. Of course the viscosity of the gas/diesel is what keeps the seals riding on a thin film of fuel, hence lubricated. When gas is blended at the refinery, a viscosity spec is achieved or the fuel fails and cannot be shipped. As water is drawn into the gas after shipment(remember its not fully immiscible in ethanolized fuels), the viscosity degrades and the fuel pump seals are no longer protected by the thin film of liquid. Because gas has a lower viscosity than diesel, it means that it forms thinner films and hence the pumps must be built to incredibly close tolerances in a high pressure application. Making things worse is that HPFP's must achieve the high pressures or fuel is not delivered correctly, and your engine must be protected against improper fuel delivery or kaboom, there goes your engine(limp mode is preferable trust me). This is why when the gasoline properties are destabilized over time (as with ethanol use) bad things happen, and not only to high pressure fuel pumps.

You guys with the 328/330/545 etc., who get this bad gas are going to have increased carbon desposits and premature engine death as well, since your "91" octane will probably be more like 85 octane after the water gets in and water impacts fuel properties like reid vapor pressure and nebulization for proper burn. But dont worry, archer daniels midland will one day say they are sorry for lobbying so heavily for ethanolized fuels, and the body politic so heavily invested in ethanolized fuels loves your support and sacrifice. There are few reasons for ethanolized fuels, they are NOT green as they end up (in the balance) producing more green house gases at the same time they increase the cost of food to the poor. This is why the europeans dont use them, they are more highly educated than us and they arent synchophants for the latest moronic "green" fad. But your US politicians love soft money and they love farmers, so welcome to ethanolized fuels.

By the way, my cars fuel pump has been flawless, 21K miles on the original siemens pump(jan 07 build), and not one studder. I cant recall startup even taking even one second, not once, and now I have a 10 year warranty, sweet! But I do use gas from only one station( a very new one) that gets very high traffic, and I live in the driest desert in the USA.

Last edited by desertdriver; 04-05-2009 at 07:12 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2009, 08:56 PM
g0at23 g0at23 is offline
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You guys are idiots if you are making excuses for BMW. Yes American gas has ethanol, but how come ONLY BMW fuel pumps have this problem? How come I never heard of anything wrong with other brands? They do run on the same gas you know.
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  #37  
Old 04-05-2009, 09:02 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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I wasn't aware that anyone was making excuses for BMW (other than the ones who were too lazy to read my follow-on post on compressibility of water in liquid form). My theory is that ethanol and water in the gas is the source of the problems. But it is a bit of a stretch to conclude that I am making an excuse for BMW. I am hoping BMW sorts out the HPFP failure issue; but making an excuse? Not me.
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  #38  
Old 04-05-2009, 10:03 PM
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330ximd 330ximd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
I don't think you understand what happens when your hpfp fails.... Your car is still running and drivable, there is just a tremendous power loss. My hpfp failed and I did not have time to take the car to the dealer until 2 days after the failure.. I was able to drive the car to and from work during that time frame..
Uhhh..think there are different experiences for everyone I guess. I know a few people on this forum and a colleague where their car would not start. So, I would be uber pissed if I was called in to the hospital and my car would not start due to hpfp.
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  #39  
Old 04-05-2009, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by g0at23 View Post
You guys are idiots if you are making excuses for BMW. Yes American gas has ethanol, but how come ONLY BMW fuel pumps have this problem? How come I never heard of anything wrong with other brands? They do run on the same gas you know.
Don't think we are making excuses at all for BMW...the OP stated it's not a big deal, and we actually think it IS a big deal, and it is definitely a design flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
I wasn't aware that anyone was making excuses for BMW (other than the ones who were too lazy to read my follow-on post on compressibility of water in liquid form). My theory is that ethanol and water in the gas is the source of the problems. But it is a bit of a stretch to conclude that I am making an excuse for BMW. I am hoping BMW sorts out the HPFP failure issue; but making an excuse? Not me.
+1,000,000. Agreed.
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  #40  
Old 04-05-2009, 10:35 PM
Shocktopus Shocktopus is offline
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The service center is not automatically updating softwares along with HPFP replacements, are they?
Mine did. Explanation was "It's a new electrical part so we need to update the car so it knows all the new parameters."

Sounded like complete bullsh1t to me, but whatever.
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  #41  
Old 04-06-2009, 12:20 AM
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OK I'm lost. The post right before yours mentioned that the car is still drivable when HPFP fails. This is not true?
It's drivable. You have 3 cylinders shut off to prevent engine damage. I just don't recommend it.
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  #42  
Old 04-06-2009, 02:59 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by g0at23 View Post
You guys are idiots if you are making excuses for BMW. Yes American gas has ethanol, but how come ONLY BMW fuel pumps have this problem? How come I never heard of anything wrong with other brands? They do run on the same gas you know.
BMW uses an electric high pressure fuel pump, VW/audi and mazda use a mechanical one that is activated by a follower on the camshaft. The failure of the mechanical one leads to a destroyed engine.

http://www.therpmstore.com/product_i...roducts_id=796


"The high-pressure fuel pump used on the Mazda vehicles is mechanically coupled to your camshaft. If the pump were to fail, be it by locking up and seizing, or wearing improperly, you stand to destroy your entire engine. In an effort to save potentially expensive, high performance engines, they aimed to offer what they consider to be the highest quality, and most thoroughly tested high-pressure fuel pump available."

Obviously its inconvenient to have your fuel pump die, but the cost of a new BMW engine is a bit high. WHen the audis get a bit older and catastrophic engine failures result when the worn parts arent replaced, we will see what design is best. The mazda/audi pumps are alot cheaper($600), but there are obvious issues with failure. It may fail less often, but the results are catastrophic. People who chip their audi/VW FSI cars require a new fuel pump to deliver more fuel, and even the pump manufacturers are saying that camshaft wear and failure is inevitable. Alot of people also chip BMW's, and I suspect that BMW didnt want to deal with the catastrophic engine failure issue of a mechanical fuel pump. The mechanical pumps apparently dont depend on seals as much to deliver the fuel, the failure is on the camshaft follower. Hence the mechanical ones will not have an issue with ethanol in gas.

If you chip your audi, this is what you will hear from the pump maker:

"Regardless of which camshaft you are using, Autotech cannot guarantee that your
camshaft's fuel pump lobe will not experience increased wear leading to a catastrophic
failure. All customers who choose to use Autotech's high volume fuel pump must accept
the additional risk of camshaft failure. It is incumbent upon the customer to check for
wear of the camshaft and follower on a regular basis and replace those parts as necessary
as a preventive measure against future failure. To be able to enjoy the benefits of this
part it is necessary for the customer to accept responsibility for wear and tear on other
related parts as mentioned above on their vehicle." I have read that audi/VW monitor the wear on these parts and replace the pumps to avoid the catastrophic engine failure, but it typically occurs off warranty(>36K miles), costs $600 plus labor.

Oh yeah, by the way audi has had a recall on the 08 FSI fuel pumps, for a fuel sensor which I expect detects camshaft wear(via fuel delivery out of spec?). When you risk catastrophic engine failure, I suppose that a recall makes more fiscal sense vs just replacing a pump. An idiot is someone who "knows" what is going on without collecting the facts.

Last edited by desertdriver; 04-06-2009 at 03:07 AM.
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  #43  
Old 04-06-2009, 08:04 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is online now
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For me it was the thought that of all the engineering BMW puts into their cars, the high performance with which they advertise, and they STILL cannot make a high pressure fuel pump within specifications for the vehicle. It isn't ethanol, it isn't any other magic, the thing just has poor design and quality control. We know it isn't ethanol because many have had pumps go within 100 miles of driving off the lot. There are many other production vehicles on the road with high pressure fuel systems, gas and diesel with no issues like this.
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  #44  
Old 04-06-2009, 08:36 AM
bluskye bluskye is offline
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Dont worry, the Audi 2.0T FSI engines have even crappier experiences with their fuel pump/camshaft issues. I know, I was researching the A3 2.0T. Audi managed to fail again.
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  #45  
Old 04-06-2009, 08:37 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
BMW uses an electric high pressure fuel pump, VW/audi and mazda use a mechanical one that is activated by a follower on the camshaft. The failure of the mechanical one leads to a destroyed engine.

http://www.therpmstore.com/product_i...roducts_id=796


"The high-pressure fuel pump used on the Mazda vehicles is mechanically coupled to your camshaft. If the pump were to fail, be it by locking up and seizing, or wearing improperly, you stand to destroy your entire engine. In an effort to save potentially expensive, high performance engines, they aimed to offer what they consider to be the highest quality, and most thoroughly tested high-pressure fuel pump available."

Obviously its inconvenient to have your fuel pump die, but the cost of a new BMW engine is a bit high. WHen the audis get a bit older and catastrophic engine failures result when the worn parts arent replaced, we will see what design is best. The mazda/audi pumps are alot cheaper($600), but there are obvious issues with failure. It may fail less often, but the results are catastrophic. People who chip their audi/VW FSI cars require a new fuel pump to deliver more fuel, and even the pump manufacturers are saying that camshaft wear and failure is inevitable. Alot of people also chip BMW's, and I suspect that BMW didnt want to deal with the catastrophic engine failure issue of a mechanical fuel pump. The mechanical pumps apparently dont depend on seals as much to deliver the fuel, the failure is on the camshaft follower. Hence the mechanical ones will not have an issue with ethanol in gas.

If you chip your audi, this is what you will hear from the pump maker:

"Regardless of which camshaft you are using, Autotech cannot guarantee that your
camshaft's fuel pump lobe will not experience increased wear leading to a catastrophic
failure. All customers who choose to use Autotech's high volume fuel pump must accept
the additional risk of camshaft failure. It is incumbent upon the customer to check for
wear of the camshaft and follower on a regular basis and replace those parts as necessary
as a preventive measure against future failure. To be able to enjoy the benefits of this
part it is necessary for the customer to accept responsibility for wear and tear on other
related parts as mentioned above on their vehicle." I have read that audi/VW monitor the wear on these parts and replace the pumps to avoid the catastrophic engine failure, but it typically occurs off warranty(>36K miles), costs $600 plus labor.

Oh yeah, by the way audi has had a recall on the 08 FSI fuel pumps, for a fuel sensor which I expect detects camshaft wear(via fuel delivery out of spec?). When you risk catastrophic engine failure, I suppose that a recall makes more fiscal sense vs just replacing a pump. An idiot is someone who "knows" what is going on without collecting the facts.
Hi DD, I thought that BMW used two fuel pumps. The first is an electric transfer pump located in the fuel tank. The second is a chain driven, mechanically powered pump mounted to the lower front of the engine block. I understand that it has electrical connections but aren't they for sensing and control purposes?
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  #46  
Old 04-06-2009, 10:35 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
For me it was the thought that of all the engineering BMW puts into their cars, the high performance with which they advertise, and they STILL cannot make a high pressure fuel pump within specifications for the vehicle. It isn't ethanol, it isn't any other magic, the thing just has poor design and quality control. We know it isn't ethanol because many have had pumps go within 100 miles of driving off the lot.
How do we know that just because a particular pump failed after 100 miles of use, the larger problem isn't ethanol? You were complaining about manufacturing quality control 2 sentences before.... Is it possible that the 100 mile failure was due to lax manufacturing quality control?
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  #47  
Old 04-06-2009, 10:49 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Hi DD, I thought that BMW used two fuel pumps. The first is an electric transfer pump located in the fuel tank. The second is a chain driven, mechanically powered pump mounted to the lower front of the engine block. I understand that it has electrical connections but aren't they for sensing and control purposes?
Yeah, I found that it is mechanical, but cant find a schematic. the BMW pump has 200bar pressure and its failure does not end up in destroying the engine like the VW audi/mazda products that run at only 130 bar. Higher pressures are of course going to be more difficult for the seals.

Its also interesting that everyones gasoline direct injection is NOT the same(check out wiki on direct injection, there are different systems by mitsubishi, toyota mazda, VW, and BMW(siemens/bosch). Toyota uses a combination of direct and port injection, VW/audi design uses solenoid control valves to meter fuel and BMWs design(pioneered by bosh and siemens) is the most precise and accurate using piezoelectric injectors. VW and audis patent(developed in 2000) admits to excessive carbon deposit formation that is due in part to fuel delivery control problems(they allude to solutions including better control of fuel delivery, like shutting it off before ignition). The BMW direct injection does just that with piezo electrics which are MUCH more precise at high speed than solenoid valves, but appear to require 50% higher pump pressures. So, it appears that the new direct injection system used in the BMW products is better at controlling carbon deposits, and preventing catastrophic engine failure, but runs at higher pressure and has more fuel pump failure issues. Clearly the system used by BMW is the most advanced, but the most recent(2006), and hence the issues. But that is not stopping the bosch/siemens design from going into the Ferrari california.

If you go back, each of these systems has had issues and most were tested in other markets for a few years, most of the others still have the carbon deposit issues. And I dont buy that those carbon deposit issues are mainly egr issues, as aromatic deposits on the valve stems(cited by vw/audi as most common) are perhaps THE major defining issue, and the aromatic content of motor oils is alot lower than the aromatic contents of gas(up to 25-30%). As a matter of fact, the aromatic contents of synthetic motor oils are just about zero, NADA. Im betting those aromatic carbon deposits are just unburnt fuel around the exhaust valve stem area due to poor control of the fuel delivery. Direct injection technology looks to be going forward and there are growing pains. I'll take less carbon deposits and no catastrophic engine failure rather than a more reliable fuel pump.

If anyone finds something interesting on this(to the contrary or otherwise), I'd be interested to learn more.
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  #48  
Old 04-06-2009, 10:55 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
I'll take less carbon deposits and no catastrophic engine failure rather than a more reliable fuel pump.
That is easy for you to say... you are allegedly sitting on a 10 year/120K mile HPFP warranty....

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
If anyone finds something interesting on this(to the contrary or otherwise), I'd be interested to learn more.
+1.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the retail (non-warranty) repair cost (parts & labor) is to R&R a HPFP? For those who are not covered by the extended HPFP warranty, that number might help make a decision on an extended warranty policy.

Last edited by anE934fun; 04-06-2009 at 10:58 AM. Reason: See EDIT above.
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  #49  
Old 04-06-2009, 10:57 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
For me it was the thought that of all the engineering BMW puts into their cars, the high performance with which they advertise, and they STILL cannot make a high pressure fuel pump within specifications for the vehicle. It isn't ethanol, it isn't any other magic, the thing just has poor design and quality control. We know it isn't ethanol because many have had pumps go within 100 miles of driving off the lot. There are many other production vehicles on the road with high pressure fuel systems, gas and diesel with no issues like this.
The problem with this assumption is that you assume only one failure mode. BMW's pumps are higher pressure than the others and will need better tolerances, and assembly. So sometimes it is assembly and sometimes it can be fuel quality. The BMW system is a more recently advanced system by bosch/siemens. It uses piezoelectrics to overcome some of the more serious issues of previous designs(like carbon deposits that will lead to early engine death), and it appears to have growing pains like all the others, but the issues are different. The piezoelectrics apparently require higher pressure pumps to control the fuel better(and they are better), but that probably means that fuel quality and part tolerances must be within spec or the pumps will fail. VW GTI aftermarket pumps develop higher pressures and speak to this very issue, that tolerances must be higher(and it goes without saying that the fuel must not fail specs). Most people dont realize that much of the gas you buy actually fails the shipping spec, its NEVER tested for spec at the pump.
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  #50  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:03 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
That is easy for you to say... you are allegedly sitting on a 10 year/120K mile HPFP warranty....


+1.
Yep and I plan on keeping my car for the long haul, so replacing a $20,000 engine sounds alot worse than taking the car in for a fuel pump replacement under warranty. If I were in a lease, I wouldnt give a crap about engine longevity. We shall see in about 5 years how well the gunked up direct injected audis/vws and mazdas hold up in the long run. If the past is any indication, the audis/ vws and mazdas will not do so well(remember sludge formation in the 1.8T). Another thing I came across was that the solenoid activated injectors on the audis have a high failure rate, that will be expensive in the coming years.
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